Is there any logical reason why the unit requires soldiers to take a weekly PT test when they are 90 days out from any school?

2016-06-08T08:41:41-04:00

I'm not complaining about doing it, but im trying to see this from the BDE CSM's pov. Why does he think that all soldiers that are going to ANY school must take a weekly PT test. I could see if if the soldiers were borderline, but regardless of your score we still need to take a new test every week followed by height/weight right after.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2016 8:48 AM

2016-06-08T08:48:48-04:00

If you fail a APFT during a school, the Coc/NCO Support Channel catch backlash. Units may possibly lose slots for that school in the future. Schools boot Soldiers for failing (while I was in). I've seen the "1 APFT within a month of leaving for a course" but weekly must be a pain.

On the bright side, It's only an APFT and you're done.

Just read the end. Height/weight weekly probably means someone is borderline.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2016 8:54 AM

2016-06-08T08:54:52-04:00

Rather than focusing on borderline Soldiers, it is easier to just create local policy or SOP ensuring ALL NCO's take mandatory APFT's prior to attending PME. I think anything less would create "grey areas".

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2016 9:10 AM

2016-06-08T09:10:31-04:00

Sounds like you unit CSM has trust issues. I worked BDE schools for about a year and we gave a PT Test 30 days out (only for schools that required it). Schools like BLC and Ranger were monitored a little more closely.. but never a weekly PT test. there really isn't a logical reason in doing this besides he's the CSM and he can.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2016 9:10 AM

2016-06-08T09:10:35-04:00

Maybe you should ask your leadership, what the logic is; perhaps they know and if not, they may ask the CSM. I'm sure all assumptions are in line with what you're going to find out straight from the horse's mouth.

Response by CW3(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2016 9:13 AM

2016-06-08T09:13:10-04:00

the only thing i can think of is if the soldier could use some work on their overall score or may be teetering on the line of the height/weight requirements

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Jun 8 at 2016 9:29 AM

2016-06-08T09:29:58-04:00

The only reason I can fathom is that there are a lot of people who are failing the initial PT test or height/weight upon checking in at the school house. I know when we're going to the school house, we have to have our tests/height/weight certified within 30 days of checking into the school otherwise we'd have to do them again. To require you guys to do it weekly tells me that there are people being sent back from the school house for failure to comply with the basic requirements of attendance.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2016 9:40 AM

2016-06-08T09:40:26-04:00

The only thing I can think of is that in his previous and current posting(s), there have been SMs under him that have arrived to their schools only to turn around and come back after failing an APFT. The Soldiers AND their COC/COS can get some serious heat for school house APFT failures. But then, that is the only logical thing I can think of. Personally, I think weekly APFTs are a tad excessive. My directive would be perhaps every two weeks prior to the school to ensure standards are good.....depending on how far out from the school date you are. Talk with your NCOs about this if you haven't done so. Perhaps there was a directive pushed from the BDE CSM explaining why. As for HT/WT....same logic (mine anyway) applies.

Response by CPT Mark Gonzalez made Jun 8 at 2016 9:41 AM

2016-06-08T09:41:21-04:00

I believe his logic may be, train like your fight or in this case train like you test. The training is a good habit and can only result in a better score, unless injured. Overall the diagnostic APFT's are a light workout and can only help.

Response by LTC Kevin B. made Jun 8 at 2016 9:56 AM

2016-06-08T09:56:35-04:00

I can think of two possible reasons (although there certainly may be more). First, the Bde CSM may have been burned in the past with a soldier failing an APFT (or body fat) while attending a school. Thus, the policy could be an overboard attempt by a risk adverse CSM to avoid that ever happening again. Second, the Bde CSM may have simply wanted to establish and implement a policy that doesn't target or publicly identify any specific marginal soldiers. Therefore, everyone gets treated the same.

While this wouldn't be my approach, I wouldn't be bothered by it if I were in that unit. After all, an APFT is nothing more than a structured PT session, and everyone has to do PT on a regular basis. The only real issue would be if it were a record APFT every single week. Most troops tend to push themselves really hard when they know it is for record, so that can be problematic when taking a record APFT every week (the body does need recovery time). However, if it's just an informal APFT to make sure that you're not borderline, I'd let up a little and not kill myself for the extra few points here and there. I was always a 270+ on the APFT. If it were an unofficial APFT, I wouldn't have a problem with being somewhat below that mark. The body fat measurement issue isn't a big deal. Someone should always be in compliance there, and it doesn't involve strenuous activity.

