Is it worth it to knock out someone who walks on the American flag and then secure the flag?

SGT(P) Robert Viens — Tue, 19 May 2015 07:07:55 -0400

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2015 7:10 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 May 2015 07:10:06 -0400

Bearing in mind the natural feelings of seeing the Flag walked on, Id have to say no to punching someone doing that.............of course I would be greatly fighting that urge. Knocking them out will only lead you to trouble in more ways than you need and gives the Military another black eye that the hippie media will just use against

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2015 7:25 AM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 May 2015 07:25:55 -0400

As much as it angers me to say this, I think you must back up and remember that one of the things we have served for is the freedom of speech. The supreme court has ruled that such things are protected by free speech. SO, when you knock the idiot out you are actually going against what we served for.

React as you must, but I suggest you find a way to show your disgust without infringing on the others rights. Why? Because if one loses one's rights, we all lose our rights.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2015 7:30 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 May 2015 07:30:06 -0400

I'd take the flag, but not knock them out. I'm not sitting in jail for some asshole who wants to disrespect the flag.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2015 7:35 AM

SrA Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 May 2015 07:35:29 -0400

Not worth you getting a record or adding to your record. The implications are far more worse than the anger you have that'll eventually subside.

If you're going to actually scoop down to their level might as well get a flag that represents their beliefs, shit on it and burn it. At least you won't face any charges.

People whom desecrate our flag do more than just disrespect people. Whether we have a jaded history or not, we have evolved and so many of us love the U.S. They're ignorant and blind. All they're doing is making us proud Americans despise their cause and ignore their history even more. Classic temper tantrums is what I see. Cries for attention. I'm not saying that I wouldn't want to slap the living shit out of someone whom takes it upon themselves to burn or stomp on our flag, it's just not worth it.

Response by MAJ(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2015 7:42 AM

MAJ(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 May 2015 07:42:34 -0400

Considering you swore an oath to uphold and defend the constitution, I would say no. While it might make you angry to see someone desecrating a symbol of our country, it is their right. You swore to fight to defend that right. If you feel this strongly about it, draft up a constitutional amendment and find a congressional sponsor. Otherwise, find a way to come to peace with the fact that by stepping on the US Flag and getting away with it, folks are enjoying the freedom that you and millions of American Service Members (dead and alive) allow them to (possibly ungratefully) possess. We win!

Response by SSG James Doherty made May 19 at 2015 7:46 AM

SSG James Doherty — Tue, 19 May 2015 07:46:04 -0400

Perhaps a better question to ask is "is being charged with a hate crime, providing free publicity, furthering the cause, and dishonoring your service worth violating someone's constitutional rights that you fought for them to have? I may not agree with what they are doing but unless they are a direct threat I will not engage.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2015 7:50 AM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 May 2015 07:50:44 -0400

No, they're not hurting anyone. Hurt feelings don't count. I took an oath to the Constitution, so I'm obligated to defend them in that situation anyway.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2015 7:56 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 May 2015 07:56:39 -0400

What an interesting question. Because of the society we live in today, the answer is no- between instant media service, our litigation society, and an abiding lack of national identity on behalf of our citizens (thank you, so called social progress, for making nationalism a bad thing), it would end badly and fail to serve your purpose. That said, I wonder what the overwhelming sentiment would have been in 1944?

Instead, let me offer an alternate solution. Thank him, loudly and through a bull horn if you have one, for proving that the flag still flies by his actions. Do so in civilian clothes and without any military apparel (can't be caught up "representing the military in an official capacity" now) and do so about four inches from his face. Invite other citizens (still through the bull horn) to come and see what an idiot he is for trying to destroy the very reason his actions are not ending in a death-squad making him vanish. If that gets old, fire up the National Anthem on your phone/iPod, plug it into your vehicle with an AUX jack, and blare it as loud as humanly possible.

Or, for a moderate approach, ask him if he has a permit to protest in a public space and then call the police on the suspicion that he does not (most places require permits to stage a protest).

Response by SGT David T. made May 19 at 2015 8:14 AM

SGT David T. — Tue, 19 May 2015 08:14:15 -0400

One of the foundations of our nation is the right to criticize the government and trampling the symbol of that government is one of the loudest messages of criticism that one can engage in. We all took an oath to defend the Constitution which protects the right of the individual to express themselves. However, there is absolutely nothing preventing you from exercising your Constitutional right to express yourself in telling them how worthless they are.

Response by SFC Robert Wheeler made May 19 at 2015 8:32 AM

SFC Robert Wheeler — Tue, 19 May 2015 08:32:51 -0400

Guys, what seems to missing here is support for the very Constitution and laws you served to protect. It's a piece of cloth and it is also the symbol of our country and it is also a sign of protest when it is used in a demonstration. If you have a problem with protest, maybe you need to stop and remember how this country was founded. The flag represents everything good about this country but it also represents all of the current laws and policies that may not be so good for us so it stands to reason it should be used in protest. No flag flies "above" it's people but rather "for" it's people. The rights and freedoms that the flag represents are embodied in our right to protest. Maybe you guys need to learn that maybe your values need to be examined.

