Is public burning of a flag not Arson rather than an expression of one's 1st Amendment rights?

SGT Joseph Goldman — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 13:21:05 -0400

If one is protected on a Federal level can that individual be prosecuted on a state level? Does this individual fall under Arson or 1st Amendment?

Response by SSG Ed Mikus made Jul 1 at 2015 1:24 PM

SSG Ed Mikus — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 13:24:53 -0400

I vote felony arson, or nationalist hate crime

Response by SGT Joseph Goldman made Jul 1 at 2015 1:26 PM

SGT Joseph Goldman — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 13:26:08 -0400

Remember, you need to have your Law caps on for this one! It is not as simple as one might initially believe!

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2015 1:31 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 13:31:13 -0400

It's Arson if the flag does not belong to you; it may be freedom of expression if the flag does belong to you and there is no public danger from the act/flames. Unless a law is passed that meets the test of challenging expression, it is what it is. Far better to have the option of 1,000 people waving freely waving flags, even if we allow one to burn.

Response by CPT Ahmed Faried made Jul 1 at 2015 1:31 PM

CPT Ahmed Faried — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 13:31:38 -0400

Already adjudicated by SCOTUS.

Response by SSG Izzy Abbass made Jul 1 at 2015 1:31 PM

SSG Izzy Abbass — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 13:31:45 -0400

While I know it's a 1st Amendment Right, I'm not a fan of it. However, we did all serve so that anyone can express themselves. There's no amendment that says we have to like their message. I am a firm believer that our country and our flag represent something stronger than the actual burning itself. It's a tough old flag and while one my be burned now and then, the things it symbolizes are not being burned themselves.

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Jul 1 at 2015 1:33 PM

Cpl Jeff N. — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 13:33:08 -0400

It depends on whose flag that is. If they stole it and are burning it, it could be theft and arson. The reason I say that is the flag has the gold trim on it and looks to be on a more official standard. If it is their flag, then it is, unfortunately, covered under the first amendment. This action is considered speech, I know, speech is normally when your lips are moving.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Jul 1 at 2015 1:40 PM

SGT Ben Keen — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 13:40:19 -0400

I think everyone of the 750,000+ members of RallyPoint will agree that we don't like to see the flag that we defended, the flag that we wore, the flag that covered many of our brothers and sisters-in-arms for their final trip home treated in such a manner. We also know that it is a 1st Ammendment Right fro people to express themselves as they see fit. We don't have to agree with it or take part in it but we fought for these idiots to have the right to try and make a statement from behind their masks.

Is it arson? I would say maybe. Keeping the definition in mind of arson as setting another person's property on fire, can we call it arson if the idiots go out and buy a flag then set fire to it? It's their property.

Either way, it makes my stomach twist in knots to see this.

Response by 1SG Jason Turner made Jul 1 at 2015 2:01 PM

1SG Jason Turner — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 14:01:41 -0400

That question depends on if it's the American Flag;

Source: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/700

18 U.S. Code § 700 - Desecration of the flag of the United States; penalties

(a)
(1) Whoever knowingly mutilates, defaces, physically defiles, burns, maintains on the floor or ground, or tramples upon any flag of the United States shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both.

(2) This subsection does not prohibit any conduct consisting of the disposal of a flag when it has become worn or soiled.

(b) As used in this section, the term “flag of the United States” means any flag of the United States, or any part thereof, made of any substance, of any size, in a form that is commonly displayed.

(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed as indicating an intent on the part of Congress to deprive any State, territory, possession, or the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico of jurisdiction over any offense over which it would have jurisdiction in the absence of this section.

18 U.S. Code § 700 - Desecration of the flag of the United States; penalties | US Law | LII /...

For information regarding constitutionality of this section as amended by Pub. L. 101–131, see Congressional Research Service, The Constitution of the United States of America: Analysis and Interpretation, Appendix 1, Acts of Congress Held Unconstitutional in Whole or in Part by the Supreme Court of the United States.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Jul 1 at 2015 2:04 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 14:04:19 -0400

Most towns and especially cities have a burn ban. At any rate, I'd love to help them by squirting lighter fluid on the fire. I don't even need to tell them. I can just show up and spray it everywhere. I seriously hope they don't catch anyone else or anything on fire but if they did, I won't feel sorry for them.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Jul 1 at 2015 2:18 PM

Maj Chris Nelson — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 14:18:21 -0400

While I don't LIKE the way the court system has defined it as being a 1st amendment right, here is my take on it. Arson (MY opinion, maybe not legally exact): burning other people's property causing monetary harm/destruction of said property, or your own property for gain (such as insurance fraud). 1st Amendment Right: defined as freedom of speech (and we all know more or less what this is). My TAKE AWAY on this: If the idiot that wants to burn, walk on, or otherwise desecrate the symbol of the USA, they need to buy their own flag. While they are protected by the 1st Amendment to do what they want in the "spirit of freedom" they also run the risk of having others disagree. IF they TAKE MY flag and burn it, then I think they could be charged with theft and arson....although not sure about arson, as there is no real monetary value on this that would be submitted for insurance. Remember, theft is misdemeanor until a $$ threshold has been met, then jumps to felony. Unless you attach money to it, not sure it will be considered arson. A symbol (the American Flag) is just that... a Symbol. It means exactly what the individual feels that it means..... similar to a cross, golden calf, etc. Unless they stop selling flags, and they become an issue item AND the law starts protecting them, under the guise that they are all public property (like parks etc), they are still personal property and can be treated as the individual that purchased it deems right/desired.

Response by Cpl Benjamin Long made Jan 4 at 2021 1:41 PM

Cpl Benjamin Long — Mon, 04 Jan 2021 13:41:59 -0500

Only if you convince a DA to take it up, and even at that it can be challenged to SCOTUS