Is there a time limitation on a decision for a chapter?

2016-07-11T14:24:17-04:00

It was initiated september of last year. I have now officially been a pfc for 2 years and am barred from reenlistment or promotion until a decision is made. I am curious if they wait too long does it get dropped? I tried looking it up in the regulation but I'm having difficulty finding any answers.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 11 at 2016 2:47 PM

2016-07-11T14:47:37-04:00

What type of chapter is this? Voluntary early separation? Pregnancy chapter? Failing your PT test? If you're being chaptered then that means you're booted out of the Army. If you're not being booted out and your unit is holding this "chapter" over you, then you need to head to IG and get them involved. If there is no paperwork justifying why you're being barred from reenlistment and promotion and you're not being counseled on it monthly, then that's not a lot to stand on. But I'm not privy to your situation. I can only go by what you're saying. If the open door policy isn't working for your 1SG, BN CSM or BDE CSM, then IG is the place to go. Commanders, 1SGs along with CSMs like their careers and don't like when someone or an office at the division or corps level is involved in a situation they can't handle. Heads will roll

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 11 at 2016 4:02 PM

2016-07-11T16:02:31-04:00

question do you have jag lawyer

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Jul 11 at 2016 5:39 PM

2016-07-11T17:39:09-04:00

PFC Private RallyPoint Member Sorry to hear you have wound up in this unfortunate situation . You seem to have gotten some good insights and advice here on RP and hopefully your counsel has or is taking an active interest in yr case and strongly advocating for you. Best wishes and if you are successful in being retained pls let RP know how you did.

Response by CSM James Winslow made Jul 12 at 2016 6:53 AM

2016-07-12T06:53:03-04:00

Lots of good advice here. good Luck!

Response by PVT William Bresch made Jul 12 at 2016 7:57 AM

2016-07-12T07:57:33-04:00

Keep fighting, never give up, never give in. That's what command wants so, they can pound on the chest and laugh in your face, saying we beat you. Go to fb, twitter, let the world know . the rules are stale and need to be changed. Those who make the laws, control the laws. Be a trendsetter, take them all down. Just because you have a rank of PFC, does not meant, you aren't above a general. Become a legal threat, make them sweat, make them cower, make them fear you and make it known, you will bring legal vengeance on those who choose to break the law, for their own prosperity.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2016 8:07 AM

2016-07-12T08:07:40-04:00

You should go see legal and talk to them about your options. Remember, legal are there mostly for the commanders but they will tell you the right path to take.

If your married, they will say your spouse should be helping with your children so you can get to work.

FTR is not an excuse, but if you know your late, you should call your nco.

Response by SPC Jamie Carkees made Jul 12 at 2016 8:45 AM

2016-07-12T08:45:31-04:00

I use to be a Unit Administrator for the Army Reserves. I handled a lot of Packets. Although there is a time limit to process the packet for separation or promotions, there is no actual time limit to my understanding on how long it can sit on the desk of a commander at the higher level before the separation documents are signed and orders are cut. Most of the time these packets have to go before a board of people to review, and go through several levels of higher command before the final decision is made. More often than not packets are sent back for little tiny corrections and it can take a long time. I have gotten packets back after they where submitted 2 years later. I was a SPC and because I had weight control problems I was in the same boat you are. I was in for 11 years before I was finally told I could not reenlist. IF you really want to reenlist depending on what your packet is for your Commander can actually extend your contract instead of reenlisting you. But that is also commanders discretion.

Response by SPC David DE Jesus made Jul 12 at 2016 9:33 AM

2016-07-12T09:33:30-04:00

When you cannot find the answer to your questions, I would suggest going to speak with JAG. Depending on what you did or did not do does have a determination based on an ongoing investigation. It however should not have taken this long.

Response by PFC Agostino Miraglia made Jul 12 at 2016 10:23 AM

2016-07-12T10:23:26-04:00

Are you looking to chapter? Because I would never chapter, period. Get your honorable whatever it takes, do the can do, rock of the marne, hooah thing, any soldier would do, and that should answer your question, f all the bs. Get your honorable. Can do, Rock of the Marne, Hooah, you'll be in my prayers!

Response by SSG David Spooner made Jul 12 at 2016 10:28 AM

2016-07-12T10:28:46-04:00

The responses that you are getting on here are correct in regards to go up the COC, not around it. If you play by the book it will only make you look like a trustworthy and honest Soldier that just wants her career back. Lean forward in the foxhole and good luck.