Response by SSG Adam Wyatt made May 19 at 2015 8:39 AM

SSG Adam Wyatt — Tue, 19 May 2015 08:39:54 -0400

No. They need to bear witness to s/he repossessing the flag to tell others what happened. Only when one gets assaulted should s/he strike the people that s/he swore an oath to defend. Sheeple are just that. Sheep. They don't do much else than procreate and make bad decisions (not all of them of course but the general "flock" as a whole). We must understand and practice tolerance because they don't have the discipline required to do so.

Response by SSG John Bacon made May 19 at 2015 9:01 AM

SSG John Bacon — Tue, 19 May 2015 09:01:22 -0400

18 U.S. Code § 700 - Desecration of the flag of the United States; penalties

(a)
(1) Whoever knowingly mutilates, defaces, physically defiles, burns, maintains on the floor or ground, or tramples upon any flag of the United States shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both.

(2) This subsection does not prohibit any conduct consisting of the disposal of a flag when it has become worn or soiled.

(b) As used in this section, the term “flag of the United States” means any flag of the United States, or any part thereof, made of any substance, of any size, in a form that is commonly displayed.

(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed as indicating an intent on the part of Congress to deprive any State, territory, possession, or the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico of jurisdiction over any offense over which it would have jurisdiction in the absence of this section.

(d)
(1) An appeal may be taken directly to the Supreme Court of the United States from any interlocutory or final judgment, decree, or order issued by a United States district court ruling upon the constitutionality of subsection (a).

(2) The Supreme Court shall, if it has not previously ruled on the question, accept jurisdiction over the appeal and advance on the docket and expedite to the greatest extent possible.

Enough Said. Enforce the LAW.

Response by SSG Kenneth Lanning made May 19 at 2015 9:05 AM

SSG Kenneth Lanning — Tue, 19 May 2015 09:05:27 -0400

Personally, I'd pull out my smartphone, open up the video feed, and start listing off the names of people that have died for their right to be stupid-while standing about 2 feet away from their face and looking them dead in the eyes.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made May 19 at 2015 9:06 AM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Tue, 19 May 2015 09:06:23 -0400

No, you're the one who will go to jail for it, strange as it may seem. Yes you will prove your upstanding resolve to the veteran community but is it worth tarnishing your legal standing to do so when the a-holes doing the stomping will walk away scott free?

Response by SGT Kevin Brown made May 19 at 2015 9:20 AM

SGT Kevin Brown — Tue, 19 May 2015 09:20:35 -0400

Is it worth it....hell yeah! I am all for the 1st amendment, but I am also for personal responsibility and answering for our actions. You stomp on our flag, I see you, I knock you out, the police arrest me, I do my jail time with a smile on my face. Justice.

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made May 19 at 2015 9:28 AM

LTC Bink Romanick — Tue, 19 May 2015 09:28:00 -0400

If you support the constitution, no matter how much you disagree, it's that person's right. Freedom is kinda funny that way. Freedom to defile the flag of the country that gave you that freedom.

Don't be so quick with the fists or you may end up getting knocked out. Lol.

Response by PO1 Matthew Hotard made May 19 at 2015 9:27 AM

PO1 Matthew Hotard — Tue, 19 May 2015 09:27:43 -0400

If you read the flag code you will notice that many things we do with the flag is considered desecration. For example when we place those little flags on sticks on the graves of veterans. most of the time the flag itself touches the ground, then they are left there over night with no illumination the lastly they are either left there to become tattered or are picked up by maintenance and thrown in the trash. If you think about it this is more wrong than what the protesters are doing because they were given that right by the Supreme Court. What they do with the flag may be distasteful in our eyes but it is totally legal and that is what we served for.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2015 9:27 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 May 2015 09:27:36 -0400

I believe so. I may fight for the right of freedom of speech but when you disrespect the countries symbol of this you are disrespecting all of us that fight for it.

Response by SGT Jim Barrows made May 19 at 2015 9:32 AM

SGT Jim Barrows — Tue, 19 May 2015 09:32:18 -0400

Always rembember Anger and sin not.
I wouldn't like . But in the end as others have said this is one of the things we served to protect their right.

GOD BLESS America

Response by SGT Kevin Brown made May 19 at 2015 10:16 AM

SGT Kevin Brown — Tue, 19 May 2015 10:16:44 -0400

A few small notes:

1. It is Flag, not flag. A flag is any flag, flow for any reason. The Flag (noun), when referencing the American Flag is capitalized to identify it as "The Flag", both as an actual object and a symbol.

2. I agree with everyone that has identified with their Oath and the rights of others, but don't forget, you also pledged allegiance to the Flag (both literally and metaphorically).

3. We are all responsible for our actions, whether we have the right to commit said action or whether it is moral or not. I have the right to free speech, but if I go up to a guy bigger then me and talk a bunch of crap, I can expect to get knocked out.

4. Whether jail time is worth the hand to face contact over this is up to you, but if someone spit on my brother and stomped on him, I would punch the offender out in his defense without a second thought. That being said, the Flag is a symbol of the sacrifices (deaths) of all of our brothers and sisters who gave their lives and since I have known some of those brothers and sisters more personally then others, someone is getting knocked out.

