Is not paying rent, food, utilities, etc., a benefit received while on active duty (in addition to your pay)?

SGT David Emme — Sun, 03 Apr 2016 20:16:00 -0400

Came upon a discussion on Facebook with another vet.

Conversation started out about the raising of minimum wage vs. what those who work in the military make.

The subject worked its way around to those on active duty having extra benefits besides their pay vs. civilian workers working just for pay.

Response by SGT David Emme made Apr 3 at 2016 8:18 PM

SGT David Emme — Sun, 03 Apr 2016 20:18:33 -0400

My opinion? You need a place to sleep, food to eat to keep a body fit-fit to fight while you train. Of course you do not want to be shivering in the cold in the dark of the night with no water to bathe yourself. Health and welfare, good order and discipline, keeping your troops fit to fight-three squares and a place to rest your body after training hard albeit it is more luxurious compared to the barracks of old. These are not benefits…these are requirements to get your troops ready for the fight. A benefit in the military is something you earn…blood, sweat, and work your tail off for-honorable discharge, GI Bill, retirement, Veterans preference.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2016 8:18 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 Apr 2016 20:18:58 -0400

Yes it is an added benefit.

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Apr 3 at 2016 8:42 PM

Capt Tom Brown — Sun, 03 Apr 2016 20:42:01 -0400

This is really a hot button issue and always has been. There are so many articles about SMs and their families needing donations from food-banks and other forms of assistance. While living off a SMs salary, other compensation and benefits is challenging, esp at the lower ranks, it can be done. It always encourages me to read testimony and personal stories from SMs of all ranks, esp from wives who are the money managers, of families which are 'making do', living fairly comfortably, or otherwise getting by. SMs can never be paid what they are 'worth' to society; if they were, the US would go bankrupt and couldn't print or borrow enough to pay adequately for the hardships risks and sacrifices endured.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2016 8:45 PM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 Apr 2016 20:45:31 -0400

Way to often I see military personnel complain about their low pay, but, they only claim their base pay as compensation. When talking pay one has to consider all including the fact that much is not taxed.

Response by CPT Joseph K Murdock made Apr 3 at 2016 8:46 PM

CPT Joseph K Murdock — Sun, 03 Apr 2016 20:46:08 -0400

Those benefits have economic value to include not paying tax on the whole benefits package.

Response by LTC Kevin B. made Apr 3 at 2016 9:00 PM

LTC Kevin B. — Sun, 03 Apr 2016 21:00:04 -0400

Yes. Having free room and board eliminates the cash outflows that you'd otherwise have to pay. So, they do have an economic value, and they are part of your overall compensation and benefits package. Plus, if you do not live in the barracks and do not eat in the dining facility, you get a housing allowance and subsistence to offset those new cash outflows. You can quibble about the dollar value of those benefits, but they are a benefit.

Additionally, if people are trying to make comparisons with private sector pay, make sure to point out the extra hours you work without additional compensation, the threats of deployment, the loss of freedoms, the potential loss of life in service to your country, etc. It's definitely an apples-to-oranges comparison.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2016 9:37 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 Apr 2016 21:37:43 -0400

I think the worst part of that argument is that they think it's okay to under pay other people, simply because SMs may not be paid what we should.

Response by SGT Ray Grooms made Apr 3 at 2016 10:50 PM

SGT Ray Grooms — Sun, 03 Apr 2016 22:50:24 -0400

It is and it isn't. Most civilians simply think of free housing, utilities, and food. They do not see the weekly (or more) room inspections, cleaning to military standard, or taste the repetitive menu at the chow hall. Free food sounds great until your 100th Taco Tuesday.Don't misinterpret my point here. Barracks/dorms should be cleaned to military standard, but this is not something most civilians would be willing to tolerate. Can you imagine the backlash if section 8 housing was required to be inspected weekly?

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Apr 3 at 2016 10:51 PM

SGM Erik Marquez — Sun, 03 Apr 2016 22:51:24 -0400

Not a benefit per say, but it is part of the expected base compensation package, like Health care and Domestic hygiene , safety and maintenance training (Cleaning the latrines)

Response by MSG Michael Shannon made Apr 3 at 2016 11:12 PM

MSG Michael Shannon — Sun, 03 Apr 2016 23:12:59 -0400

Should these things count as income? Definitely but as LTC Kevin Broom pointed out these "benefits" come at a great cost. If they were so great then more people would join the service. Plus some of the extra pay isn't really all that extra given the skills in some moss. Examples such as 12 series: electricians, plumbing, and masonry. Civilians make pretty equal pay to an e4 or e5 with the bah and bas depending on where they are.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2016 11:15 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 Apr 2016 23:15:01 -0400

I tell people all the time....there are many things you give up or sacrifice to be active duty.....but a PAY CHECK is not one of them......I was never so well paid in my life, and probably will never be again, as when I was on active duty...you have to look at total package...Base Pay, BAH, BAS, Not paying School Taxes (unless you own), Clothing Allowance, Flight Pay, Haz Duty Pay, Dental (I dropped $1500 first year out on a crown), Separation Pay, Tax Free Duty Status, annual cost of living adjustments, Commissary Access, BX/PX access, tax free car purchases, and the list goes on and on.....bottom line we are not underpaid, under appreciated maybe, but under paid....No. If anything i wish it was all taxable while I was in so that it would have been included in my retirement calculations....because if it was included i'd actually be retired....lol

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 12:36 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 04 Apr 2016 00:36:23 -0400

Yes but working over eight hours with no overtime balances things out. A matter fact the mess hall should have been open all night for all OT we did.

Response by Maj John Bell made Apr 4 at 2016 1:20 AM

Maj John Bell — Mon, 04 Apr 2016 01:20:39 -0400

I'm not aware of anyone in the military getting overtime. The list goes on and on. You cannot equate civilian employment to the military. Most civilians know that the military makes sacrifices, but their understanding of those sacrifices are superficial. It is a discussion I choose to not have with civilians.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Apr 4 at 2016 6:24 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Mon, 04 Apr 2016 06:24:53 -0400

Neither. You ARE paying for those. That BAH and BAS you ARE'NT getting? Yeah, the government is pocketing that.

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Apr 4 at 2016 11:41 AM

SPC(P) Jay Heenan — Mon, 04 Apr 2016 11:41:46 -0400

It is all a benefit, a part of our compensation package. SM's aren't going to get rich from serving, but if you are smart with your finances, you can make a pretty decent living. The savings at the Commissary is pretty huge all by itself. I see a lot of issues with Soldiers when they start having four or more kids...because daycare IS expensive! We get a lot of benefits as part of our compensation package, as always, it is about your personal choices on how you view our benefits.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 12:59 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 04 Apr 2016 12:59:46 -0400

When we are talking about living in the barracks specifically. BAH for an E4 in Camp Pendleton without dependents is $1638. A one bedroom apartment in Ocean Side will run around $1200 to $1800 a month. So the BAH a SM does not receive for living in the barracks is to pay for Utilities and rent for a Studio apartment with a roommate, shared head, and shared Laundry facility. Yes not having to pay rent is a benefit but how much of a benefit is it for our service members in the barracks. Who have to put up with random working parties, weekly room inspections, and duty. When we talk about minimum wage we are talking about entry level positions our junior enlisted.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 4:11 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 04 Apr 2016 16:11:40 -0400

Yes it eliminates the amount of money yo have to pay up front, but married soldiers pay is supplemented so that they can afford those things. So although I'm not directly paying for room and board or food directly, I am essentially paying for it because I'm not getting the extra pay that someone who is allowed to live off post would get. I also wouldn't consider it a benefit because the living conditions and food we receive are sub-par. Some barracks are nice, but I've never had barracks that offer any kind of privacy or enough room to comfortably keep all my belongings, and with the dfac I don't get any choice in what I want to eat further than the 3 entrees that are usually offered. That's why so many soldiers dip into their already low salary to pay to live off post and purchase their own food. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying being in the military doesn't have great benefits, but I do not consider the barracks or chow hall to be benefits.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 6:40 PM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 04 Apr 2016 18:40:23 -0400

In some ways, I think the housing and sustenance provided by the government to military members is less about being a benefit and more about the government's investment in military personnel to keep them warm, full, healthy and fit to defend our nation. Same as free dental and healthcare.

