Is our Military bloated at the top and corrupted?

2022-08-15T12:21:57-04:00

I recently watched an interview with Col. Doug Macgregor, who stated that today's military largely exist to provide jobs for Generals. Today we have about 40 (4-star) Generals and Admirals across the military. In WWII when we had 12.2 million men under arms across the world, we only had 7 (4-stars). Today we have approx 1.1 million troops under arms. Many of our Generals today have more decorations than any General at any other time, but have they actually earned them under fire or for being valorous? So I pose the question, "Does this rank creep clutter the chain of command and add too many bureaucratic layers to decision making to be practical and constipates the chain of command and actually hurts our Armed Forces readiness?

Response by CSM Chuck Stafford made Aug 15 at 2022 12:52 PM

2022-08-15T12:52:25-04:00

There's probably more generals than needed, but the current infrastructure requires more than 7 4-stars and the respective 3,2,1 stars. Regarding decorations -- everyone gets a trophy in our society, the military is no different

Response by LTC Trent Klug made Aug 15 at 2022 2:34 PM

2022-08-15T14:34:16-04:00

Yes. Next question

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Aug 15 at 2022 2:50 PM

2022-08-15T14:50:12-04:00

So is the accusation that General Officers are wearing awards they didn't earn or rate?
Across the board regardless of rank there are more awards that can be earned and worn. Between National Defense, GWOT Service, "bootcamp" ribbons and branches that have marksmanship medals you will see entry level Servicemembers wearing anywhere from 2-5 ribbons on their racks their first year in the Military. Those awards weren't in effect during WWII. The same can be said for a list of devices that have been added to the Uniform in the last 80 years. An emphasis on uniforms and devices took off in the 50's and keeps on rolling. Outside the debate on whether leadership roles in theater should be eligible for a bronze star I don't see leaders getting anything that is suspect.

With that all said the depths of rank have evolved as well. When the Marine Corps started the Commandant was a Lt Col. Times change.

With all that out in the open I do agree that General Officer culture can lead to disappointment. Alot of that has to do with the General Officer's role of acting as a liaison of sorts between the Executive branch. Look at Afghanistan. That withdrawal was jacked up from the floor up and alot of that has to do with influence from the Executive branch and lack of Influence from Senior Military leadership.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 15 at 2022 7:02 PM

2022-08-15T19:02:57-04:00

When LTG(R) Guy C Swan III made his first Star, he was assigned as assistant deputy director for strategy and policy (J5) for the JCS. Now, LTG(R) Swan was a PHENOM officer when he commanded the 11th ACR (I was there when he commanded), and I am not saying that he didn't deserve the posting.....but what exactly is the job description for that position?

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Aug 15 at 2022 7:54 PM

2022-08-15T19:54:06-04:00

I still remember the comments made by then Maj Gen Bruce Carlson at his last Commander's Call as commander of 8AF. (Paraphrased) he said, "Prior to Desert Storm there were approximately 60K-70K troops for every general (BG or higher) officer. Post DS and Reduction of Force initiatives, there were approx 50-60K troops per General/Admiral. Today (approx 2004), there are roughly 25K-30K troops for every General. My question is, what the heck am I supposed be in charge of and do we really need a 2 or 3 star to run it?"

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Aug 15 at 2022 9:58 PM

2022-08-15T21:58:55-04:00

It’s probably a bit bloated, but I wouldn’t say it’s corrupt. I dont think those two things have to both be true together at all.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Aug 15 at 2022 10:04 PM

2022-08-15T22:04:57-04:00

They had a massive GO purge in 2014. 50 were told to drop their retirement packages.

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Aug 15 at 2022 11:52 PM

2022-08-15T23:52:32-04:00

Bloated? Yes.

Corrupt? Not so much. It is a different problem. Lemme esplain....

In today's military, Company grade officers (O1-O3) are "pure" leaders and staffers. Many of them may be brown-nosers, "yes men," etc. And while that usually doesn't hurt them, it generally doesn't HELP them, either. They are rated, first and foremost on their mission effectiveness. A Company grade officer that brooks no BS and gets the job done will be lauded. Even if the BS they refuse to brook comes from politicians, senior Officers, etc. (That is not saying they get a pass for refusing orders, but they *do* get a pass for looking at their boss and saying "It's a stupid F'ing idea, but we'll get it done.")