5. Jail is temporary. The satisfaction that you defended your fallen brothers and sisters honor and the Flag, that last the rest of your life.

Response by SSG John Erny made May 19 at 2015 10:19 AM

SSG John Erny — Tue, 19 May 2015 10:19:33 -0400

Get any angry mob together and ridicule the hell out of them at max volume, make them feel unwelcome! Couple Dozen Bikes with Vance and Heinz Pipes pointed in their general direction should work also.

Response by SSgt Joe V. made May 19 at 2015 10:22 AM

SSgt Joe V. — Tue, 19 May 2015 10:22:44 -0400

Is it worth it...yes.

Should you? Well that depends on the level of 'coverage' in the area. I think taking into account the concern of cell phone video coverage in the immediate area and the awareness for CCTV coverage depending on where this takes place, as well as witness availability and speed of weapon delivery - you could make a case for whether you should or shouldn't.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2015 10:31 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 May 2015 10:31:08 -0400

I told everyone through a FB status to calm down about this flag stomping business. It's perfectly legal, SHOULD be perfectly legal, and just ignore the idiots. To summarize her responses, a young lady said I didn't know what I was talking about and implied I'm less patriotic/american than she is and probably shouldn't have served in the military.

These are the people I deal with. I just hope the conversation we had was educational. Though, I suspect, she didn't listen to a word I said about the BoR or Texas V Johnson.

c'est la vie

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2015 10:37 AM

SrA Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 May 2015 10:37:47 -0400

A friend of mine put it best.

I was willing to give my life for that flag going to jail doesn't mean shit.

Response by SPC Larry Boutwell made May 19 at 2015 11:26 AM

SPC Larry Boutwell — Tue, 19 May 2015 11:26:38 -0400

Its illegal to desecrate the flag like that look it up i dont think first amendment protects desecration of the flag

Response by SSG Timothy McCoy made May 19 at 2015 11:46 AM

SSG Timothy McCoy — Tue, 19 May 2015 11:46:06 -0400

Take 'em out at the knees.
Rah Rah Ree kick in the knee,
Rah Rah Rass kick him in the .... other knee.
Do whatever your bank account can handle.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made May 19 at 2015 12:39 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Tue, 19 May 2015 12:39:15 -0400

Remember, you also have freedom of speech but the moment you speak and express yourself against these cowardly and ignorant flag stompers, someone is going cry and tell you they have "freedom of speech" along with a slew of crap house lawyer dialog. Can you assault them and commit theft against them? You can not unless you want a criminal record. What you could do is get a picture of a race baiter like Al Sharpton or Jessie Jackson and stop on their pictures in front of them. I bet someone on their side will assault you then you will have the legal ability to use self defense.

Response by SSG VNicia Young made May 19 at 2015 12:39 PM

SSG VNicia Young — Tue, 19 May 2015 12:39:35 -0400

I wouldn't do it because I love my career, but if I could it would be well worth it. The same flag that they walk across if the same flag that lead from the front of the battles and wars that my brothers and sisters fought for this country. And its hurts knowing that the same people they went out and lost there live for can disrespect them. They same flag lay on the casket of those who lost there live so it makes me feel like they are stomping of my fellow brother and sisters and it hurts inside. Especially knowing I cant do anything to them.

Response by CPL Matthew Yates made May 19 at 2015 12:57 PM

CPL Matthew Yates — Tue, 19 May 2015 12:57:03 -0400

It's a $1 fine in Texas...I've got a crisp $100 bill ready...

Response by CPT Carl Kisely made May 19 at 2015 1:00 PM

CPT Carl Kisely — Tue, 19 May 2015 13:00:02 -0400

Up to you, but remember you're the one that will be charged with assault. Might just want to take a chill pill.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2015 1:08 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 May 2015 13:08:28 -0400

I would take the flag from the idiot and try to explain what the flag represents and that what he/she is doing to the flag is just wrong, and then I would tell him/her that if they want change that they vote or better yet serve in the military.

Response by SSG Derek Varchulik made May 19 at 2015 1:40 PM

SSG Derek Varchulik — Tue, 19 May 2015 13:40:36 -0400

I wish I could knock some one out for this... unfortunately it is against the law.... and an assault charge isn't good..

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2015 2:01 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 May 2015 14:01:03 -0400

Legally... no.
On a personal level... absolutely.

The right answer is to respectfully ask for the flag. I would rather give some ahole 20 bucks then let him disrespect the flag and every one it stands for. Also it is a lot cheaper then lawyer fees too.

Response by CPT Jason Torpy made May 19 at 2015 4:32 PM

CPT Jason Torpy — Tue, 19 May 2015 16:32:13 -0400

prefer freedom of speech to protecting american symbols. When American ideals come into conflict, protect actual freedoms over symbols of freedom.

Response by SGT Anthony Bussing made May 19 at 2015 8:58 PM

SGT Anthony Bussing — Tue, 19 May 2015 20:58:07 -0400

this past friday, a teacher in a local high school did this in front of his class....

http://wthitv.com/2015/05/19/upset-in-martinsville-involving-the-american-flag/

"It's just disgraceful," Martinsville in an uproar after teacher accused of stomping on American...