Response by PO1 Eric Goblirsch made Apr 4 at 2016 7:05 PM

PO1 Eric Goblirsch — Mon, 04 Apr 2016 19:05:01 -0400

I retired in 2005 and have a decent paying job in the area I live in. If I add my wages and my pension together it still is only about 70 percent of my active duty pay in 2005. This does not include the tax break or tricare.. Of all the things I miss the paycheck is near the top.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2016 9:26 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 04 Apr 2016 21:26:58 -0400

Yes, if you look at this from the total rewards approach to income the Service Member (SM) makes far more than just the stated income on a pay chart. I make the following points to support this:

a. The SM gets no cost room and board in the barracks or Basic Allowance for Housing
b. The SM gets not cost meals at the DFAC or Basic Allowance for Substance
c. The SM gets full medical + dental coverage
d. The SM gets 30 days paid vacation.
e. The SM gets $4500 tuition assistance yearly as well as 4 years of paid college when he/she leaves service.
f. The SM has access to tax-free shopping establishments
g. The SM has potential to gain skills that a civilian employer may value.
h. A low ranking SM will likely only be in the bottom ranks for a short period of time, so his/her income will increase quickly.
i. The SM has potential to retire from service after 20 years and receive a pension for life.

I'm sure I'm missing a ton of stuff, but the point is that there is more to compensation than just your monthly pay check.

Response by SGT David Emme made Apr 4 at 2016 10:28 PM

SGT David Emme — Mon, 04 Apr 2016 22:28:59 -0400

Posted this on FB and here is the response from a friend I served with. Brings up a point, what is the value of a serviceman(and woman). What is the true value of your service? When permanently disabled because of combat or training? Or the value of those who pay the ultimate sacrifice? Or the value of those wounded but not disabled? Or the value of those with shattered minds? Or just simply the value of service of those who chose to serve willing to give it all but who have not? Here is the response from retired LTC Timothy Gauthier

Let's start by saying that the Army isn't a charity and no matter what they say, any of these "free" benefits have been weighed and measured to ensure that it is a benefit to the Army. They are QOL and retention tools that don't even begin to match the sacrifices soldiers make, even in peacetime. Name another job where you must be available 24/7 fit to deploy and fight to the death if necessary. You more than everyone can attest to the pain, loss of function, employability, and lost years due to combat wounds. Anyone who would imply we're getting over needs to pull their head out of their ass. Believe me, the Army is getting a great deal. I usually don't dismiss criticisms out of hand but the false comparison of civilian jobs and military service is a nonstarter.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 12:06 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 00:06:20 -0400

This is an argument that I had frequently with other soldiers while I was active. Typically, the ones complaining about pay were the soldiers that came straight into the Army from high school, never having held a full-time job before. I was 28 when I came in and from day one, as a PFC, it was the best pay I had ever made. Of course, there are risks inherent in military service that don't exist in the civilian world, such as going to war. However, when you consider the monetary value of all of the benefits, soldiers are paid very well. I did the math once for what a married E5, at 4 years time-in-service, actually makes and the figure came out to around $54,000/year. I think for an E1 it was ~$30,000. Not bad for an entry level job. Hell, the only things I miss about active duty are the camaraderie and the pay.

Response by SSG John Jensen made Apr 5 at 2016 1:22 AM

SSG John Jensen — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 01:22:43 -0400

jumping out of airplanes for a living and getting paid for it - and while on active duty, my California Drivers License never expired, and while not stationed in CA didn't pay CA income tax - and on pay day to look at my LES while with everybody who lived off post with families and say "Look at all of this beer money!" I never came closer to death.

Response by MAJ G Patrick M. made Apr 5 at 2016 7:03 AM

MAJ G Patrick M. — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 07:03:58 -0400

Although we receive pay in accordance with a fixed pay scale as well as bennies that are certainly quantifiable, it is so much harder to assign a value to the the sacrifice we give of ourselves vice putting a value to services that civilians provide to their employers and their community.

Response by MAJ Michel Dinesman made Apr 5 at 2016 7:46 AM

MAJ Michel Dinesman — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 07:46:39 -0400

You forgot the deductions for getting shot at or being blow up; getting killed; regular reduction in retirement benefits after you already signed your contract and are actively fulfilling your contractural obligations; not having any privacy; not being able to refuse getting called in on the weekends; or working till as late as necessary; losing vacation days during weekends; obligatory immunizations; regular exposure to extreme cold, heat, and precipitation; you also get to stand outside at 5:00 AM in the morning in the rain for no reason whatsoever.

Response by TSgt Marco McDowell made Apr 5 at 2016 8:25 AM

TSgt Marco McDowell — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 08:25:28 -0400

Saw the same argument. Personally I lived well. Learned how to budget and save and invest. Lived in the barracks then forced (and paid) to live off post. The bills I had were of my own creation. I wasn't going to starve or be homeless because the Corps and Air Force provided something some way or another. Even a guy making $15 an hour has to fork over for housing, utilities, food, clothing and in most cases, medical/dental. If an E-1 chooses to marry and have 3 kids, buy a big screen and a sweet ride, he'll need to deal with his decision, but in the end, the military is going to provide something. Some don't want a "burger flipper" getting that much, but I guess a grunt would look at someone in the chowhall "flipping" and wonder the same thing. I'm for everyone getting a raise, the COL is getting ridiculous. If everyone had a degree, you would still need someone to cook your burger, pick up the trash and tend the lawn. Either way people will stump for higher wages to live off of. If you aren't a victim of personal financial mismanagement, after 4 or 20 years you should have a little something saved, especially not having to pay certain expenses that the average joe would. So yeah, I'd say we have great bennies. Not many jobs out there that will let you retire at 39, get a check and a few other perks while you work elsewhere.

Response by CW3 Bill Golden made Apr 5 at 2016 8:35 AM

CW3 Bill Golden — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 08:35:35 -0400

One of the biggest shocks for transitioning military is that their buying power radically changes once they take off the uniform and become a civilian. It does not shift in a bad or good way, it just takes about 6-12 months for it to complete the shift to reality. All of those extras are things that you would pay for out of your own pocket in the civilian world. While that is just common sense, you have probably become mentally accustomed to not paying for those things. Unemployment is higher among young veterans (less than age 30) for 12-24 months after leaving service because there is a whole lot of adjusting to do -- and some of that is figuring out how to pay for life with a base paycheck that includes no benefits other than health insurance, which you are often asked to help pay for. GOOD NEWS: Most people figure it out and veteran unemployment on the whole is lower than that of the general population.

