Is it possible for a SM with a P2 profile to hold the position of 1SG or CSM?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 15:55:30 -0400

Response by SFC Rich Carey made Apr 15 at 2014 3:59 PM

SFC Rich Carey — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 15:59:39 -0400

Sure why couldn't this be possible. Does the profile inhibit
the SM from performing their job? You can have a P2 for glasses. What you need
to look at is not the P@ itself, but what are the restrictions of the profile.
Then a call can be made based upon the physical qualifications of the job.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2014 4:08 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 16:08:37 -0400

Yes

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Apr 15 at 2014 4:37 PM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 16:37:48 -0400

Yes, but, I saw very few in their original MOSs that had a P2 get selected to MSG and even less to SGM/CSM.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Apr 15 at 2014 5:07 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 17:07:39 -0400

Probably a majority of them do have P2 profiles. LOL

Response by SFC Stephen P. made Apr 15 at 2014 5:40 PM

SFC Stephen P. — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 17:40:05 -0400

I've seen plenty with 2s and 3s in the PULHES. It all depends on the MOS and the board results.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 7:27 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 07:27:20 -0400

Possible: yes

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Apr 16 at 2014 8:12 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 08:12:35 -0400

I'm inclined to think that if you've made it to that point and your body is still pristine, what deployments/ruck marches/runs have you been dodging, and how were you so succesful at dodging them?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 8:42 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 08:42:06 -0400

Profiles do not prevent you from leadership positions. If you are a HT/WT or APFT failure you can not serve in a position of leadership. That does not hold true for physical profiles. Once considered "fit for duty" your profile limitation no longer should have an impact on your leadership roles such as 1SG/CSM. There are certain units that do not have leaders who are on profile in those positions because of their function such as Airborne/Air Assault or elite units. The ideology behind this is there is a higher level of fitness needed and they often include upper body or endurance/aerobic such as running. Promotions Boards cannot see your pulhes.

Ultimately this is not a disqualifier but as with anything in the military. Various people have bias and/or it's your level of competitiveness as a whole. A leader is not determined by physical fitness; however, this profession does require some level of fitness.

My personal opinion, any leader who takes care of me I will put that leader on my back if I had too. As long as I know they would do the same for me and are capable of fighting through whatever pain or injury in a combat situation. Heart is much more of a indication of combat function than knocking out 90+ push ups. I can care less about that persons profile as long as it didn't affect their work/duty performance. Lead Me, Follow Me, or Get the HECK OUT OF MY WAY (General Patton).

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 9:57 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 09:57:29 -0400

I do not see why not? A Leader is more than a profile in their record. Leaders should be evaluated and put in Leadership positions because of their overall contributions to the Army and their potential. I belive that at the Senior Level, CDRs and CSMs should really invest the time to assess what kind of Leaders they are assigning within their units. A profile should not affect my abilities to perform my duties if I was to hold any of those positions; therefore I should not be judged if I had a any kind of profile.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 9:58 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 09:58:32 -0400

Excellent question, and for me, quite a relevant one. I have a P2 for upper and lower body. I just recently got selected for MSG on the 2014 list and I have over 7 years to go before retirement eligibility. The odds of being placed in a 1SG billet or being selected for SGM are pretty high given the time I have remaining in the Army. All of that being said, this has been a conundrum I have contemplated numerous times. I feel that I have deployed 3 times with this profile, to include an advisor role in Afghanistan, proving that I am willing to do what the army needs me to do but, I also think a leader should lead from the front. I think it would be hard to hold a solid image with your soldiers if you can't lead them on a company run. It's very conflicting for the person for the profile.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 10:44 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 10:44:16 -0400

SSG Greer,

After 10+ years of war (and 2-3 decades in uniform) I think half the 1SGs and CSMs I know have a P2. I have been very lucky since I am in the same age range as most of these gentlemen but haven't broken anything badly enough to need a permanent profile yet. It's hell getting old! :)

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 10:53 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 10:53:29 -0400

SSG Greer, good question. I expected to see a
lot more debate on this. There are two popular trains of thought on this. What’s
the P2 for? Is it for something that would limit your physical abilities and
prevent you from taking all required events on the APFT, PU/SU/ 2 Mile Run? The hard line school of thought is usually
driven by the “Lead by Example or Lead from the Front” attitude. If you are one
who truly embraces this then the simple answer is NO, an individual who can’t
meet all the standards that their Troops are expected to meet should not be in
a 1SG, CSM, or of even PLT SGT or Squad Leader Position. I’ve worked with a few
NCOs throughout my career who, when they were put on permanent profile, dropped
their retirement packet because they truly embraced this and loved their job
and decided if they couldn’t be out there running, rucking, and jumping with
their Troops then it was time for them to get out so an NCO that could do all
these things had an opportunity to move up.

The other side of that is looking at the “Whole Soldier”. Just
because a Troop has a profile that prevents them from being able to do certain
physical activities does not mean they can’t be an effective Leader. Just the
opposite, they could actually serve as an example to younger Troops who are
injured or on profile thereby giving them hope that they could make it to that
level. Another argument I have heard to support this is the reason for the
profile, did the Troop get injured in the line of duty, during a training
event, was it a combat injury? If so, then why should the Troop not be allowed
to serve in a Leadership position after all they may have been out there “Leading
from the Front and Leading by Example” and in the process of doing this they
were injured to such an extent that they now are on a permanent profile.

I have met great NCOs throughout my career who have been on
permanent profiles; I have met mediocre Leaders who were in great physical condition
so pick your opinion. The only thing I would ask is that you fully embrace it.
If you choose the Lead by Example side of this and you are ever put on
permanent profile then step aside so another NCO who can Lead by Example has
the opportunity to fill that Leadership position. Sorry for the length of the
post but this has always been one of my favorite debates.

Response by 1SG Alan Bailey made Apr 16 at 2014 11:42 AM

1SG Alan Bailey — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 11:42:15 -0400

<p>I always felt "Lead from the Front" I put off going and getting my back checked out till I had done my 1SG time and regret it. I probably did more damage by sucking it up for almost 8 years. I think it has alot to do with the time perod you came in the Army and the leaders you had, I would always hear them giving Soldiers alot of grief for going on sick call, so I would do everything possible to not go. </p><p>But, I think you can be a great leader with a perm. profile. I have know alot of folks that where in great physical shape but could not lead.</p>

Response by LTC Jonathan Howell, CSEP, PMP made May 23 at 2014 12:15 PM

LTC Jonathan Howell, CSEP, PMP — Fri, 23 May 2014 12:15:12 -0400

Absolutely possible. The ability to hold senior leadership positions with physical limitations even predates the increased number of Wounded Warriors. One of the best Command Sergeants Major to ever lead me had lost his right arm below the elbow during a demolitions training exercise when he was a Staff Sergeant. He still epitomizes one of the finest examples of the NCO Creed for me. From the late 1990's.

JDH

Response by MSG Izy Veguillacruz made Dec 19 at 2017 10:43 AM

MSG Izy Veguillacruz — Tue, 19 Dec 2017 10:43:42 -0500

Yes