A controversial situation involving a teacher has thrown a community in an uproar.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made May 19 at 2015 9:27 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Tue, 19 May 2015 21:27:52 -0400

It might bring very temporary satisfaction and get a lot of suport from veterans, but unfortunately it is illegal. Breaking the law to protest this takes us a step closer to being just like these lost souls who are ignorantly doing the deed. There actions might be constitutional, but they are morally repugnant in my opinion. Find out where they work and boycott the stores, legally protest, raise awareness, but keep it legal.

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made May 19 at 2015 11:57 PM

SSG Roger Ayscue — Tue, 19 May 2015 23:57:06 -0400

YES!
If you have to ask why, you are in the wrong line of work.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2015 3:20 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 May 2015 03:20:14 -0400

Burning or stomping on the American flag just makes you an asshole. Punching that asshole makes you a criminal.

Response by MAJ Jim Steven made May 20 at 2015 5:09 AM

MAJ Jim Steven — Wed, 20 May 2015 05:09:54 -0400

Not taking up for the flag stompers, but....that freedom of speech thing is cool until you say something that pisses me off????
Do I need a security clearance for a job, will getting arrested messs that up???

Response by CH (MAJ) William Beaver made May 20 at 2015 5:24 AM

CH (MAJ) William Beaver — Wed, 20 May 2015 05:24:44 -0400

Worth it? Probably not. Dude wouldn't get the point. Would it FEEL GOOD ? Damn straight!!

Response by SCPO David Lockwood made May 20 at 2015 5:55 AM

SCPO David Lockwood — Wed, 20 May 2015 05:55:26 -0400

Yes and No.

No - As much as I dislike seeing this happen we all fought so that these knuckleheads can express their right to freedom of speech.

Yes - Because it show their ignorance as to what the flag represents. I also feel that walking on OUR Flag is walking on all those who have died defending it. So disrespectful.

Response by CDR Michael Goldschmidt made May 20 at 2015 8:31 AM

CDR Michael Goldschmidt — Wed, 20 May 2015 08:31:57 -0400

So, disrespect should beget violence? That's what you're saying if you think it's alright to harm someone for insulting you. I can't condone that or even respect it

Response by CPO Richard Ullom MSITM, CISM, CERP, HISP made May 20 at 2015 9:14 AM

CPO Richard Ullom MSITM, CISM, CERP, HISP — Wed, 20 May 2015 09:14:42 -0400

Well not a knockout but maybe a quick throat punch if no one is looking

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2015 10:10 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 May 2015 10:10:41 -0400

two fold question. if you do it, I am sure after your article 15 or court martial, everyone in that room will want to thank you as they are passing judgement. dare do we dream that one day we will step back to the 40s and 50s to where such behavior would have been commended. but we live in a different society and leaders are pressured to respond vigilant and harsh. so the question can only be asked to the defender. is this flag of honor worth the consequences?

Response by SSG Timothy McCoy made May 20 at 2015 12:59 PM

SSG Timothy McCoy — Wed, 20 May 2015 12:59:09 -0400

Public Burning of the U.S. Flags.
I think we all need to learn how to and demonstrate how to properly burn the flag.
Any VFW or American Legion can help you do this, and we have a bunch that needs burning. If you will Learn to Burn and Honorably do so for the public in for different civic, social, political and religious groups, I feel this will be a Monumental and memorable occasion for all involved.

If anyone here needs/wants help putting in motion LMK here and I will get you in contact with the trainers no matter where you are.
Tim

Response by CDR Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2015 1:21 PM

CDR Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 May 2015 13:21:27 -0400

I believe that you would be guilty of "assault and battery". A felony in most places. Correcting the flag desecration with a felony is not a wise move.

The reason we wear a uniform is to protect the rights that our Constitution has given us. That includes freedom of speech, which desecrating the flag is (as distasteful as we may find it). In decking someone who is doing something you don't agree with, you are violating the rights that we defend.

Assuming that you are not in danger, grab the flag and turn it over the Boy Scouts for proper disposal.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2015 1:41 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 May 2015 13:41:47 -0400

That is up you. How much are you willing to pay in order to secure that flag? Are you willing to serve jail time? Are you willing to sacrifice your career? If you are, then hell ya its worth it. I have yet to see anyone do this in person, not sure what I would do or rather I would even think about the consequences before reacting.

Response by Sgt Tom Vaughn made May 20 at 2015 3:13 PM

Sgt Tom Vaughn — Wed, 20 May 2015 15:13:35 -0400

Yes. Enough said
SEMPER FI

Response by CPT Kurt Woods made May 20 at 2015 4:11 PM

CPT Kurt Woods — Wed, 20 May 2015 16:11:58 -0400

Not only YES; however, I'd recommend it. Freedom of speech is one thing but to defile the flag and to disrespect the blood shed by our soldiers is unconscionable.
Unfortunately Liberals, many politicians and our General Officers have succumb to pressure and lack a spine to stand up for what's right.