Response by CSM James Winslow made Apr 5 at 2016 9:08 AM

CSM James Winslow — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 09:08:10 -0400

The info is out there if you look for it. The only part of a Soldier's income that is taxable is Basic pay and Bonuses. All other "allowances" are tax free. What do Soldiers earn? There is really too much to go into here, but I will try.

The Basics (aside from Pay) are BAS ( Basic Allowance for Sustenance for food), - about $360, and BAH (Basic Allowance for Housing), (which is a variable depending on Duty station, Rank and Martial status)(lets call it $1000 for a single junior Foreman (Sergeant E-5)). BUT- if you are said Jr. Foreman, and you are single, you HAVE to live in the Barracks (equivalent to a College dorm, maybe with a roommate (separate bedrooms, shared bathroom and a really evil Dorm manager that has the right to toss your room if it is not cleaned to standard)) and you MUST eat in the Dining Facility (The Mess Hall) and your BAS is taken.

So what do we have? Living in the Barracks: free dorm room & free food (they pay you for it and then take it away- Bureaucrats). Living off post: Rent paid (up to the limit of your allowance) and food paid (said BAS- you get to keep it).

JFYI, the "Basic Pay" Soldiers get is pocket money. gas, car and civilian clothes, as well as entertainment. Taxable, of course.

What else? Free medical and 30 Days paid leave, $400,000 life insurance for around $30 a month, and a Death Gratuity ($100,000) in case you are killed in combat. Also, the Military gives you a one time per year clothing allowance (for enlisted only, of about $500) to purchase new uniforms- a Uniform costs about $250 (uniform, t-shirt, socks and underwear), and a decent pair of boots around $90.

And one last thing- Retirement. Presently, if you are retiring (after 20 Years of Honorable service), you will get 50% of the monthly average of your last three years of paychecks for the. rest. of. your. life. Taxable, of course, although some states do not tax retired military income.

Balance that against 0300 formations, 2100 quitting times, weeks of living in a tent in the field, 16-18 hour workdays, occasional Deployments, substandard (or no) food and housing on occasion, Bag lunches (MREs), no showers, hot water, no time for personal hygiene, doing your business in a porta potty the middle of the night in a thunderstorm in 30 degree weather and there is no toilet paper- and a multitude of other really nasty or uncomfortable living, working and social situations and conditions. Or a combination of all of those, and some very difficult people to work with on top of it all.

Is a Soldier underpaid? Let me ask you this: How much is your life worth? As a Soldier, the government can demand that I risk my life in the performance of my duty, in combat or not.

Response by SPC Anna Larson made Apr 5 at 2016 10:30 AM

SPC Anna Larson — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 10:30:05 -0400

They are definately a benefit. When I was stationed at Ft. Huachuca, our assignment was to the medical unit, but our office (the vet clinic) was on the other side of post from the hospital and it's chow hall. We wouldn't have been able to cross post, eat at the chow hall and get back to work in time, so all of us who worked at the vet clinic were automatically put on the meals portion of BAS. It didn't cover any off base housing, but we did get extra because we couldn't eat at the assigned chow hall.

However on the subject of minimum wage, I don't think that paying someone flipping burgers should be at the same scale as someone fighting fire. When I got out of the Army, I worked for the BLM as a wildland firefighter and base pay started in the $15.00 range and bumped up to the $16.00 range when I finally left. We got overtime and hazard pay as part of a permanent position, but those who are hired on a per fire basis (ie the vast majority of the hand crews) They don't get those extras. So more than half the firefighters on the line are getting a straight time pay of between 15- 16 per hour. So if you jump up minimum wage so that the local burger flipper makes more money then they average wildland firefighter, any guesses as to whats going to happen when they can no longer afford to pay firefighters to put out catastrophic fires?

Response by SFC Thomas Holcomb made Apr 5 at 2016 11:14 AM

SFC Thomas Holcomb — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 11:14:48 -0400

This always gets me trying to compare our jobs to civilian jobs. And extra benefits we are supposed to be getting. Who has a job that can compare to a Forward Observer/Pathfinde. Getting called on 24/7 working for days not hours in some of the worst conditions you can think of then one really bad day you wake up after 14 days in a comma and never the same if you know of a job like that as a civilian DON'T APPLIE

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 11:31 AM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 11:31:19 -0400

The military offers "allowances" on top of Base pay to "compensate" for things that we do, sacrifices that we make at points in our careers or enlistments. Yes, these allowances are benefits to us above and beyond what the average civilian sector covers but at higher levels, there are corporations out there that offer some of the same "allowances".
Obviously, no company or corporation that is paying an employee minimum wage fits into this category.
Did this question arise because someone feels the SM's should not receive these pays and/or we should receive a minimum wage? I really don't see the point in arguing the military/ civilian pay scale. We don't do equivalent things on a regular basis. If you want my pay/benefits... SIGN UP!

Response by LCpl Kenneth Heath made Apr 5 at 2016 11:46 AM

LCpl Kenneth Heath — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 11:46:32 -0400

That's ridiculous. Military Personnel PAY rent, PAY for food and PAY for uniforms... where do you think that offset in pay comes from when you get married and move off-base? It's the return of cash to you that they are no longer taking from your pay!

Response by SFC Raymond Thibault made Apr 5 at 2016 11:58 AM

SFC Raymond Thibault — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 11:58:32 -0400

During my 22 Years. If I lived off Post because Government Housing was not available. We did get an additional allowance in West Germany. I did not cover utilities. We had to budget. The Exchange rate at my first assignment in Mannheim West Germany, in 1972, was great 4 Marks to the dollar. I, at the suggestion of my Uncle CSM Walter Carr, Invested in 1,000.00 dollars worth and opened an account with a German Bank.I also started saving in the Bank on post. 2 years later when I got married and brought my wife over, we lived off post. The interest and the extra saved cash helped a SP4 and his wife to make ends meet. Our first child was born in 5th General Hospital, Heidelberg. The Officers wives club and Enlisted wives club assisted us with Baby Furniture and Baby food. We Pooled our resources. The Senior NCOs and their wives were great. They were the blessing we needed to survive. I was fellow brothers and sisters not the Government that helped make a difference.

Response by CPT Joseph K Murdock made Apr 5 at 2016 2:05 PM

CPT Joseph K Murdock — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 14:05:54 -0400

If their is a bill payer then there is a benefit. Are the young folks in the 26th percentile?

Response by PO1 Aaron Baltosser made Apr 5 at 2016 2:42 PM

PO1 Aaron Baltosser — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 14:42:26 -0400

The last deployment I went on was a 1 year commitment. I made a good wage with tax free, and benefits like BAH...until I did the math. For that deployment I made $7.04 an hour with a side bonus of living in a combat zone and having the real possibility of being killed or dismembered from what I call an SED (standard explosive device). Tough to call them improvised when they are taught how to use a Sanayo base station to make them as a standard. What civilian would engage with a job that paid below minimum wage with the chance of serious injury or death? Then, when we do make our wage in our chosen career they suggest wrongly we are paid too well. My last deployment was as a First Class, not as a junior enlisted. My pay as junior enlisted would have been in the $5 range. How exactly is that overpaid? THAT is something a civilian with no knowledge can't have explained to them due to complete lack of comprehension.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 5:57 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 17:57:40 -0400

Everyone thinks we eat for free... $300/mth is automatically taken out of our pay for chow halls that aren't even open. In addition to paying for a "free service" we don't get, we end up dropping another $300/mth to eat.