Field grade officers (O4-O6) are primarily leaders, but need to be politically savvy. They need tact, they start the networking, and they are building their reputation. By the time the make O6, they must be just as aware, if not MORE aware, of the external impact of their orders as they are of the impact on the mission and the Soldiers assigned. It is no longer enough to win, you have to win "pretty." Not only are Field grades worried about the hearts and minds of the local populace, they are worried about hearts and minds on Americans back home eading about / watching the battles in the media.

Today's Flag Officers are politicians. Period. Generals and Admirals care far more about what happens inside the beltway than inside the battlespace. Even when they are the person in charge of the battlespace. For some, this is the culmination of their efforts. For others (and my guess is that this group is the majority) the politics are a necessary evil. They politic because SOMEONE has to, and if they don't their troops will get shat upon. But whether it is by desire or by necessity, they all politic. The ones who don't never see their second star.

I was told be a very Senior COL that it was widely viewed that a LTC was a successful career. A COL is a VERY successful career. And 2 or more stars is a PHENOMENAL career. But retiring (i.e. being booted) with one star is viewed as an abject failure. Those who get their star and don't play ball, don't get a second one. They get booted to make room for those who will.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Aug 16 at 2022 7:23 AM

2022-08-16T07:23:09-04:00

While I am sure there are too many, how many is the right number. The military (society) is much more complex than in the bigone years. Also when we stand up for a conflict we can fill the ranks to support a war with junior grades and a draft, or? What we cannot do is slap stars on shoulders and years of strategic experience that goes with and expect the country to win.

Again, do we have too many, likely.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Aug 16 at 2022 7:25 AM

2022-08-16T07:25:25-04:00

I did forget one key. Piece, no more corrupt than any other environment, guaranteed less so. Corrupt may not have been the right word, maybe YES MEN, in sone cases.

Response by CSM William Everroad made Aug 16 at 2022 2:07 PM

2022-08-16T14:07:30-04:00

MSG Darren Gaddy, I always find it a tad humorous when I see Senior NCOs and Officers making the point that the "system" favors a certain type of person to get promoted when they themselves didn't make the cut. COL Macgregor didn't make his star and suggests that the military exists for only to serve the career ambitions of Generals? As far as I can tell he was an excellent warfighter, but with his attitude, I am not sure I would want him negotiating with the JCS or Congress or CCDRs for resources or support so I can train, equip, deploy and refit my Soldiers.

Not all Generals are useful, for sure. Some MACOMs are stacked with officers making GOs' jobs easier. Or are they navigating a more complex environment (and trying to bridge a civil-military gap) and need more information distilled for decision making? I don't know, but until find myself in the room where the sausage is made, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I have met more effective GOs than ineffective ones.

The military is far more complex now than it was in WWII, even he acknowledges it. But where I think he fell short was suggesting an aggressive foreign defensive posture that would place combat units in places that are sure to incite war.

Response by SSG Jack Scott made Aug 16 at 2022 4:17 PM

2022-08-16T16:17:51-04:00

Yes, yes and yes! The problem with the TOP is once you make General or admiral you are no longer a Warrior but damn politician. They worry more about sucking up to the Admin, Politicians and lining their pockets with greed. They no longer worry or care about the Private or seaman anymore. The last real Warrior General Al Gray Commandant out of the Marine Corps. He would appear before Congress wearing as utilities because that was the uniform of the day for the Marine Corps and drink coffee from his canteen cup. The General would make Unannounced visit to units especially support unit. He would walk in an Office full of typewriters and computers and ask when was the last time that Marie was in the field. The Answer was alway he is a Clerk. That Marine and his command would be in the Field before the Commandant left that day. The Producers of “Independence Day” even named the commandant in the movie after General Al Gray. Hell of a Commandant who hated politicians!

Response by SSG Jason Clark made Sep 21 at 2022 10:30 PM

2022-09-21T22:30:58-04:00

Yes, it all starts with Commander in Chief, President Biden!