Response by SGT Craig Northacker made May 20 at 2015 4:30 PM

SGT Craig Northacker — Wed, 20 May 2015 16:30:45 -0400

Here is a twist on this subject - how do you feel about an Agency that continuously denies coverage that is legally mandated? Should they fly the flag when they disrespect it, trample our civil rights and abrogate their fiduciary responsibilities?

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made May 20 at 2015 5:15 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Wed, 20 May 2015 17:15:08 -0400

Section 3.

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted.

So if the purpose of inciting people to commit treason were the cause and the person was supporting or aiding the enemy say having the press their ? How about that?

Response by SGT Rick Ash made May 20 at 2015 5:14 PM

SGT Rick Ash — Wed, 20 May 2015 17:14:34 -0400

I am plenty big enough to take the flag away from someone without hitting them, as much as I might want to do so.

I also dislike seeing shirts made out of the red, white and blue, or hats, or bundled babies. It just makes me cringe. But I know how to properly dispose of a desecrated flag so I would take it away.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2015 5:22 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 May 2015 17:22:55 -0400

Professional. Do not forget that word. Use it to guide your actions.

Response by SSgt Charles Edwards made May 20 at 2015 5:26 PM

SSgt Charles Edwards — Wed, 20 May 2015 17:26:39 -0400

It's one thing to defend the flag from desecration, but there are two things to consider. 1) You knock someone out for any reason, you're getting locked up for assault. Some military and veterans would argue that such a case would warrant that action, but one cannot simply go around knocking out those who want to spit on the very symbol of the freedom they're being provided. Ironic, I know. 2) As it was pointed out to me in a similar post, to stop the desecration would be infringement of that individual's freedom of speech. Disgusting, I know. But, we've dedicated our lives to providing these freedoms, however misguided, to allow the dirtbags of our society to do what they please to protest/argue/convey their point. God knows I hate having my hands tied, but if a similar incident like the Baltimore flag desecration were to occur in my town, I would do everything in my power to protect that flag and keep it from coming down and falling into the wrong hands. Oddly enough, I don't think any charges were filed in that case, even though they should have been. That was state owned property that was vandalized. Pretty sure a few other statutes and local laws were violated, but that's none of my business.

Response by SFC Christopher Perry made May 20 at 2015 8:13 PM

SFC Christopher Perry — Wed, 20 May 2015 20:13:06 -0400

I don't know that I would say it would be worth it. I can say that I am not certain I could help doing so.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2015 9:29 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 May 2015 21:29:19 -0400

To make myself feel better, yes. I would go to jail for knocking some A-hole out for burning, stomping, or disrespecting the flag. To many people have died for that flag to let someone "express their freedom of speech". Plus, it would make me feel better.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2015 3:25 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 May 2015 03:25:27 -0400

The responses here, both for and against taking action, are passionate. Many argue in favor of defending the Flag based on what it represents. Others rightfully point out that we swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution and the very act of defending the Flag with violence violates the very rights for which many have fought and died to defend.

Why has no one addressed the Obese Pachyderm sitting dead center in the room?

What we have is a moral ambiguity. In the eyes of many, myself included, it is wrong NOT to defend the Flag while at the same time others rightfully espouse the idea that our rights as American Citizens must take precedence in this situation. I remember an old quote, "While I may not agree with what you're saying, I will defend to the death your right to say it" (with apologies to the original author...).

IMHO, I feel like both sides of this disagreement on RP could probably find common ground by accepting that 1) it is wrong to deface or show disrespect to the Flag (with all argument for or against Freedom of Speech/Expression set aside for the moment - just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD) and, 2) those individuals choosing to take this action have every right to do so even if it is morally repugnant to many.

This reminds me of another conversation I had recently about people filing lawsuits or taking action because they were offended over some perceived action or insult. We have many "rights" in this country. Last time I checked the "right" to NOT be offended is NOT one of them. Sometimes, in order to do the right thing and hold the higher ground, we need to "choose" to not be offended and walk away - or to BE offended - and walk away.

Remember, much of the argument against Conservatives, Christians and the Military has to do with the mistaken belief that those belonging to, or identifying with, these groups are Intolerant of others. Many with opposing points of view to those groups I mentioned above want to redefine Tolerance so non-acceptance equals InTolerance. To Tolerate something is to NOT ACCEPT that thing but to - put up with it, deal with it, let it exist - without action on your part.

In order to hold the higher moral ground we must tolerate those who would express their constitutional rights by desecrating the Flag - and remember that our brothers and sisters who died in service to our country did so not in service to that Flag - or really even in service to the Constitution - but in service to the very citizens who want to express their rights in this manner. If defending the Flag with violence means removing someone's right to disagree with us then we have done a disservice to those who paid the ultimate sacrifice.

Semper Fi.