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2016 10:33 AM

2016-06-08T10:33:55-04:00

Not something I have done in the past. Seems a bit over the top. Have you tried asking you Platoon Sergeant? He may be able shed some light on it.

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Jun 8 at 2016 10:48 AM

2016-06-08T10:48:02-04:00

SGT Laura Delgadillo If the CSM has not given you or the class any explanation maybe the instructors have some insights as to his rationale. Hopefully he is not merely acting like a jerk because he can get away with it. Let us know if you find out anything..

Response by SPC Sheila Lewis made Jun 8 at 2016 11:01 AM

2016-06-08T11:01:18-04:00

keeps You on your toes.

Response by SSG Pete Fleming made Jun 8 at 2016 11:04 AM

2016-06-08T11:04:21-04:00

The military is notorious for mass punishment. Though this is not punishment in the usual sense, it still is. The idea that a few did something wrong, got drunk, failed a PT test, showed up late for formation, whatever... then command creates the overbearing need to ensure no one does. SO then they punish the guilty and the innocent equally. If 98% of your soldiers do really good on the PT test why punish them because t 2% don't? If one soldier got a DUI why lock down the entire unit?

In civilian terms it's like a mass shooting, what is the first thing everyone says? Gun control. Why punish the millions of law abiding safe gun owners because of 1 nut job?

The same applies to the military, punish those who are bad at PT, drink too much, have difficulty showing up on time. Make examples out of them if you must but stop punishing everyone. It kills morale, it does nothing to fix the problem, because the bad apples are still bad, but now you have contaminated the entire batch because of outdated ideology that punishing everyone will fix it. It doesn't.

LA and Chicago have the strictest gun control laws, and the highest gun related crime rates. It is a good thing that all those good people who never do anything wrong can't buy guns and protect themselves from the bad. Just as it is a good thing that all those people who train hard and do their PT... will still do their PT, while the others will still slack off.

Punish the individual wrong doer, not the entire group. Guilt by association is not a reason but an excuse of tyrants.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Jun 8 at 2016 11:12 AM

2016-06-08T11:12:12-04:00

When you have had people returned to the unit after failing to qualify at school, you develope an attitude!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2016 11:19 AM

2016-06-08T11:19:48-04:00

I don't see anything wrong with this at all. CSM's catch a ton of hell when a soldier goes to school and fails the APFT or height and weight. If I was a CSM I would do the same thing.

Response by SGT Frank Pritchett made Jun 8 at 2016 11:25 AM

2016-06-08T11:25:43-04:00

I don't think it is a PT test but a diagnostic test and you chain of command can do that at any time, for me I don't condone it but it is legal.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2016 11:41 AM

2016-06-08T11:41:52-04:00

Look at it like this. You will be assured to show up and have no issue with the PT test. Your CSM will be assured that he has no failure to complete the course. It doesn't hurt you, only makes you better. The APFT is a fairly light PT day, and you don't have to mess around with company PT. Win Win situation. I'm in!

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2016 1:09 PM

2016-06-08T13:09:42-04:00

SGT Laura Delgadillo I think the point every body is leaving out in this discussion, further than the backlash to the Unit, etc. is that there is a cost to the Unit to send you to school. There is a budget to send Soldiers to these development courses and if the Soldier fails, the Unit lose the money invested on him/her. So, further than just making sure that you'll pass that APFT whenever you get to school, they are making sure they don't waste money on you. As for School costs to the Unit, I really don't know but I heard BLC is about $5k/Soldier. SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4" and MSG Private RallyPoint Member correct me if I am wrong.

Response by SFC J Fullerton made Jun 8 at 2016 1:22 PM

2016-06-08T13:22:20-04:00

Sounds like overkill. However, perhaps the intent is to "train" the Soldiers on taking a NCOES APFT. Once a week would count as a "muscle failure" PT session designed to build strength and endurance for the 3 events. Proper form and execution are just as important. If that is the intent, its not really a "test" but more like practice through repetition.