Out-F'ing-Standing for a private who makes about $13,000/year

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 5:59 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 17:59:22 -0400

It would be if it didn't automatically come out of our pay and the chow halls were actually open maybe?

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 6:27 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 18:27:33 -0400

When your food and housing is substandard (ie, on a ship), it's hardly a benefit. Instead, for [redacted] months, I can't live where I want to and can't eat what I want to... or even have the benefits of my meals being warm. Gee... what a bonus!

Response by MSgt Tim Attenhofer made Apr 5 at 2016 6:52 PM

MSgt Tim Attenhofer — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 18:52:20 -0400

Definitely a benefit. Used to receive a form letter every year that would lay out all the compensation/benefits monetarily. Used to laugh at it with how much they said each of the benefits was worth, but was able to use it as documentation for applying for loans. Do you not get that any longer?

Response by SMSgt Lance Goeman made Apr 5 at 2016 7:38 PM

SMSgt Lance Goeman — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 19:38:46 -0400

In a way, yes. If you expect to take the same pay or an increase on the outside, you'll come up short because you're getting this portion of your pay tax-free. That's why they say in TAP in order to keep the same standard of living you'll need 25% more total compensation to offset the lack of tax-exempt income.

Response by CW3 Susan Burkholder made Apr 5 at 2016 8:08 PM

CW3 Susan Burkholder — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 20:08:06 -0400

Of course they are benefits. By definition any indirect and non- cash compensation by your employer is a benefit. Benefits can be given and taken away at any time. Those benefits vary from civilian employer to employer, and from industry to industry (like health care, life insurance, paid vacation, amount of sick leave, retirement pension and so on). For a military to suggest that free room and board, BAH, and subsistence allowance are not benefits is probably coming from the over entitled generation. And they are probably young - in their first job. I'm going to boldly say that they have not truly had to live on their own and experience what a paycheck covers. They have not had to experience being selective in their job applications because one employer offered better health benefits, etc. or no benefits at all. They have not experienced the changes that COBRA brought or life before Affordable Healthcare Act. The changes in IRS rules that allowed the proliferation of flexible spending accounts and such. They have not had to purchase additional life insurance because the average $50 dollars per pay for a mere 50,000 dollars of term life insurance from the employer just doesn't do as much as $400,000 offered by the military for a lot less monthly co-pay from their military pay check. And I could go on.....

There are some benefits that are mandated by law (such as social security, unemployment compensation, and workers compensation. So, again, any of the above benefits can be taken away at any time by the employer. Even military benefits can be taken away by congress, as my many many many emails and MOAA, and AUSA and such keep me informed about. There is a constant threat to our benefits being reduced or taken away all together.

Response by SPC Byron Skinner made Apr 6 at 2016 12:23 AM

SPC Byron Skinner — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 00:23:57 -0400

Sp4 Byron Skinner. Although food, lodging etc. are a convent the real issue here is that the military moved you from your home and like a civilian company has the responsibility to provide the necessities of life when you are away from home. Its called Per Diem. To those who live off base there is allowances to cover this which zeros out any monetary value living in a barracks might have. The emerging minimum wage of $15.00 an hour is certainly making the pay scale of the Jr. enlisted and officers look bad. When you throw in over time pay for anything over 8 hrs a day or 40 hr's. a week the shortcoming of military pay is more startling. To be competitive the military will have to double the pay for Enlisted and Jr. officers, In short the military is going to have to enter the 21st. Century. The military won't be able to attract the caliber of people it wants. The military is trying to recruit men/women with two years of post secondary education or more. These young people will easily be able to get jobs at $25,00 and hour. With a college degree the expected starting wage is twice the minimum wage. Starting teachers will be making $60,000 an year in California with overtime for sports supervision and off hours events.

Response by SSgt Jim Gilmore made Apr 6 at 2016 3:27 AM

SSgt Jim Gilmore — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 03:27:20 -0400

Try doing that on an E-1, E-2, E-3 or even E-4 money. When I lived in Hawaii (after my military time) I can't tell you how many times you would see these young troops with family scratching their asses just to get food on the table WITH BAS/BAQ. I worked for an overnight package delivery company and I could tell you the date without looking at a calendar. Many of these kids were lined up to get the package with a check from mom and dad to buy food to get by until payday. You may not think it a benefit but it definitely is a benefit.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 7:00 AM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 07:00:42 -0400

lol you do know active duty is considered 24/7/365 on call??? right??? lol Even with those benefit ... it still barely consider a nice paying job. unless you are E7 or above, but then you are already consider "managerial role" by then.

Response by SN Dwayne Fries made Apr 6 at 2016 7:06 AM

SN Dwayne Fries — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 07:06:31 -0400

I think you're comparing apples and oranges really. That's my opinion. Rarely would I consider military bunks a home. That's like saying having a bunk while underway on a submarine is a bonus. It's not. The boat was designed around a crew for a reason, and that "coffin" as we called it was not designed for comfort, only necessities.

Response by SFC Stephen Steed made Apr 6 at 2016 7:32 AM

SFC Stephen Steed — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 07:32:43 -0400

That's a loaded question and you might think easy to answer, but it's not. First, free housing. In most military locations it is a dorm like situation. You share a room with someone else. At the time I served you had to be an E-4 with 2 years service to move out of the barracks. You give up privacy and have to share a bathroom, they are usually not very spacious. Second ,Free utilities. Because in most cases if you are not an E-4 with 2 years service you required to live in the barracks, so yes the utilities are free with the exception as I understand, if the soldier wants cable or phone service, they pay for it themselves. In large part medical has become out sourced. Most services do provide a lot of the basic medical care but in the instances of married personnel they usually have to use a civilian Dr.. The system is designed to pay for these benefits because military members do not receive a large pay-check. The benefits our military receive are constantly being cut or reduced by our President or Congress because they feel that the benefits that come with serving in the service should match what civilians receive but at the same time require us to place our lives on the line. Every benefit the military receives is earned.

Response by PO2 Eric Weber made Apr 6 at 2016 7:37 AM

PO2 Eric Weber — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 07:37:59 -0400

Being as I paid for rent, meals, and utilities while in the service...no it isn't. Is it offset at least a little? Yes. Calculating my hourly pay during a particularly busy deployment averaged a little under $2/hr. Burger flippers are barking up the wrong tree.