Response by SSG Paul Lanciault made May 21 at 2015 6:21 AM

SSG Paul Lanciault — Thu, 21 May 2015 06:21:18 -0400

As much as I would like to, but an assault is not a protected right. I would try to find a way to secure the flag and it in its proper place.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2015 8:33 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 May 2015 08:33:09 -0400

This stomping on "Old Glory" make me sick! In my opinion it's a visible disrespect for the men and women the fought and died defending the freedoms of American's and others that called on the Soldiers, Marines,Navy and Airmen to remove or disable tyranny or tyrants grip on there God giving rights being violated. These flag stompers are not ignorant, they know what they are doing. But, on the other side of the coin, it is there right to voice opinions. You can voice your opinion in other ways. Knocking out lowlife will just get you in trouble sarge, but I understand. I per po that you can start a petition on desecrating the flag and get it to your Congress person or Senator. You need 1,000 to 2,000 signatures to submit it. I'll help you get it together.

Response by Sgt Blake Smith made May 21 at 2015 9:43 AM

Sgt Blake Smith — Thu, 21 May 2015 09:43:49 -0400

I hate it as much as anyone but I don't think that I would knock somebody out over it.

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made May 21 at 2015 2:50 PM

CPT Pedro Meza — Thu, 21 May 2015 14:50:49 -0400

No you can not assault some one for what the Supreme Court considers free expression.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2015 3:28 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 May 2015 15:28:16 -0400

Every action has a "re-action" or consequence. While it may feel awesome to put someone in their place, you are the one who will pay for it in the long run. Will knocking them out make them less ignorant? Probably not...Could you use your constitutional rights (that you fight for) to tell this "individual" what you think of their dispaly? Sure could. Remember it takes more discipline to turn the other cheek.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2015 3:32 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 May 2015 15:32:57 -0400

i believe it is, not sure how the clearance people will feel though...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2015 5:59 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 May 2015 17:59:56 -0400

Well think of this you cant`t shoot a bald eagle, because its a the national bird and symbol for our country, but you can burn an desecrate our flag that is the same thing.

Response by SGT Suraj Dave made May 21 at 2015 8:20 PM

SGT Suraj Dave — Thu, 21 May 2015 20:20:41 -0400

No. The Military WILL NOT defend your actions, you will get punished. The Military today is about appearances, not principle. You would get UCMJ for sure, and your commander wouldn't pat you on the back.

If you aren't in, well... that's up to you. If you think you can take them, and you aren't heavily outnumbered, use your judgment.

Response by PFC Luke Wiley made May 21 at 2015 10:10 PM

PFC Luke Wiley — Thu, 21 May 2015 22:10:17 -0400

sadly with the legal system now days no, not to mention as a veteran you will get tagged with ptsd............ too much bs if you ask me, but then again I hate jail for even if its just an hour

Response by TSgt David Holman made May 21 at 2015 11:22 PM

TSgt David Holman — Thu, 21 May 2015 23:22:09 -0400

That sounds like a loaded question. Is it worth committing a crime to stop someone from exercising free speech? Are you willing to put your career on the line for it? I'm not saying someone is right for walking on the flag, but I personally wouldn't assault someone to stop it.

Response by COL Charles Williams made May 21 at 2015 11:23 PM

COL Charles Williams — Thu, 21 May 2015 23:23:46 -0400

No. While I hate it, I also know full well I (we) have enabled peoples rights to be idiots within the confines of the Constitution and laws. I think I would definitely say something, but I try to temper when I resort to physical force.

Response by CPT Ahmed Faried made May 21 at 2015 11:50 PM

CPT Ahmed Faried — Thu, 21 May 2015 23:50:44 -0400

If you don't mind a stint in jail and the likely loss of your career, then absolutely.

Response by SSG Rob Miller made May 22 at 2015 12:19 AM

SSG Rob Miller — Fri, 22 May 2015 00:19:24 -0400

She covers us when we're cold. She gives us strength when we feel weak, she lifts us up out of the blood, the sand and gives us unconditional love. She does not discriminate. Man does. I will protect her to my last breath. I will teach my kids to do the same. I'm am a retired NCO. I have shed blood for her. I will protect her and all her glory . She lives because men and women like us protect her and all that she stands for.
9 liner for life

Response by SCPO Lee Pradia made May 22 at 2015 8:46 AM

SCPO Lee Pradia — Fri, 22 May 2015 08:46:57 -0400

We fight and fought for the rights of people to do whatever they want to the flag. Regardless if we like it or not, that's the law of the land. So, if someone wants to become a hipocrite, it's fine with me, because Ole Glory represents the people not the government, if she offends you, then go persue your happiness in some other country.

Response by MSgt Manuel Diaz made May 22 at 2015 8:58 AM

MSgt Manuel Diaz — Fri, 22 May 2015 08:58:21 -0400

No, just pick up the flag and give it to the boy scouts for proper disposal or if you no longer trust the BSA, then properly dispose yourself.... and if you happen to get punched when you drop to pick up the flag, then with defense as a defense.... block and knock the bastered out

Response by PO3 Kandi Peterson-Fritz made May 22 at 2015 9:08 AM

PO3 Kandi Peterson-Fritz — Fri, 22 May 2015 09:08:53 -0400

I'd secure the flag, and based on circumstances, let them know my opinion of what they are. After all all military "fight and protect" the rights of opinions like this.. but honestly the amendment protects them from government not from me.