Response by PFC Leander Yazzie made Jul 12 at 2016 10:56 AM

2016-07-12T10:56:51-04:00

Being barred from anything while awaiting chapter for any reason is never a good sign.
While waiting continue to do what you've been doing, try to help as many as possible talk with your 1Sgt if he/she is no help go for the top your unit CSM.
Go to JAG if all else fails it maybe a legal matter your unit forgot to inform you about.
In the mean time keep your head up, nose clean ain't no discharge on the ground yet.
Help others and leave your unit and the army a positive role model.

Response by SPC Douglas Hemmingway made Jul 12 at 2016 11:54 AM

2016-07-12T11:54:32-04:00

PFC Geigel, I believe that the Senior NCOs and the Field Grade who've given you their advice may have done the best they can. I never found myself in this situation in the last unit I was in. I was ARNG and for my first twelve years I was mostly in units that were all male. The 242nd Engineer Company (Dump Truck) was my last unit and we had both males and females. I don't remember during my three years and six months in the Deuce hearing that any of the female personnel had an issue similar to yours. I would say follow the advice of the Major and the Senior NCOs who responded to your post. Go to your first line supervisor and your S6 shop commander and then the HQ Company 1SG and CO and see what needs to be done to stay in. That is if that is what you want to do. I have been out of the service since 13 January 2002 so much has likely changed since my time. I can only advise going through Chain of Command. At least you didn't try to do a make up APFT and do the push ups on a polished hardwood basketball court floor that was also the Drill Floor for the State HQ's Armory. I got through seventeen of the PUs and my left hand slid out from under me and I nosed dived into the drill floor. The SFC administering the test would not reschedule until two weeks after my ETS date. If you want to stay in fight for your career, become all you can be and show the NCOs and Officers in your unit you mean it.

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Jul 12 at 2016 12:40 PM

2016-07-12T12:40:41-04:00

PFC Caitlynn Geigel I'm NOT a barracks lawyer. You have been given some SOLID advise by the NCO's and the Officers on here. I cannot tell you to do a damn thing, but I will WARN you of ONE thing "Keep fighting, never give up, never give in. That's what command wants so, they can pound on the chest and laugh in your face, saying we beat you. Go to fb, twitter, let the world know . the rules are stale and need to be changed. Those who make the laws, control the laws. Be a trendsetter, take them all down. Just because you have a rank of PFC, does not meant, you aren't above a general. Become a legal threat, make them sweat, make them cower, make them fear you and make it known, you will bring legal vengeance on those who choose to break the law, for their own prosperity". DO NOT do ANY of what that post says. You can be dead wrong and dead right at the same time.I would want to see you continue the good fight, get knowledgeable. Ask these leaders on here what do I need to do? If you were my NCO what would you do? Look for perspectives. You will be surprised to find that the SGT(P), SGM M, and MAJ B all are solid in their responses and more than likely are going to give you a hard truth that isn't sexy or fun. LISTEN TO THEM. At this point this thread is done. If you feel the need to talk more, contact them individually or in a group email...BEHIND THE SCENES. I'm posting this response not to degrade the poster, but to highlight it is more emotion based, than factual based. At this time, you can put emotions in your back pocket and deal with them later. It's business time and either you listen to them, and fight for what you want, or allow your emotions to take over and loose EVERYTHING you want. DO NOT....I REPEAT DO NOT take this on FB, twitter, or any other social media site. What you may think cannot be seen CAN be seen and used against you. This is as far as your use of Social Media should go. If you have paperwork, and the leaders are willing to look at it, take out the names and unit, then send it to them for review. You can make SGM as a dumbass, but this one isn't one. You can make MAJ as an asshole. He's firm, but not asshole firm, and SGT(P) is only a promotion title. He is a NCO with the rank of SGT soon to be SSG. More than likely the fact he took the time to continue speaking to you shows someone WANTS to see the right thing happen to you. DO NOT I ASK YOU TO DO NOT go on any other social medium and ask a damn thing else. No posting, no questions, no super-vet pages on FB. YOU WILL LOOSE, and they will make fun of you while you're trying to figure out your next move.

I am a dickhead, an asshole, whatever you want to call me, but remember this; I am a NCO. You're not the first to be in this situation, and you won't be the last. Learn the regs NOW, and not just the part that suits you. KNOW what each and every piece of paper means. If you are not sure, ask them to explain it before you sign. Know your penalties. Know your rewards. Be an asset to yourself. If you even are sent home, what you went through can be a case study that you can inform others on. More than one way to serve. I tell Soldiers all the time about my fuck ups. It lets them know I do have a reasonable clue as to what I'm talking about, especially when it's in direct comparison to what they are going through. I wish you the best, and no matter what happens, you tried. That is more than most of the folks have done in America. Keep your head up, maintain your bearing, and keep it moving.