Response by SSgt Chuck “Gunz” Gundlach USMC Ret., MBA made Apr 6 at 2016 8:34 AM

SSgt Chuck “Gunz” Gundlach USMC Ret., MBA — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 08:34:19 -0400

You do have a chowhall, but have to eat what is served each day, each meal. So many grab food and meals outside of the chowhall on their own dime. Those allowed to live off base get comrats that suppiment what they may have to pay in the local economy. BAH is also provided to suppiment the cost of renting in the local economy. That said, they can't change jobs or location like a civilian can if they can't afford it, want a new job or new location. They don't get any overtime pay, have to put up with situations that no civilian could even think of, go to the field, on deployments, onto ships, into combat zones...and are forced to live without their families a great deal of the time; both current family and they parenst and siblings, unlike most civilians stay close to where they were born and get to come home to the spouse and kids every night and eat supper together, go to dances, sporting events, graduations, et cetera. Oh, and then their is the job equivalence comparison. What is a welder in the Marine Corps getting paid...even say with comrats and BAH, compared to that Union Welder and all their benefits and retirement plan. No one in the military asks a customer if they want fries with that, and oh, then jacks that up.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 8:49 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 08:49:56 -0400

It is a benefit. Free room and board is a huge benefit that a lot of Soldiers don't take advantage of in its entirety. Most of the chow halls today are pretty damned good. They have a host of different things to eat at any given meal. The barracks in most places are decent now. Yes, you have to have a roommate. Boo-frickity-hoo. When I was young I lived with roommates to make ends meet. Some people don't have to. I did. There are a lot of things that civilians get that we don't either...like their full rights under the constitution. We don't and that's often overlooked.

Response by Sgt Joseph Kloss made Apr 6 at 2016 9:02 AM

Sgt Joseph Kloss — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 09:02:48 -0400

In the Military you don't get to pick which barracks you live in. Try living in a barracks outside of a helicopter fuel depot or in a barracks in Okinawa that had been condemned that every summer you had to clean the walls in the hallway once a week because they turned brown. The bas allowance never covered the cost of living in the area you were stationed. How about having to eat in a chow hall that had civilian cooks and the food was absolutely terrible. I had meat one time my buddy was sticking a fork in it and squealing like it was still alive. I can go on and on. They are not benefits if they weren't there no one could join because the pay sucks until you get time in and higher rank, but all the money you have to pay out to get there and the BS you have to put up with doesn't compute. In the civilian world you can change your housing and your job.

Response by PO1 Kevin Arnold made Apr 6 at 2016 11:22 AM

PO1 Kevin Arnold — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 11:22:14 -0400

No it's not a benefit if you are single. If single you can live in the barracks for free. If you are married then you get a housing allowance however that money goes directly to housing. It's still military housing but it's paid for. It can be both on or off base depending on where you are stationed.

Response by SFC Randall Atchison made Apr 6 at 2016 11:26 AM

SFC Randall Atchison — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 11:26:20 -0400

When I first enlisted in the Army, my base pay was $307.00 a month before taxes. You had to be married to get BAH and BAS. To get Post Housing, you had to be an E-4 with over two years of service on a six year enlistment! If you didn't want to live in the barracks, it was on your dime!

Response by PO1 Glenn Boucher made Apr 6 at 2016 12:33 PM

PO1 Glenn Boucher — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 12:33:04 -0400

Its a tough call on this because we do get extra money for certain situations, but its not ever going to be comparable to civilian pay because there is no comparison.
In the military we are on call 24/7 during our enlistments, even on vacation we can be called back to duty, how many civilians, other than first responders can say the same?
We all know in the military we are always ready to deploy on short notice if something happens and we are needed, how many civilians have to leave their families for several months or longer on a routine basis, much less when an emergency pops up?
BAS is not enough to really survive for a month unless your eating Cup O Noodles or other junk foods.
BAH is nice, but again its usually enough to cover your rent and most of your utilities and that is dependent upon where you live.
Lots of civilian companies have free health / dental insurance for the employee and a fee for family members just like our TRICARE and Delta Dental are.
The plus and minus of our benefits don't make up for the lower base pay and laughable pay raises we get.

Response by CW4 Chad Balwanz made Apr 6 at 2016 1:42 PM

CW4 Chad Balwanz — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 13:42:48 -0400

Yes it is a benefit, lf you feel it is such a sweet deal the recruitment offices are open for business if you can meet the physical standards, height / weight requirements. Good luck acquiring those benefits.

Response by A1C Lisa Casserly made Apr 6 at 2016 3:46 PM

A1C Lisa Casserly — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 15:46:23 -0400

Well, that depends, really. FIRST, do you get to USE those benefits? For example, if you don't go to the clinic, having that "insurance" for free health care is not useful. And, if you never get to use the chow hall because either its not open, your supervisor won't let you leave work to go there or he/she takes "first lunch" because rank hath its privileges and then drags ass so you don't have time to get there, or the chow hall is so far from your work/barracks that you can't get there because there's no transportation and you don't have a car... Well, not so useful, huh?

Also, remember that you signed what amounts to an indentured servitude contract... and that they OWE YOU in the respect of caring for your body and person, since they OWN you.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 3:57 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 15:57:28 -0400

I was in 1968 to 1972. the pay was not good then, especially when you look at the very long hours that I worked. The food was not great at the mess halls except in boot camp. In Vietnam, the C Rations and other things I ate were nothing to write home about. The Quonset hut in boot camp was one of the nicer places that I stayed in. With all the sacrifices that service men and women make, you really can not compare military pay to civilian pay.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 4:06 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 16:06:46 -0400

None of those things are really "free". There is a monetary value associated with each. At any time, if one of those is provided, you see a reduction in your paycheck. Heck, even living on post these days you still pay your own utilities.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 4:09 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 16:09:20 -0400

I think that your perspective greatly depends on what you do in the military. I'm an electronics tech. Even as an E6 my base pay tops out at 37k per year. Compare that to a civilian working the in the same field but with a straight 40 hours per week no deployments, workups, etc that notary life entails. The average for a civilian electronics tech is in the 50s. Now with BAH and BAS and I'm making a little more, probably enough more to justify holding a clearance IMO.

If the military had to pay for what you do versus what grade you are, this wouldn't be an argument at all. The real argument should be how they use BAH as a tool, single versus w/dependents rates to retain otherwise underpaid service member with families.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 4:21 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 16:21:54 -0400

I'm going to reply again because I can't find my first post.
In terms of compensation anything that isn't "pay" is a benefit in much the same way as an employer offering 401k contributions is a benefit. Regardless the value of a benefits package does not offset the requirement for minimum wage and the wages in the military are often terrible depending on your specific job and advancement opportunity. An E3 with no dependents earns less than a full time cashier despite working twice the hours. Benefits are nice, but if you can't use them, or worse can't spend them, they're little more than filler for the recruitment brochures.

Response by SP5 David Cox made Apr 6 at 2016 4:48 PM

SP5 David Cox — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 16:48:41 -0400

Yes, it is a benefit, but as others have said, this is very much an apples-to-oranges comparison. Once, while working on a Navy program (as a civilian contractor) we were running a 24 hour test, and I pulled a slot in the middle of the night. I was there along with a civilian with no military experience and a sailor, and we got talking about the military life. The civilian opined that the sailor had it pretty good because he got free housing, free food, and didn't pay taxes for anything. Needless to say, we educated her about reality. Even worse, the sailor was on shore duty, but worked odd hours, which meant he rarely got to chow during serving hours, so he ended up having to buy his own food, and his command wouldn't give him separate rats.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Apr 6 at 2016 4:51 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 16:51:49 -0400

It's part of the TOTAL COMPENSATION PACKAGE as opposed to a "benefit."