Response by MSgt Michelle Mondia made May 22 at 2015 11:30 AM

MSgt Michelle Mondia — Fri, 22 May 2015 11:30:54 -0400

No! You're violating their amendments rights. Is it worth to knock out a bunch of Skin Heads trapcing around with swastika flags in KKK marches? If this idiots are protected under the 2nd amendment so should the dissenting voices of dissatisfied Americans.

Response by PFC Tuan Trang made May 22 at 2015 10:09 PM

PFC Tuan Trang — Fri, 22 May 2015 22:09:05 -0400

Even thought is offensive to me when someone do that, but hurting them will get you no where but behind bar.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 22 at 2015 11:09 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 May 2015 23:09:24 -0400

I have used this reference before - but I think it fits in this conversation:

From the movie - The American President (1995)

President Andrew Shepherd (Michael Douglas):
America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. Show me that, defend that, and celebrate that in your classrooms. Then, you can stand up and sing about the "land of the free".

Then the symbol of your country cannot just be a flag. The symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Now show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then, you can stand up and sing about the "land of the free".

Unfortunately, in 'free speech' you have to allow all to say their words (or you don't have 'free speech') - but it doesn't mean you have to listen to them. Walk away, turn to a different channel or station - you are 'free' to decide what you want to see and hear. It's always your decision whether or not you want to continue to read and/or listen to someone that is spouting off things you don't like, appreciate or believe in. Also, their actions you might not like - but if they are not physically hurting someone then you can't just go vigilante on them - or else you become the bad guy. Even though we might not like what is being said or being broadcast on some media or being physically done to some inanimate object - we cannot censor it or we become the very thing that we have fought World Wars over. I did not defend this country for over 32 years for it to slide into some facist or nazi type existence. I hope our new generations will learn from history and also actually read the constitution and it's amendements so that they will not doom us to keep repeating history.

Response by SGT Michael Glenn made May 23 at 2015 10:39 AM

SGT Michael Glenn — Sat, 23 May 2015 10:39:34 -0400

Just dont use your fist, use something that isnt going to hurt!!!!! I just popped someone in the head and it really messed up my middle knuckle...should have used a 2x4...lol

Response by SPC Alejandro Martinez made May 25 at 2015 3:19 PM

SPC Alejandro Martinez — Mon, 25 May 2015 15:19:24 -0400

Yes, but don't get caught.

Response by SFC John Trujillo made May 28 at 2015 10:48 PM

SFC John Trujillo — Thu, 28 May 2015 22:48:31 -0400

Do you really have to knock them out to secure it. Look up "The Greatest Play in Baseball" about some commie protester attempting to burn a flag during a MLB game. The right fielder, I believe, ran up with the intention of running the progressive hippie over but grabbed up the flag right before it could be set on fire. You can always follow them home and knock them out.

Response by CDR Michael Goldschmidt made May 29 at 2015 7:01 PM

CDR Michael Goldschmidt — Fri, 29 May 2015 19:01:59 -0400

This is from one of my Facebook friends, but I think it sums up this principle perfectly. There was a parallel discussion on Facebook.

"Every time someone insists that hurting someone for hurting the flag is a perfectly valid response, even a preferred response, they hurt the very principles the flag stands for, thus tromping said fabric themselves while taking their own metaphorical shit atop it. It's a paradox that so few unfortunately get. It's the concept behind the symbol that holds importance, not the symbol itself. The symbol itself is just a quick, easy, and visually meaningful way of conveying the concept BEHIND it. The symbol itself stands for nothing if you're trampling the concept in your efforts to protect the symbol."

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Sep 28 at 2015 10:11 PM

Capt Richard I P. — Mon, 28 Sep 2015 22:11:41 -0400

No. It is never acceptable for an individual to initiate force against another.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2016 3:46 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Mar 2016 15:46:30 -0400

Bearing in mind, I have not read anyone else's response to this, here is my opinion: Is it worth it? No, undoubtedly not. Violence is rarely worth the effort (ironic, coming from an Infantryman, right?). However, that being said, it certainly is satisfying to lay someone out for disrespecting what we fight so hard to defend.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Aug 4 at 2016 9:46 AM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Thu, 04 Aug 2016 09:46:16 -0400

Obv no one likes seeing such things, 99.999% of the time, that's i think, a given. Here's the thing that occurs to me: Is it desirable? Clearly not, certainly. Is it preferable? Also, obv not, certainly. That being said, certain fundamental issues are just simply fundamentally irresolvable, they always have been, they always will be. One can legislate, one can have court actions, on and on and on as nauseum, and the whole thing will just simply never be settled. I've watched video after video after video, seen photo after photo after photo, and it'll just never change. Should it? Being neither omniscient nor omnipotent, last I looked, I quite frankly haven't a clue, honest. That's way, way above my pay grade, personal viewpoints aside, there'll always be those who refuse to tolerate it, refuse to sit by and do nothing when they see it, and those who applaud freedom of speech, always. Who's right? Not clue one, as I said, no matter what i might personalpy think, or wish could be universally requisite. Sometimes, there are just certain questions that just seem to be, as I'd tried to say, fundamentally irresolvable, you know? Those who lived in ww2, I'd expect, couldn't envision such a thing, such a thing was clearly anathema back then; now, as society evolves, morality changes despite one's wishes to the contrary, one would hope not, however, inevitably, it just happens, and that'll just simply never change, unfortunately, you know? Just some thoughts hope they were of interest, honest, I'm not expecting to be agreed with. I just thought it a relevant philosophical point, that's all, honest.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2016 11:21 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Aug 2016 11:21:44 -0400

My DS (Ninja), would tell me to do the right thing and not get caught.

