Is our military today a volunteer military or volunteer mercenaries?

2014-10-15T13:31:55-04:00

The constant demand for more special duty pays and allowances and medals well beyond a generous combat zone tax exclusion--even before we have deployed makes me wonder if we have lost sight of selfless service and accomplishing the mission...

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 15 at 2014 2:24 PM

2014-10-15T14:24:43-04:00

I would yes its more of a volunteer Military the thing that a lot of people are looking at it now after talking with some, is that it has turned into a job replacement because of how the economy was. That was the benefactor right there, but then some of those guys that want the job are the ones fighting to keep it.

Theres a lot of difference between the services on who gets what and how they get it. Some of the pays and allowences that they get i dont really agree with it because 1. you signed up so why should you get an allownece becasue you have to live in a tent? That makes no sense to me. and 2. a lot of the ones that get the entitlements like i sad work for it and show you the reason why they are here.

But then you have the guys that go out there and perform the same jobs as the military that get paid more. Now you have to look at it in 2 different ways, were they forced out due to budget cuts or failed to make the next grade, but loved what they did? Or are they taking there training for good use and makeing the best of what they know.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 15 at 2014 2:52 PM

2014-10-15T14:52:46-04:00

Less pay doesn't keep the door kickers in. It allows companies in the private sector to get the best and brightest from our ranks. We have to continue to pay Soldiers for hardships endured. Or the only thing you'll get is people that aren't committed to the mission. Money is a motivational factor. But it isn't why special forces, operators, seals, MARSOC, and rangers continue to do what they do. They do it for those that are too afraid to. The sacrifices their families make are what the pay is for. My 42 cents, SGM

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Oct 15 at 2014 3:03 PM

2014-10-15T15:03:19-04:00

I may be a professional soldier, but I am not a mercenary. A mercenary care not one whit for who he works for. Loyalty goes to the money not who he is fighting for. I DO care who I work for. My loyalty is to my nation, not the paycheck. While pay is important, I bet if you polled the entire military, pay is probably not going to be at the top of the list of why people serve....

Response by COL Timothy S. made Oct 15 at 2014 3:36 PM

2014-10-15T15:36:02-04:00

I've long found the notion of service because of special duty pay and allowances rather than out of a sense of duty or the desire to serve something greater than yourself. To me, it flies in the face of "Selfless Service."

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Oct 15 at 2014 3:47 PM

2014-10-15T15:47:41-04:00

I think the distinction lies in the employer. Soldiering for an individual or business makes you a mercenary. Soldiering for a Country makes you military...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 15 at 2014 4:36 PM

2014-10-15T16:36:45-04:00

SGM Private RallyPoint Member,

Without a doubt the majority of us serve selflessly. How many professions can you list where its members will willingly lay down life and limb? It's a very short list. We can observe the recent actions of the Iraqi military if you'd like a comparison. They run away from the fight, we run to it.

I'm also curious who is demanding special pay and allowances. I've never seen a Soldier demand anything of the sort. How does one go about demanding something like that? Rather, what I witness is Soldiers taking what's given.

Now, when I'm deployed should I demand to pay taxes in a country I'm not even working or living in? Check out the IRS regs for civilians working overseas, if they stay off US soil they don't pay income tax either so I don't see much of a discussion there. Next there's hostile fire pay. I'll admit the rules have been a little lax about what qualifies and what doesn't, but that is no longer the case. The last "perk" which comes to mind is family separation pay (FSA) which equates to $8.33/day. What it all boils down to is a few hundred extra dollars a month every month I'm deployed.

My wife and child are still at home, bills need to be paid, and if we're lucky at the end of the month we can put some in savings or invest for retirement. Deployments actually allow us to save a little.

The day that the American people think I don't need enough pay to provide for my family will be the day I will no longer feel the need to risk my life defending them. And that's where I'm a mercenary. I love my fellow Soldiers, and I love my Nation, but not at the sacrifice of the health and welfare of my family.

Response by SGT Richard H. made Oct 15 at 2014 8:45 PM

2014-10-15T20:45:44-04:00

Hmmm...Mercenary? I don't think so. Sure soldiers want more pay. When it takes 6-8 years to get to the wage that an oil drilling company pays a brand new guy with little to no experience, I don't think an extra $200 or so a month is asking too much for a guy to go to combat. You'd be hard pressed to find a mercenary or 'contractor' to even answer the phone for that, let alone leave the house.