Response by SPC Phillip Sheldon made Jul 12 at 2016 12:53 PM

2016-07-12T12:53:04-04:00

AR 635-200 should have your answers. If you still can not find them there, then JAG is your next course of action

Response by SFC Lee Flowers made Jul 12 at 2016 3:30 PM

2016-07-12T15:30:38-04:00

No it does not get dropped, entirely up to your Commander. You are Flagged, that is the reason why nothing positive can happen to your career right now. Being Flagged stops all, promotions, reenlistments, reassignments, except for pay and allowances.

Response by SGT Scott Janko made Jul 12 at 2016 6:08 PM

2016-07-12T18:08:12-04:00

Go and talk to a jag officer that's a good start

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2016 6:28 PM

2016-07-12T18:28:41-04:00

It all depends on your circumstances based on what chapter? Best advice is to seek JAG and they will give you the options and course of action. I can say that I been chapter before and had restrictions in re-enlistment but I got back in. So nothing is impossible. Good luck.

Response by SGT John Beardsley made Jul 12 at 2016 6:31 PM

2016-07-12T18:31:32-04:00

You have received a lot of good advice from a lot of respectable people. As someone who went through a similar situation I'll add this: go talk to the IG now. Let your immediate supervisor know, but do NOT let your immediate chain of command intimidate you into not going. It is your right according to the UCMJ.

When I was in the situation I also did what the command hates above all other, I wrote to my congressman and senator. I was a Sgt at the time and believe me I was NOT very popular with my senior command or the other non-comms in my unit. I hated (!) doing it too, but it was my right and I felt I was being treated unfairly and that I had no recourse through my chain of command. The resultant investigation by both the IG and the congressional inquiry reached the same conclusion and ended the chapter proceedings.

According to the UCMJ there was not supposed to be any retaliation against me, but as a NCO I'd broken the unwritten code. The officers and non-commissioned officers of my unit treated me like a pariah. Some of the junior enlisted personnel thought it was cool that I'd "beaten the system" while others were confused . . . and some thought I'd taken advantage of some kind of loophole. I did accomplish what I wanted, which was to finish my enlistment and leave with an Honorable Discharge. I was on the promotion list for E6 prior to the chapter proceeding was started, but after the investigation my 1SGT and company commander reviewed my packet and ensured I didn't have the points to advance. At that point I didn't care and chose not to fight about that. I did not receive any kind of end of enlistment recognition . . . but there were no bars on the discharge and it was Honorable.

I'm not recommending going the congressional route, just letting you know about the option. I would advise that taking advantage of this right will not endear you with your command. It should only be used if you fully believe you have no fair chance to resolve the situation via your chain of command and/or the IG.

Best of luck to you.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2016 6:54 PM

2016-07-12T18:54:13-04:00

No, to answer your question there is no time limitation on a decision to chapter a soldier. Legally speaking it could take two days, or two years or two decades as dictated by the UCMJ depending on the circumstances of the chapter proceeding in question.
That being said you still maintain a right for the JAG Corps to reach their decision in an reasonable time frame and so those soldiers suggesting that you contact either IG or your JAG representative are absolutely correct in their recommendation. That being said... technically they could still tell you to pound sand and tie up your life for the next twenty years without consequences if they wanted to.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2016 7:02 PM

2016-07-12T19:02:29-04:00

not really.. If they are indeed pushing this for what you say happened you can utilize the open door policy of any commander or SGM in your chain of command. Be warned though they don't like BS and they will ask around about it -- meaning don't lie or omit key details/facts when you speak with them. If you still cant get this resolved you can talk to your IG. DO NOT go to IG first. This is the last place you want to use only when every other avenue has been explored. Your command also has to ensure you are given reasonable time to utilize these resources.

Their holding back your career progression is unacceptable - you need to get this worked out because these things have a nasty way of reappearing later down the road.

Response by SSG Mark Franzen made Jul 12 at 2016 7:21 PM

2016-07-12T19:21:11-04:00

WHAT CHAPTER 13 14 OR WHAT 15 SO NEED TO KNOW SO I CAN LOOK IT UP SO LET ME KNOW OK!

Response by SSG Mark Franzen made Jul 12 at 2016 7:25 PM

2016-07-12T19:25:00-04:00

AR635-200 WILL HELP UNDERSTAND BUT ONLY IF YOU KNOW WHAT CHAPTER IF ANY IF YOU NEED HELP ILL HELP YOU.

Response by SGT Stanley Bass made Jul 12 at 2016 9:48 PM

2016-07-12T21:48:42-04:00

As it relates to my medical Separation. there is no limitation. When mine started they told me it would be 6 months, 4 months later i called them and they said it was still on their desk. It would be another six months. So i called them 6 months later and was told it just went into the doctor. low and behold almost 2 years later i was out on a medical. I had also spoken with people that had been going through the process for 6 years. Therefore, I would imagine, a chapter seperation could take just as long.