Response by CPT James Burkholder made Oct 13 at 2022 6:14 PM

2022-10-13T18:14:39-04:00

I think there are two parts of the concern here: 1 Are there too many Generals and I'll add staff officers and 2: Decorations are making our soldiers look ridiculoous. Yes, we have too many Generals and Staff. What I think we need are more experienced Company and Battalion grade officer who stay in place for a long time, expecially in the combat arms. Here is where the work is done. Division grade can make strategy but only on the local level, at most Battalion is where actual knowledge of how to get the orders done is possible. Only with well experienced commanders there can things work well - - why else did we have the 'SNAFU' develop - - because the lower level commanders weren't able to exercise judgement. This busines of advance or out should go away. Next is the chest full of ribbons and medals. Everyone in the military knows that most are given without thought. Uniforms should wear ribbons of import, especially combat ribbons and medals but ignore not the support forces. The combat troops can't function witihout food, fuel, ammunition, shelter. "“an Army, like a serpent, goes upon its belly.”, Frederick the Great and paraphrased by Napoleon. Let the guys/girls put on all of them when they go home for a holiday; otherwise keep them to a minimum.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 13 at 2022 9:30 PM

2022-10-13T21:30:16-04:00

It's the computer games, needed more generals to play in the war games.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 13 at 2022 9:30 PM

2022-10-13T21:30:24-04:00

Bloated, clearly.
Corrupted, depends what you mean.
Political, clearly.

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Oct 14 at 2022 10:33 AM

2022-10-14T10:33:03-04:00

Some very interesting conversation here. I wonder how many of these General Officers will read this and what there opinions would be. My assumption, based off of the general consensus (no pun intended) that most 1 star and above turn into serve serving politicians who are only trying to line up that $500K+ Board of Directors salary post retirement, would likely disagree.
I would certainly jump on the opportunity to be the Senior Deputy Assistant to the Vice Co-Chairman for the Political Affairs Subcommittee for a cool half million a year.

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Oct 14 at 2022 10:41 AM

2022-10-14T10:41:20-04:00

We really need all of these Senior Advisor to the Vice Co-Chairman of Military Related Affairs Subcommittee positions. I bet the Air Force Academy has a multi million dollar payroll just to pursue inclusion issues.
How else would we reward military leaders (?) who will simply not say no to anything that flows down to them?

Response by TSgt David Olson made Oct 17 at 2022 4:05 PM

2022-10-17T16:05:47-04:00

Yes.

Response by Maj Pedro Gonzalez made Oct 29 at 2022 5:29 PM

2022-10-29T17:29:54-04:00

I agree with your question as if it was a statement. Too heavy on the top. I had to retire because I was "eligible" during Obama's Force Reduction Management. Like me, many of us who had a very successful career were let go. Yet, the top ranks remained in place and now we have nothing but a bunch of woke top brass who make our US military the laugh of the world.

Response by CSM Jerry Weldon made Dec 11 at 2022 7:44 PM

2022-12-11T19:44:11-05:00

Our mission is freedom, not politics. We need warriors, not politicians.

Response by CN Timothy Burk made Dec 14 at 2022 6:18 PM

2022-12-14T18:18:30-05:00

Too many chiefs, not enough indians. Braves that fought and got hurt now have to live off buffalo chips, while the chiefs live a life of Luxury.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Dec 14 at 2022 9:34 PM

2022-12-14T21:34:00-05:00

There will be studs and non studs. I hope they are rational enough to identify the real generals vs paper generals.

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made Dec 15 at 2022 1:08 PM

2022-12-15T13:08:24-05:00

I'll be charitable and say the grade creep could be attributable to providing the stature and compensation talented leaders could demand in the civilian market, but I do question the motivation and opinions of some of those people based upon recent statements they have made. Perhaps some would be more appropriate if they had elected to take the civilian route in a progressive organization.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2023 12:49 PM

2023-01-25T12:49:03-05:00

Bloated? Yes.

Corrupt? Of course.

Like the saying goes "to many Chiefs not enough Indians"

Response by LCpl Michael Cappello made Mar 6 at 2023 12:32 PM

2023-03-06T12:32:50-05:00

Yes. They (Democrats and Liberal SCUM) have forced ALL the real warriors out of the service. We are now nothing more than community service in exchange for free gender reassignment surgery.

Response by LCDR Ed Etzkorn made Mar 11 at 2023 11:40 AM

2023-03-11T11:40:52-05:00

To many chiefs, not enough indians.