Maybe service isn't as selfless as it once was...or maybe it is, and the pay scales for it have (somewhat) followed the cost of living.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2014 12:28 AM

2014-10-16T00:28:27-04:00

I will approach it from another angle. I think it's a two way street here. Unfortunately, the military now is treated more like a business so that's how its ran. Personnel are shuffled like a deck of cards. One minute we need you really bad another minute here's the door. Good personnel get jaded because their careers fall short due to not being able to meet check boxes in time due to ops tempo and deploying. It's not uncommon in the AD AF to have someone who has pulled more of their weight by deploying on a short notice over and over but get passed over for someone who managed to stay in garrison most their career by being able to accomplish those standout items on OPR or PRF.

That's how it is. If they have a huge demand they will offer bonuses on both sides. If they don't here is your voluntary sep pay.

I think in a big picture society is different now also. I will assume that a good deal people are not always joining just for god and country anymore. Now there is more access to education and more opportunities to go to trade schools colleges and get jobs in the corporate that may have been there in the previous years. Before there was a lot access to education back in the day the military was pretty much the main way to learn a skill or get the GI bill.

The current generation is more narcissistic than the past. Now everyone is growing up that they should figure out how to make the next billion dollar i Phone app or become the next idol. Everything is now being centered on me. That is the way world works now.

Even the dedicated at some point in a world where you may not be appreciated for your craft do get jaded and will want to leave and find other work if they do not feel incentives to stay. I have seen good pilots turn down the 6 figure retention bonus because they were tired of being jerked around or their career was going no where all due to politics.

Maybe if the military can get rid of the politics and go back to competency than people will be more inclined to stay in. I have little faith those things will happen anytime soon if at all.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Oct 20 at 2014 5:02 PM

2014-10-20T17:02:03-04:00

I deployed in a mercenary mindset on both of my deployments. It was more the training- the experience- than the pay that motivated me. War is a better instructor than any other, and the Corps and its current war afforded me the opportunity to learn better than I could have under any other circumstances.

I think our actions in the recent wars bear some critical thinking in terms of military professionalism, both in protecting our nation as people who 'thank us for our service' seem to believe, and in supporting and defending our constitution as we swore to do.

I might be waxing overly philosophical, but I would challenge SGM Private RallyPoint Member to define the differences in mercenaries and professional standing militaries particularly if compared to militias.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Oct 20 at 2014 5:26 PM

2014-10-20T17:26:14-04:00

As long as our military are government employees, they are not mercenaries.

In many respects, I became a mercenary after I retired from active duty and became an executive in a company that is the largest provider of security services to the US Government. Our para-military forces are armed, equipped, organized, trained and deployed very similar to the military and are prepared for armed conflict, if necessary, with a well-equipped and determined adversary, whether they be individuals or state-sponsored. While we certainly don't claim to be the military, nor do we compete with them, we certainly co-exist with them and, in many areas, share missions and responsibilities.

Response by PO2 Rocky Kleeger made Oct 20 at 2014 7:46 PM

2014-10-20T19:46:01-04:00

At this point, a little of both, I think

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2014 4:13 PM

2014-10-21T16:13:31-04:00

I definitely do not consider myself a mercenary. I chose to serve my country not my pocketbook. That being said, everyone wants to live as financially comfortable as possible but I don't know of any Marine that I have served with who was serving strictly for the pay. There are easier ways to make more money than the military. For the amount of work put into a typical military members job they are actually not that greatly compensated monetarily...But that isn't why we do what we do.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2014 8:25 PM

2014-10-21T20:25:10-04:00

SGM,

As much as I love my country, love for country and selfless service doesn't pay my bills or give me the financial stability I need to set money aside for emergencies, children's tuition or a car that I'm not worried about breaking down on me.

Why also would I continue to serve if I have a low enough take home pay to be under the poverty line when I could make a better living doing plumbing full time and always be with my family?

Money motivates people and not necessarily out of selfish desire. I serve my country knowing full well I make 20%-25% of the money I'd make in the private sector because I love my job and for the time being I have no wife or kids. It's hard to love your job though if you have poor leadership, hostile work environments or a poor quality of life and it impacts your family's well being.

Also, selflessly serving a country that doesn't give a crap about you or me and is overwhelmed by an entitlement mentality makes it hard to want to serve. At the end of the day, you don't do it for your country as much as you do it for your brother to your left and your sister to your right. Even though I chose to stay in the Army and I currently plan to, if I was offered the chance to ETS tomorrow, no questions asked, no issues raised, I honestly couldn't tell you what decision I would make.