It is disingenuous to take "basic military pay" and divide it by 52 weeks and 40 hours a week and come up with an hourly rate, as EVERY military member by definition makes a "living wage."

The "Living Wage" (Battle of the Lexicon, thank you Maj Richard "Ernie" Rowlette) aka "Minimum Wage" what is being argued about.

Military Members are Trained Professionals, and are COMPENSATED as such.

Those who work in Minimum Wage Employment are paid at the UNSKILLED LABOR RATE.

That is the difference. They are utterly different, and those who try to compare them are trying to compare figurative apples to mongooses.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 4:57 PM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 16:57:47 -0400

When I was making about $120 a month, with food, lodging, and everything else covered, my pay was ALL spending money. I'd say the former are definitely benefits!!! BTW, your first survey response is a double negative and, as such, invalid as written.

Response by Emilio Calero made Apr 6 at 2016 8:15 PM

Emilio Calero — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 20:15:53 -0400

I think there needs to be more of a balance in the pay system we have the politicians that make a ton of money and for life as well. We get enough money for the average of the area and the thing is all the companies that rent to us know the cap so its always maxed out. Especially over seas. Im in Okinawa right now and chose to stay on base because of this. Bottom line the structure within the military is nothing compared to the civ side however I believe enlisted should make alot more than we do.

Response by LCpl Timothy McCain made Apr 6 at 2016 9:01 PM

LCpl Timothy McCain — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 21:01:28 -0400

You do actually pay for those things. You even pay for uniforms. The cost is deducted from your pay. When you live off base the estimated costs is added back to your pay. Same for uniform allowance.

Response by PO1 Scott Cottrell made Apr 6 at 2016 9:12 PM

PO1 Scott Cottrell — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 21:12:04 -0400

Yes, but they have a choice of where they want to eat, where they want to live. As a military member if you don't like where you are, you can't just pack up and move somewhere else. You have to wait until your tour is over and hope you can transfer somewhere else, that is if the needs of the Military don't keep you at your current duty station or another one in the same area. Or you can talk about overtime, put some of these people on a ship for 6 months straight and only pay them the time they work and see how they like it. In the military, yes you get time off, but you can be called in at anytime for duty. I can only speak for my experiences in the Navy, but when I was out at sea, I worked 7 days a week and normally between 12 and 16 hours a day. Even in port I still worked at least 8 hours a day plus Duty days (normal work day plus at least one 4 hour watch and working parties as needed), most of the ships I was on were 3 section duty (every 3rd day was 24 hours on the ship). Let's throw in that a married E-5 and below qualify for food stamps based on their pay.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Apr 6 at 2016 9:30 PM

COL Charles Williams — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 21:30:54 -0400

Yes, there are many benefits you receive beyond Base Pay when you serve. Straight Base Pay is not a good measure of what you make while serving on active duty. Besides Base Pay, BAS, and BAH, there are still many other benefits.

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2016 11:13 PM

LCpl Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 23:13:54 -0400

Technically we do pay for food, rooms, and utilities. They just deduct it from our pay and we get the rest, unless you are married and making the BAH and BAS.

Response by Cpl Jeff Buckman made Apr 7 at 2016 12:21 AM

Cpl Jeff Buckman — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 00:21:46 -0400

I've seen much complaining about the quality of the benefit given. Regardless of your opinion of the chow, while yes is bland. It is still a benefit in every sense of the word, find one civilian job that gives both for free.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 6:33 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 06:33:13 -0400

It could be looked at as a benefit, for some. For most of the Soldiers in the barracks, though, their peers are likely still living at home with their parents anyway. If they were not in the military, many of them would still live at home. If they were stationed close to home, they would probably still be living with their parents. This is not to say that they are immature, but most kids don't move out at 18 years old, unless they join the military or go to college. Living in the barracks is a replacement for a bed room at mom and dads. Moms dinners have been replaced by the DFAC. The bottom line is, the people that should be working minimum wage jobs are children who live at home, not adults raising families. Room and board are not benefits when compared to a minimum wage worker, they are a replacement for living with parents.

Response by SSG James Schmerber made Apr 7 at 2016 7:41 AM

SSG James Schmerber — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 07:41:47 -0400

Somethings to think about all benefits included I was making 22.50 an hour however after 20 years you get out and try and find a job for 22.50 an hour at age 40 good luck and I have always had a second job this is based on a forty hour week take in consideration 5 deployments and two years in Korea where family is not aloud this is 7 years away divide this by 3 and this gives you an extra 14 years of pay based on 8 hour work days you do not get payed for let alone overtime how about just not compare your pay to our military because if you are you probably couldn't make it as one of us To all that defend for us Thank YOU and let's keep trying for our benefits and then use them

Response by SSgt Bradley Rodier made Apr 7 at 2016 10:38 AM

SSgt Bradley Rodier — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 10:38:54 -0400

The debate stems more from can a person have a -minimum- quality of life based on their current financial situation. While there are many sacrifices we make, we entirely could/can because of the benefits that are included. People at the current minimum wage can not, especially if they have any sort of family to support.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 11:04 AM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 11:04:05 -0400

there is a benefit to an extent. there are things that are accepted in the military that are downright illegal as a civilian. for example; when renting my heat went out. someone came to my apartment within the hour to fix my heat. on a ship however, shipmates in the departmental berthing had been complaining about their broken heater for months in the middle of winter. the temperature was low to the point that it was dangerous. senior leadership did not move forward and it was not until I heard about it through a posting on facebook from a live-aboard about how he goes to sleep and wakes up cold every night that his mother had to read that something was done about it. I had to personally complete the task with no official back up. the food issue is brought up constantly and that just is what it is. its not unhealthy so honestly at least you have a meal but living arrangements get over looked a lot.

Response by SSgt Michael Cox made Apr 7 at 2016 12:46 PM

SSgt Michael Cox — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 12:46:46 -0400

I looked at it this way. As a civilian I can make $20-$60 an hour as an aircraft mechanic. In the military as an E-5 with 14 years in I was making about the same pay with my BAS and BAH on top of my base pay. So in short 14 years = starting pay in civilian world. Now I know not all jobs are the same but the millennial that started the post should have looked at pay for different jobs before even making the post.

Response by CPT Jim Schwebach made Apr 7 at 2016 1:01 PM

CPT Jim Schwebach — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 13:01:45 -0400

Let us compare the similar standards of living for an entry level positions in comparable military and civilian occupations and how the compensation might stack up. On the military side let's assume that' E3-E4 under four living in quarters, eating at the DFAC and using on post facilities. On the civilian side let's assume an entry level hourly position not requiring a degree in a medium sized city(about 100,000) Let us also assume that the goal is to have 30% of income available after food, lodging, medical, clothing, and transportation expenses. Our civilian does not live with the parents but shares a place(2 BR aptmt) with one roommate. Rent is $700 exclusive. ($350 is our guy's share) Utilities are another $200 per month($100). $250 per month is spent on groceries, laundry and cleaning stuff(eating out not included). Full coverage health insurance costs him $650.00 a month. He joins a gym for 75$ a month. Spends about $50 a month on clothes. He drives a five year old economy sedan on which he carries a $7,500, three year note @5%. The payment is about $150. Insurance is another $75 a month. Gas is $150.00. Adding all that up comes to $1,475 plus $375 for a car. In order to meet the 30% level for discretionary spending($1,168) the ex SM needs to bring home $2,643 per month. That's 4.2 40 hour work weeks at $15.73 per hour. Our Service Member (E3-E4 under four) has an average income of about $2042 per month without allowances. Take out the Toyota expenses and you get $1,667 for discretionary spending. To make up the $499 difference our newly discharged civilian would have to work another 21 hours at time and a half each month. If he only made minimum wage, $7.25 here in Texas, he'd be working about another 122 hours a month.

