Is it time to "revamp" Law Enforcement training, specifically when it comes to the force continuum and use of lethal force?

ENS Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Sep 2016 13:07:00 -0400

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2016 1:07 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Sep 2016 13:07:42 -0400

That should already be the case

Response by CPT Tom Monahan made Sep 23 at 2016 1:14 PM

CPT Tom Monahan — Fri, 23 Sep 2016 13:14:59 -0400

This was the case for MPs back in the 80s and 90s. I think part of the problem is that police are trained to use equal force when the see a gun even though they are not threatened by it. This line of logic comes from the Cities and States failing to respect the 2nd Ammendment. In contrast, consider how many police shootings involve Game Wardens.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Sep 23 at 2016 1:17 PM

CPT Jack Durish — Fri, 23 Sep 2016 13:17:13 -0400

When I was assigned to Hawaii, I arrived at a time when the Honolulu Police Department was stung by several allegations of excessive force. They chose to provide officers with additional training in hand-to-hand combat and other alternatives to use of deadly weapons, and psychological training in dealing with confrontations. Shortly after this program of training was completed, there was an incident when two police officers were confronted by two armed perpetrators. One of the officers was shot and wounded, and his partner talked the perps into surrendering. It was a very surprising response. Also, I believe, instructive. If you want better policing, you have to invest in your police, their equipment and their training.

Response by SPC Kevin Ford made Sep 23 at 2016 1:20 PM

SPC Kevin Ford — Fri, 23 Sep 2016 13:20:35 -0400

There does certainly appear to be multiple cases of the escalation of force policy breaking down. for example, the Tulsa shooting would seem like a case where passive resistance was met with deadly force. The police forces in general do have rules around escalation of force but it also appears that there is a breakdown between policy and execution in some cases.

The real dangerous thing is that breakdown in escalation of force naturally results in a breakdown of trust between law enforcement forces and the communities they are interacting with. If we ever get to the point where substantial portions of those communities believe their lives are in danger whenever they have contact with law enforcement and they need to arm and defend themselves, we as a larger community are going to be in a world of hurt.

Cameras and the internet didn't create this problem, but they have exposed it.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Sep 23 at 2016 1:46 PM

Cpl Justin Goolsby — Fri, 23 Sep 2016 13:46:30 -0400

If this is the escalation of force guide they use, then no I don't think this needs to be revamped. This seems to be fairly easy to understand and appropriate at all response levels.

Response by SGT C Mendez made Sep 23 at 2016 2:28 PM

SGT C Mendez — Fri, 23 Sep 2016 14:28:47 -0400

The UOF Continuum has already been revamped enough. There is another discussion about people telling the LA police commissioner to have officers run away if they are being threatened by a suspect with a gun. There are many different variables when it comes to UOF. It depends on the officer, the situation and whether or not there is a weapon involved. We can have all of the UOF levels in the world but there is NEVER a perfect situation. Just like there is NEVER NEVER NEVER a routine traffic stop.

Response by SFC J Fullerton made Sep 23 at 2016 3:51 PM

SFC J Fullerton — Fri, 23 Sep 2016 15:51:23 -0400

I am curious to know what defines "uncooperative" and "non-compliant"? If an officer asks probing questions not related to the reason for the traffic stop (in attempt to gather information for reasonable suspicion and probable cause), and the person refuses to answer them, are they being uncooperative and non-compliant, or exercising their constitutional rights? Too many simple stops get escalated when both parties (officer and citizen) become agitated by each other's behavior. The citizen gets upset because they feel they are being unnecessarily harassed, and the officer gets angry because their authority is challenged and the person refuses to submit to them.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Sep 23 at 2016 4:29 PM

SGM Erik Marquez — Fri, 23 Sep 2016 16:29:37 -0400

Is it the training and concept? Or the lack of following procedure, policies and the force continuum?
If it needs to be updated, should it include the fact, LEOS these days do not have respected power of authority. Many of us less young members here remember a time when you did what was asked of you by an offcier, just because they were an officer.. use of force to gain compliance was not common place..and when it was, unarmed "hands on" was often all that was required.
Today, no respect, no perceived athority, and refusal to follow instructions for anything from traffic citation to armed robbery is common place, and the person likley to be encountered by a LEO on the street is as likley to physically resist as not. Physically attack as comply. Words are no longer an effect tool of compliance...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2016 5:34 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Sep 2016 17:34:20 -0400

Absolutely. How much training do soldiers go through when it comes to this same subject? Then tell me that a police officer, who is *FAR* more likely to encounter a situation where deadly force may come into play, is sufficiently trained for said situation with an average of less than six months of training?