Do with that what you will.

Response by CW5 Edward "Tate" Jones Jr. made Dec 8 at 2017 10:08 PM

CW5 Edward "Tate" Jones Jr. — Fri, 08 Dec 2017 22:08:49 -0500

Walking on my flag doesn’t make you a protester. It just st makes you an asshole!!!!

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Aug 8 at 2019 5:13 AM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Thu, 08 Aug 2019 05:13:31 -0400

Is it morally wrong? To my personal way of thinking, of course...that being said, that whole topic has been gone over and over and over, repeatedly, time and time again, literally to a fare thee well, by virtually every level of court, incl the Supreme Court, and every single time, it's been decided that it's allowed, stare decisis, I gather, as a court would say, and I'm obv not an attorney, of course, I've just seem such terminology applied to such questions in the course of reading...it's just as simple as that...that being said, is it desirable? Certainly not...however, is it permissible? Apparently so...nauseating, certainly, however, apparently totally permissible, all the same, however much one might personally lament the fact, of course...in an earlier era, during WW1, WW2, or Korea, e.g., it'd most likely have never been societally tolerated, for the most part, I would think, from all I've seen on such a topic...however, this is a different social era, I'm afraid, and, that being said, morals change, frequently for the worse, I'd suppose, esp about something of that sort, however, one simply can't do anything to change that, however much one might personally deplore it, that's all I'm meaning to say, honest...I know I'm likely to be disagreed with, of course, however, those are just my own thoughts about the whole thing, for whatever they might be worth....

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2021 10:46 AM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Mar 2021 10:46:24 -0500

No. He wins. Your assault trumps his free speech. It IS our duty to properly destroy an unserviceable Flag though. If some gasoline accidentally gets on him in the process, shit happens. My bad, drop and roll.

Response by Maj John Bell made Mar 9 at 2021 11:07 AM

Maj John Bell — Tue, 09 Mar 2021 11:07:06 -0500

That's a question only you can answer for yourself. See what the penalty is for assault and battery in your state. See what your command's application of the UCMJ has been in similar cases.

In Michigan simple assault will get you 93 days in jail, a fine of $500, restitution for victim medical expenses, lost wages, court costs, plus attorney's fees. Plus the victim has a good case for a civil suit that would include punitive damages. Before it's all done you'll be several thousand dollars out of pocket, get some jail time, seriously damage your ability to get hired for anything more than entry level low paying jobs.

Then the military is at a minimum going to give you an OTH discharge.

If someone so brazenly disrespects the flag, I don't care for it. But it is recognized as a Constitutionally protected form of free speech.

Next question, keeping in mind your oath of service, is it worth it to knock someone out in order to protect someone else's right to free speech? I think so. I swore an oath that I would give my life, if necessary, to protect the Constitution. So I'm honor bound to protect the person that walks on the flag.

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Mar 9 at 2021 1:02 PM

SFC Melvin Brandenburg — Tue, 09 Mar 2021 13:02:12 -0500

I've done this. It was a singularly satisfying thing to stand there with the flag.

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made Mar 9 at 2021 2:26 PM

SSG Robert Perrotto — Tue, 09 Mar 2021 14:26:35 -0500

My opinion - it is never right to assault someone for executing their constitutional rights, no matter how distasteful or angry it gets us. In order to be free, we MUST allow the distasteful, the hateful, and offensive things the same rights and liberties we allow things we agree with.

Response by 1SG Dennis Hicks made Mar 9 at 2021 2:43 PM

1SG Dennis Hicks — Tue, 09 Mar 2021 14:43:34 -0500

Not unless you want to spend time in an ER for a gang stomp and maybe some time behind bars for assault. Its every Americans right to express their love and or hate of the flag no matter how it makes anyone feel, I would prefer to video or take pictures of this individual(s) and blast it out on social media and let Karma do its thing in the work place or around home. I have found that morons who burn the flag or stomp on it are just attention whores looking for recognition for their "BRAVE AND STUNNING" demonstration of the individual (GROUP) protest. They are not worthy of attention or even recognition as all they want is drama.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 10 at 2021 6:16 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Mar 2021 06:16:58 -0500

I’d just like walk away. As much as it might make me roll my eyes it’s a protected form a free speech. Also you don’t have the right to assault someone just because they hurt your feelings. That’s a good way to land yourself in some legal hot water and ruin your career.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Mar 10 at 2021 8:48 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Wed, 10 Mar 2021 08:48:55 -0500

Freedom of speech/expression is one of our most important concepts. The day you start hearing "you can't say/do XYZ to that flag!" is the day that flag most needs protesting.