It has less to do with selfless service and rational self interest, IMHO.

V/R
SGT Mullet

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2014 1:37 AM

2014-10-22T01:37:17-04:00

Having thought about this subject and after reviewing what a mercenary is defined as. A few things that seperate a merecnary from the military are.

1. A mercenary is only working for hire, and is bound by a contract performance work statement or task order.
2. They do not take an oath or are bound by the laws that the military are under.
3. They are not part of the armed forces of the nation.
4. One interesting thing is that the mercenary is considered someone who makes significantly more than a person of equal responsibility in the countries armed services.

Lets say an average soldier is an E5 makes about 40K with the benefits. Take that same person at a contracting security firm and now makes 150K. One guy stated he made 165K.

The contractor can simply say fuck it I am done and leave, where as we get wait out our service commitment.

Obviously people do end up having life changing thought about where there life to go. Maybe the reach a point where the military is no longer providing the fulfillment to stay in. I know for me I thought I was going to be lifer or at least the 20 on AD, but my AD career was starting to go stagnant, I could have said yeah I will stay in and be Captain for Life, I saw the writing on the wall and was probably not going to make O4 on AD. I opted to get out while I can get in the reserve pool before it go over competitive.

Ironically my dad originally enlisted in the 70's with the intent doing 6 and out but than his leadership saw his potential as an officer. They picked him up for the bootstrap program where he got to go to school full time on AD. He ended up doing 24 and a half and retiring.

Response by LTC Joseph Gross made Oct 22 at 2014 11:47 AM

2014-10-22T11:47:32-04:00

I read an interesting article last week in response to the Ranger 1SG who didn't get his jacket put away on US Airways. The author was concerned about this creeping expectation of reward and special benefits. How often have you heard someone get pissed because a restaurant doesn't have a service member discount? It is all wrapped up in this question and this problem.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2014 2:31 PM

2014-10-22T14:31:06-04:00

SGM Coberly, this question concerns me because of the fallacy of logic that it poses. In your view, does a desire to be well paid exclude feelings of selfless service or a desire to accomplish the mission? Are our FBI, CIA, ATF, and border patrol personnel (all of which are better paid at commensurate time in service) less dedicated to 'the fight' or less motivated by patriotism?

For that matter, is a mercenary (modern PMCs, for example) less vital to mission accomplishment because they collect larger paychecks? How about the DA civilians and MICEPS that do the same exact job I do shoulder to shoulder with me both at home and deployed?

I understand your frustration at the sense of entitlement displayed by part of the current generation of Soldiers. Our society has evolved their primary motivations and as a microcosm of society, it reflects in our ranks. That said, let me put it another way.

My friends have an average of 5 years out of the last 13 spent in hostile environments, more than any generation of US troops have been asked ever before. Divorce is at an all time high, suicides are more frequent than ever. Our senior leadership told Congress in 2014, the troops across the board "understandunderstand why we have to take a pay cut".

Maybe it is worth considering that we *are* objectively entitled to more than what we have at present- better pay, better training, and better leaders- all of which has nothing to do with our selfless service or motivation to fight and win our nation's wars.

Response by SGT William Howell made Oct 24 at 2014 5:12 PM

2014-10-24T17:12:47-04:00

SGM as a mercenary (feel free to sub the word contractor), I can tell you that soldiers are not mercenaries. They don't get paid enough! When I was in Mozambique I got paid more for one month that what I did for 4 months in the army. All I had to do then was ride around in a boat and maintain my gear.

Response by SPC Daniel Edwards made Dec 10 at 2014 10:37 PM

2014-12-10T22:37:56-05:00

With the popularity of games like Call of Duty, its more like volunteer mercenaries. I am a food inspector. I got some PFCs, one in particular, that apparently signed up thinking that those games were what kind of life they were going to live.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Jan 7 at 2015 1:54 PM

2015-01-07T13:54:51-05:00

Your title implies those are the only two possibility's or motivators. As such there is no way to answer your question honestly as i don't believe either of your limited chooses are accurate or complete.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2015 2:24 PM

2015-01-09T14:24:29-05:00

Only for U.S. Dollar signs. Something should have been done about this situation a very long time ago. The DoD chose to ignore plea's for standard reenlistments so, it's a little late to be hypocritical about it now. Merc? no. "contractor" "advisor" yes.