Response by CPT Joseph K Murdock made Jun 8 at 2016 1:48 PM

2016-06-08T13:48:11-04:00

It brings great shame to have NCOs and Officers kicked out of school do to APFT failure.

Response by CW2 Stephen Pate made Jun 8 at 2016 4:16 PM

2016-06-08T16:16:59-04:00

Is this the case that you had to take a company level APFT, then a BN level APFT, then a BDE level APFT? I've seen that happen a lot. 1SG isn't gonna let you take BNs test unless you pass at the company and then it goes the same way all the way up the chain of command.

Response by MSG Pat Colby made Jun 8 at 2016 5:07 PM

2016-06-08T17:07:00-04:00

Personally I have no issue with this. It's not a trust issue nor is it toxic or micromanaging. You want to "deploy" to a school? Freaking keep yourself in optimal shape and be ready to meet the Standards every week. Unless you are shamed into MAXing it, then just do what you gotta do and quitcherbitchin'.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2016 6:32 PM

2016-06-08T18:32:08-04:00

I can understand the "Backlash" from in school APRT failure. Why make those that are not borderline to failure do that? Maybe by the time they arrive at their school they will fail being burnt out from all the APRT testing. My .2.

Response by LTC Marc King made Jun 8 at 2016 7:44 PM

2016-06-08T19:44:59-04:00

A senior Noncommissioned Officer setting a high bar and maintaining standards... Kudos to the Bde CSM!

Response by 1SG Dennis Hicks made Jun 8 at 2016 7:45 PM

2016-06-08T19:45:13-04:00

When slots are at a premium for NCOES it only makes sense that a unit send those that can meet the standards, in my day many Soldiers were booted from schools for failing APFT's and SUDDENLY not making tape. All those wasted slots and that's what they are WASTED could have gone to Soldiers that could have made the standards. I don't know about weekly testing though, as I see it there is a chance to injure a Soldier whop scores well on APFT's if you make them take it weekly but that's a risk assessment issue. I got burned twice by Soldiers getting sent back and I made sure it didn't happen again, before I retired it was a big deal that could lead to repercussions from higher and a case of the ass from me.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 9 at 2016 3:37 AM

2016-06-09T03:37:49-04:00

You can be given an APFT at anytime to see where the Soldier is, and it's good practice. The more you do something the better you get at it. So when it is time for a record APFT/School you are prepared.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 9 at 2016 12:27 PM

2016-06-09T12:27:14-04:00

The CSM or higher leaders have probably been burned by Soldiers being certified by the unit and failing to meet the admission PRT/APFT for their NCOA course, Airborne School or other military school requiring the Soldier to take one upon arrival.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 9 at 2016 1:40 PM

2016-06-09T13:40:01-04:00

I see how it could seem like a lot of pain retesting a Soldier until they leave for a school. Ideally, I think leadership test a potential Soldier is because those slots are so vital. If a unit decides to approve a school request and a Soldier for example flunks the APFT. Not only will they probably lose a slot, but it also looks bad on the unit and Soldier. The basic prerequisites of attending a School, is to be physically fit. And to take a risk on a Soldier by assuming a Soldier is in shape, is a risk most units will not take. So they constantly test you to avoid any embarrassment of you not being physically capable. Also by testing you, I think it helps to correct any weaknesses you have in completing the test. Maybe you're a weak runner or you constantly fail PUs or SUs. I've seen where a Soldier was preparing for an NCOES school and he never could pass the run or he was always borderline. His unit gave him a weekly APFT and he steadily improved. Just my opinion though. Good post!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 9 at 2016 1:40 PM

2016-06-09T13:40:08-04:00

I think units should place more of an emphasis on obtaining a Master Fitness Instructor within its ranks to deal with these issues on a more educated level. Rather than constantly using the APFT to train for an APFT.