Response by SFC Bruce Pettengill made Sep 23 at 2016 6:51 PM

SFC Bruce Pettengill — Fri, 23 Sep 2016 18:51:54 -0400

revamp? you take every law enforcement agency in the U.S. and lump them into one? and you have no idea of the training and in service of all the agencies through out the U.S. Lets not start any federally mandated law enforcement system and let the local communities dictate their standards. TWO only two counting this last in Tulsa has determined that the level of force used was unjustified

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2016 8:47 PM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Sep 2016 20:47:03 -0400

You've got the BLUE STAR by your name now, Martin, Why don't you take your extensive knowledge and apply for the job of Omnipotent Being. Then you can make all the changes you think are necessary. Have at it. BTW, if you're going to talk about civilian police, don't use a military Force Continuum. Most civilian agencies have SIX steps.

Response by SFC Pete Kain made Sep 23 at 2016 9:15 PM

SFC Pete Kain — Fri, 23 Sep 2016 21:15:30 -0400

The Police are facing an escalating threat, often out gunned and out numbered, just what do you propose?

Response by SSG Jeremy Sharp made Sep 23 at 2016 10:34 PM

SSG Jeremy Sharp — Fri, 23 Sep 2016 22:34:38 -0400

I am an officer in Ohio. We have been using a force continuum for years and we have already started extensive training requirements concerning de-escalation techniques. Unfortunately, we still have situations such as the tragic shooting in Columbus last week where a 13 year old was shot and killed following the report of an armed robbery when he attempted to draw a replica weapon from his waistband when confronted by police who had saturated the area following the report of the armed suspect.

Response by SPC Erich Guenther made Sep 24 at 2016 11:18 AM

SPC Erich Guenther — Sat, 24 Sep 2016 11:18:56 -0400

I would say definitely yes. As I mentioned in a past post, it's not only training it is the current structure that Police Departments operate in. I like the German Model of Policing. I think it can work here with some fine tuning but it would be a massive change so as part of the deal I would offer early retirement to the existing cops that could not or were unwilling to deal with the changes.

Also, have a huge issue with our Justice system which needs reform from the court system through the prison system. If someone is apprehended by the cops 12 times, their last punishment should not be probation. We should not be warehousing folks in prison either, our redecisivism rate should be a LOT lower than it is.

The point I am trying to make though is you can't reform the police without also reforming the Justice system. It's a full package.

Response by SGT Keith Boettcher made Sep 24 at 2016 12:24 PM

SGT Keith Boettcher — Sat, 24 Sep 2016 12:24:43 -0400

Somewhere, somehow the system lost its structure in training and process of hiring/screening recruits and personnel for the duty of "Protect and Serve". My feelings on this is the "strong arm tactics" being taught and discussed in the Law Enforcement Training Academies and Classes.
As a former and retired law enforcement officer and Academy Intructor. My specialty was; report writing, court demeanor, and officers street survival. One thing that was was stressed by every Intructor in every class of instruction was; your initial approach, appearance, attitude, and voice will have a lot to do with either escalating or de-escalating the situation at hand. If you jump out of your squad car like you are out to whip someone's butt it's gonna get nasty real fast. But, if you think it through on the wait to the call and assess the situation when you arrive at the scene like you are the level-headed educated professional like you are, then the tables will turn. 99.9% of the time there is no need to draw your weapon or for anyone to start becoming violent. And if there is an individual whom is the. Instigator and violent you removing separate him from everyone else to quell issue plain simple.
But, somewhere in this society of political correctness, everything has just gotten lost.
Just as our military has become under the umbrella of political correctness in its operation and discipline.