Response by SSG Chris Restemayer made Jul 13 at 2016 1:17 AM

2016-07-13T01:17:32-04:00

I would recommend consulting IG and TDS (Trial Defense Services). Do not talk to JAG. JAG represents the Army. They can not represent you as an individual. TDS is a detachment that is tasked specifically with representing individual soldiers. In civilian terms, JAG are prosecutors; TDS are defense attorneys. You want the defense attorneys... and you have the right to consult with one because you are undergoing a chapter.

Now, chances are that they are not going to be able to do anything about the amount of time that its taken. That is just reality. Its going to take as long as it takes. However, it is important to get those assets on your side through this process. As a couple of people have mentioned, with the Chapter comes a FLAG, which means no promotions, etc. That is not the full story. Flags are administrative; not punitive. That is important. Units will try to use them as punishment, but they are NOT punishment. Period. Depending on how it disposes, you may be able to get those things back. One of my soldiers just finished a marathon Article 32 investigation and when it finally disposed in his favor, I successfully fought to not only get him his E-5 promotion that got squashed because of it, but got it backdated over a year with pay. Those services will be able to go through your case and tell you what kind of options you have available to you, both while its ongoing and after.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 13 at 2016 1:36 AM

2016-07-13T01:36:15-04:00

I can tell you that a bar to re-enlistment is only supposed to last for 6 months. I speak from experience on the bar. As for the chapter, I'm not certain. But if you need, I can look up everything to assist you in having the bar removed

Response by MSG Lance Kelly made Jul 13 at 2016 2:00 AM

2016-07-13T02:00:06-04:00

PFC Geigel, as a Chief Paralegal for the Reserves it pains me to see a separation packet take so long to get through the system, even more so being an active duty Soldier. In the Reserves you have a little more understanding because commander's are not always available to review and sign documents due to generally being in a duty status on only one weekend a month. This is still not an acceptable answer because you, as the Soldier, are being penalized the entire time by being flagged. As you have gathered from the abundance of advice given, their is no specific time limit, only a processing goal. Many factors come into play, like the change of command. When people tell you to talk to JAG they mean Trial Defense Services (TDS). Those are the attorneys that represent you in administrative and disciplinary matters. My role is I represent the commanders, but as an NCO I care for Soldiers and the due process you are entitled. You should have consulted with an attorney to go over your options and rights. I'm assuming that you have less than six years time in service and therefore are not entitled to a hearing before an administrative separation board unless the separation authority is considering an Other Than Honorable discharge. If your command has had any change of heart based on your performance they have the ability to request the packet be pulled back or that the separation authority give you a favorable discharge. A suspended sentence can be good in that with no further misconduct the action will close favorably, however it means you will continue to be flagged for the duration of the suspension which could be up to one year. I hope your situation works out in your favor and that you are able to continue your military career honorably. Thank you for your service to our nation.

Response by CPL Ricky Vasquez made Jul 13 at 2016 1:16 PM

2016-07-13T13:16:11-04:00

well... that just depends on the unit... I was separated for misconduct back in 2014... it only took 4 months max from the time I received my article 15... it just depends on the unit sweetie... remember every appointment you have is important... (VA Disability %)....

Response by SSG Mark Franzen made Jul 13 at 2016 4:53 PM

2016-07-13T16:53:42-04:00

Is For misconduct?

Response by SSG Robert Spina made Jul 13 at 2016 5:14 PM

2016-07-13T17:14:43-04:00

YOU NEED TO SPEAK TO A JAG OFFICER

Response by SSG Sarg Sarg made Jul 13 at 2016 7:59 PM

2016-07-13T19:59:51-04:00

How does your last evaluation report read.

Response by CPL Hays Hays made Jul 14 at 2016 2:55 PM

2016-07-14T14:55:28-04:00

Why are you getting chapter?

Response by SSG Mark Franzen made Jul 14 at 2016 8:44 PM

2016-07-14T20:44:28-04:00

WELL I WOULD SAY WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU HAD TALKED TO ANYONE ON THIS MATTER? ALSO I WOULD START BY CHECKING WITH YOUR SECTION SGT AND GO UP FROM THERE UNTIL YOU GET A ANSWER OKAY.

Response by SSG Richard Stevens made Jul 17 at 2016 12:53 PM

2016-07-17T12:53:07-04:00

As soon as a chapter, is started it has to be completed and the person, that is being chaptered is out at that time. If you are barred from reenlistment, it is final if it has been two years then your leaders must have stopped it.

Response by SGT Timothy Summers made Oct 1 at 2016 9:07 PM

2016-10-01T21:07:20-04:00

what was the chapter initiated for?