Response by SGT Christopher Remy made Jun 9 at 2016 2:11 PM

2016-06-09T14:11:56-04:00

We had a policy that you would take a company/battery/troop APFT. If you passed it, you'd take one at the battalion/squadron level, and a final one would be administered by brigade/regiment. This was mandatory to be authorized for school. There were thresholds in place which constituted a retest as well (e.g. have to be at least 2% away from body fat requirements).

It worked pretty well, because in-school failures for PT pretty much disappeared (a few came up, but it was far and few between).

This wasn't extreme in my opinion for much of the reasons already stated. An APFT should be an easy morning.

Response by CPT John Arnold made Jun 9 at 2016 3:07 PM

2016-06-09T15:07:08-04:00

When you become a company 1SG some day, you will realize just how important this will be to keep the BDE CSM off your ass. To many service members are taking slots that go wasted for soldiers failing PT Test's and the slot at the school goes unfilled. Waste of budget dollars and to the rest of the soldiers that didn't get in who can pass there APFT. Always has been an issue.

Response by SSG Joseph Henderson made Jun 9 at 2016 3:09 PM

2016-06-09T15:09:11-04:00

Every week is pointless. Everywhere I was stationed the CSM usually had it done once a month but not every week. He must have had more than one soldier fail and really had his feelings hurt. Trying to really cover their ass now.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 10 at 2016 9:38 AM

2016-06-10T09:38:26-04:00

It's because of the rate of soldiers that have slid through the cracks and made it to schools over weight and physically not fit. That reflects back on the chain of command and big Army see's this and all parties concerned come under fire for sending a soldier whi is unable to meet the standard to graduate that school.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 10 at 2016 12:24 PM

2016-06-10T12:24:40-04:00

Unit SOP usually, because although PT is an individual responsibility... It's not. Your entire chain of NCO's will catch a lot of flak for the SM's failure to meet the standard.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2016 3:52 PM

2016-06-14T15:52:03-04:00

The argument that people are going to schools and failing the APFT is the possible reason shows that perhaps there are a lot of people on RP that have observed this over the years.
From my foxhole, who cares. The NCOs are most likely doing their best to motivate their team to pass the APFT and then when a troop gets to school, they mess up and get sent home. Good. Then we will either have a Soldier on the way out soon or who reforms themselves, gets the GO signed memo to return to school and becomes better in the end.
Mass punishment in this case (and yes, taking away from the Esprit de Corps of morning PT is punishment for the whole organization.....that's why we do it every day right? APFT is a personal thing...) does not solve the problem.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 15 at 2017 4:26 PM

2017-09-15T16:26:16-04:00

That's ridiculous waste of time. You have to have a current PT test 30 days before any NCOES school and no requirement for most MOS reclasses

Response by SPC Thomas Smith made Nov 17 at 2018 9:43 PM

2018-11-17T21:43:52-05:00

Ok before I read any other replied I want to give my answer. It's because you can no longer single out an individual, because you would hurt the poor babies feelings. So everyone must pay for the ones that are falling short so they don't feel hurt. It comes with the politically correct nature that has been natured in our young people today. There is no individual responsibility anymore. While I admit it could help team moral to know the group is there for each other it can also destroy a strong group that feels they are being punished for no reason. Also it does not point out who needs help and allow the group to choose to help the weak.

Response by SGT Donald Croswhite made Nov 19 at 2018 2:34 AM

2018-11-19T02:34:03-05:00

I was the Battalion schools NCO. A LTC and SGM actually get gigged when a solider fails out off a school due to APFT. BDE even gets backlash. Most the time we did a weekly schools APFT, run by BDE. This included BLC, ALC and Pre Ranger testing. The time, money and slots that a unit has is watched all the way up. And if somebody wastes those, it's bad.

Response by LTC Stephan Porter made Nov 19 at 2018 11:19 PM

2018-11-19T23:19:38-05:00

What’s the issue...?

Other than resting a few days before heading to school, what’s the issue?

Response by CPT Larry Hudson made Dec 13 at 2018 8:10 PM

2018-12-13T20:10:53-05:00

It is a measure of the physical fitness of the unit. Typical, after basic and training schools, military becomes pretty much routine affair and does not typically include keeping physically fit. Objective of all units of military is to be trained physically as well as technically to respond to any and all orders that arise. Stay trim; stay fit and you have no problems.