And that's why I checked the "is a benefit" button.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 2:15 PM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 14:15:11 -0400

While deployed we still have bills. Its not like they disappear along with our families. I still have utilities car payments and a mortgage rather I am deployed or not just like most people I know.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 6:41 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 18:41:19 -0400

I do NOT get free rent! I get BAH and then it is ALL taken by on-post housing! I signed a lease with Balfour Beatty and if I don't get my BAH, for whatever reason, I still owe them that rent! It's NOT free rent! Also, I'm deployed to Korea right now, so they confiscated my BAS and have me a meal card. This is NO WHERE nearly as good as it sounds. I'm not allowed to take any food out of the DFAC, often work until after the DFAC is closed at night, or through the lunch DFAC hours. For the $350 (approx) a month that they take away, I could buy my own food and cool in the barracks for almost two months! This Korea tour is choosing my family money because we normally use that BAS for groceries. (Yes, I know: BAS is for the Soldier, not the family)
Also, there no more "free utilities" in housing. It's prorated, based on average usage, but if you go over the average, you pay cash!
Two of my kids have Autism and receive SSI for disability and they said that my kids don't receive as much because we get FREE RENT, which is absolutely false!

Response by PO1 Daniel Martin made Apr 7 at 2016 7:09 PM

PO1 Daniel Martin — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 19:09:04 -0400

Ok, just looking at 15 bucks an hour, for a 40 hour week is 600 bucks, or 2400 a month, that's almost 30K a year. I've been out/retired for so long I have no idea what base pay is now, say for a senior E6. My retirement check is about 1400 a month. When I was on active duty, because I didn't live in the barracks at some stations, I had to pay for meals at the chow hall. Yeah, I got a small stipend for rent, groceries etc, but it barely covered it at times.

Response by SGT George Smead made Apr 7 at 2016 7:22 PM

SGT George Smead — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 19:22:47 -0400

Interesting question. If you were to pay a Pvt. $15 per hr, but take away everything including health & dental then it would be worse. How would you figure in what the right compensation would be? Blackwater was getting upwards to $120K per year. You don't join the military to get rich, you join to serve your country.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 7:51 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 19:51:04 -0400

Honestly, there are companies, civilian side, that offer benefits, like medical, through them, that require you to see certain pre approved physicians or clinics if you are going to use said benefit. It's really no different from us getting BAS, our employer, the government, sends us to its approved health care provider. There are also companies, civilian side, that pay some of their employees to move across country or to other countries to work for them, and cover the expenses. With the salary we do make, expecting us to fulfill all those aspects of living and on top of that, uniform items that we pay for, I'd say it's making it fair, but that's just me.

Response by SFC Bruce Scott made Apr 7 at 2016 9:40 PM

SFC Bruce Scott — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 21:40:20 -0400

Besides BAS, quarters, uniforms, non contributory health care (including pharmacy, optometry & dental), factor in disability coverage, in service and post service education support, retirement and you cannot begin to say the average minimum wage job beats military service

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2016 12:59 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 08 Apr 2016 12:59:30 -0400

One of the Australians I worked with in Baghdad was shocked when he fond out we could choose to live off post, and get PAID to do it. They get quarters, their government contracts for the quarters. If they want to buy/rent a house, they get no additional income for not living in government contracted housing.

Response by MAJ L. Nicholas Smith made Apr 8 at 2016 3:23 PM

MAJ L. Nicholas Smith — Fri, 08 Apr 2016 15:23:03 -0400

Yes and no. It is more of an entitlement than a benefit. As such, it is "a right to a benefit specified especially by law or contract." As from that distinction, I have a hard time taking the debate seriously because of the lack of equity between the degree of sacrifice, commitment, and responsibility of a. the civilian fry cook vs. b. PFC Snuffy, 1-505th PIR. The bottom line is Snuffy earned what he gets and sometimes at great cost.

Response by CPL Evan Garrison made Apr 8 at 2016 5:47 PM

CPL Evan Garrison — Fri, 08 Apr 2016 17:47:33 -0400

Yes, BAH (or living in the Barracks/Housing), and receiving BAS (or eating at the chow hall with a meal card) is a benefit. When you receive those "benefits" you are not paying taxes on that money. With that said you cannot do a fair one-to-one comparison with a service member and a civilian.

Now service members do deserve and should be given a pay raise accordingly as inflation devalues their current pay scale faster than the allowed increases are covering for.

Response by SGT David Emme made Apr 8 at 2016 6:10 PM

SGT David Emme — Fri, 08 Apr 2016 18:10:39 -0400

Consider this. If barracks, on post housing, and chowhalls were taken away, what would be the chances of those stationed on a military base be able to find a place to live in the civilian market? Rationale is in many military bases, there is already scarcity in the housing market. Lets not forget often times there are bases clustered together-Marine and Naval bases clustered together. Air force and Army bases clustered together. Now think what this would do inflationary wise-would drive up prices in these markets-how affordable would they be? Now we are forcing troops who would otherwise not do so, go buy vehicles-usually new vehicles. Probably not much savings so even if a used car-taken on loans they would not otherwise take on. Now think about how long it would be for everyone to get on post in the morning. Now I never lived off post when it mattered that I need be there on time (until at Walter Reed when going through recovery and retirement in DC when you spend more time looking for parking on the facility rather then getting on the facility), but I can imagine you have to wake up pretty early on most installations currently to get in on time for PT/work. I could not fathom how long it would take is there was no barracks/on post housing-free living on post. Just something to think about-a different perspective.

Response by MSG Kevin Elliott made Apr 8 at 2016 10:10 PM

MSG Kevin Elliott — Fri, 08 Apr 2016 22:10:11 -0400

Yes, it is a benefit. Living in the barracks and eating in the DFAC may not be living in a mansion and 5-star dining, but it beats living in a car (been there, done that) and going hungry.
I was in units where we didn't have enough room in the barracks for the soldiers. The command decision was to encourage NCOs and senior E-4s to move off-post. Those that moved turned in their meal cards and started drawing BAH at the single rate.

Response by CPT Joseph K Murdock made Apr 9 at 2016 2:02 PM

CPT Joseph K Murdock — Sat, 09 Apr 2016 14:02:48 -0400

How is consuming things without paying for it not a benefit? If it impacts the wallet in the positive way it becomes a benefit. It's part of the total compensation package. This is like saying BAH and BAS are not benefits. You folks need to go to a budgeting class.

Response by CW2 Michael Mullikin made Apr 10 at 2016 9:00 PM

CW2 Michael Mullikin — Sun, 10 Apr 2016 21:00:44 -0400

Hmmmm, reminds me of the 70s when civilians were complaining about the military's "country club" lifestyle, mysteriously few tried to cash in on it. Don't forget you are also provided a spiffy and stylish ensemble, well suited to almost any social occasion, at no cost. You are provided, at no charge, access to an amazing array off weapons—pistols, rifles, grenades, mortars, assorted rockets and missiles, the best tanks and artillery in the world— these are the goodies that many civilians would do anything to use (except enlist); don't forget free range time, on the outside that can cost more than $20 per hour. Now the quality of life issues—what's it worth to have numerous people trying to kill you with firearms, bombs and lots of other things. What value do you assign to sleeping in a mud hole, eating MREs for weeks on end, taking a shower every week or two, seeing your spiffy camo ensemble caked with filth and torn to shreds. There are not that many civilians, other than scouts, that know the unique satisfaction of digging a hole with your entrenching tool then taking a dump in it I haven't mentioned snakes and poisonous insects. Oh, an to top it off, FREE MEDICAL CARE from some of the best trauma specialists in the world and some of the finest prosthetics in the world. Did I mention the part about getting shot at?

What would the average civilian be willing to pay for the above. The way for envious civilian workers to cash in on all these "freebies" is simplicity itself, all they have to do is enlist.

If you people are seriously convinced of the value of these benefits, I suggest you work out a number and apply the proper amount to your taxes. If you really think you're getting over kick in what you think you owe—everyone should pay their fair share, we need to spread the wealth around.

All of these things are part of the cost of the military doing business. For thousands of years armies have supplied their troops clothing, quarters, food, weapons and the other necessities for making war—it is expected and required. At its core I see little point to this discussion.

Response by SSG Jeremy Kohlwes made Apr 15 at 2016 10:58 AM

SSG Jeremy Kohlwes — Fri, 15 Apr 2016 10:58:19 -0400

I truly hate that comparison that has been floating around. We do have a lot of benefits that need to be taken into consideration such as the ones mentioned and also free medical and dental. All of that adds up to a lot of hidden compensation that civilians do not get and still have to pay for. Now you can make a couple points about not getting overtime or holiday pay, but that hardly makes up for the level of compensation we receive beyond our base pay. And for those of us out of the military working salaried positions (not hourly wages), we don't get overtime or holiday pay either.

One additional factor people fail to realize is that were the minimum wage to be raised, it would force an increase in incomes across the board to adjust. It would not be $15 an hour for ONLY the Johnny Fryboys out there.

Response by Sgt Edward Allen made Apr 23 at 2016 10:25 AM

Sgt Edward Allen — Sat, 23 Apr 2016 10:25:08 -0400

Technically, it is a benefit.

The only reason I will disagree is, and this may have changed since I got out in 1989, you do not get to choose the location or the room mates. You do not get to choose what you eat and you may be moved at any time from one room to another.

Example: As a private, I shared a room with 3 other Marines. The room was probably 12 x 12. The room was smaller than my bedroom when I was growing up. (Trust me, my room at home was not very large.) My room mates were all a bit on the strange side. In fact, until I was a Corporal, I had to share the room with many others. Additionally, you did not have the right to do what ever you wanted. Example, if you are renting a place in town, than you can drink. If you lived in the barracks, NO BOOZE!!. Also, no cooking, and you were subject to inspections at any time.

And, does living in a tent count as part of your room and board?

As for the free food. Only at certain times of day and only what is being served. If you didn't like was being served, then you have to go pay for it elsewhere.

Granted, you didn't have to pay utilities, unless you had cable in your room, but you also had no control. At MCAS Cherry Point, if you needed AC, you had to wait until after May 1st. It may be 90, but you are only authorized heat. If in the spring, it got really cold, then sorry once again, you are authorized AC, but not heat. Maybe you would be issued extra blankets. And yes, this did happen. In 1983, They had 85 degree weather on day and a light dusting of snow on the ground on the next.

Response by SFC Rob Hawkins made May 5 at 2016 8:21 PM

SFC Rob Hawkins — Thu, 05 May 2016 20:21:15 -0400

I believe it is a benefit of active duty service. Now whether or not it adds ups to being competitive in the private sector is someone else's job to figure out. For a young service member, these things must be looked at as a benefit. We all choose our professions, even in the service. We choose to defend freedom, and take everything, good and bad, that comes with it. Receiving free rent, food, healthcare, utilities, etc. is not something other professions offer. So chalk that part up to the good. As for no overtime....well....like I said, someone else's job.

Response by A1C Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2019 12:03 AM

A1C Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 29 Mar 2019 00:03:51 -0400

The pay is a living wage. But if you were to base our pay on an hourly scale we are definitely getting under cut, especially in the beggining of our career.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2019 12:16 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 30 Mar 2019 00:16:06 -0400

Single soldiers pay for their meals. $250-$350 every month is deducted from a barracks soldiers check. Regardless if they go to the dfac or not. Barracks soldiers don’t recieve BAH or BAS. If they do, it’s less than $10 a month. HAD and combat pay is only given on deployments and certain duty stations. Clothing allowance, while nice, is given once a year. Medical, while extremely cheap, isn’t free either. Just because they don’t recieve a bill every month for these things, doesn’t mean they’re free. As an E-5 living in the barracks, $858 is subtracted from my check every month for these “free” benefits. Not that I’m complaining. The cost of all this is still far lower that what I would have to pay as a normal civilian. Our actual benefits are pretty awesome. TA, MGIB, not paying for rent or utilities, commissary, payed leave. All pretty sweet to me.

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made Mar 31 at 2019 11:55 PM

Cpl Rc Layne — Sun, 31 Mar 2019 23:55:41 -0400

Do they still pass out the yearly earnings comparison statement?

Response by 1SG Paul Beal made Apr 3 at 2019 7:43 PM

1SG Paul Beal — Wed, 03 Apr 2019 19:43:46 -0400

All of the “pluses “ add to the equation of equivalency to civilian pay. Some of which are not taxable income. As a manager/professional employee in the civilian sector I rarely, if ever, worked a 40 hour week and was exempt from the overtime provisions of the FSLA. However, my civilian employer never asked me to lay my life on the line for my job. They also didn’t count weekends as a part of my vacation. Or tell me how far from work I could be on my weekends. If I was sick, I called my boss and stayed home. The list can go on and on. Having worked on both sides of the coin, I will NEVER begrudge the pay, allowances, retirement and time off that our service men and women receive. If anything, it’s too low!!’

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2019 12:07 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Apr 2019 12:07:59 -0400

The way I look at is this: I'm a single SGT. Been single my whole career. If/when I get promoted, there's roughly a 25K pay increase once you factor in the allowances. Now, that goes without saying, I'm used to it and conditioned to do more with less. I know people that flat out make more than I do and always seem to be in a bind. I think in many ways it hinders your ability to manage money. The only way it maintains its integrity is if the check for your rent is allotted and you simply dont see it and when you go to grocery stores there's a cap (your respective BAS) on what you can spend. Otherwise, people will do what they want with it; which they'll continue to do anyway but BLUF, I don't really see the entitlements as a benefit. The real world isn't going to give it to you so don't get complacent and used to it.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Dec 5 at 2020 3:19 PM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Sat, 05 Dec 2020 15:19:59 -0500

To get a good comparison between a private sector job and a military job you need to compare total benefits and compensation for each job versus the work requirements.