Is it fraternization to go shooting with an NCO after getting off work (shift work) to practice shooting a pistol?

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Mar 2020 13:49:33 -0400

I asked one of the NCOs in the platoon if he wanted to go shooting and he said it would be fraternization. So I’m curious as to how it would be fraternization when it doesn’t violate any of the listed bullets in AR 600-20.

Response by MSG Danny Mathers made Mar 15 at 2020 1:58 PM

MSG Danny Mathers — Sun, 15 Mar 2020 13:58:43 -0400

No in my opinion. However, it maybe a gray area situation. A 1SG once told me that regulations don't cover every thing. The NCO considered it fraternization, was his opinion. Don't ask again except your peers.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Mar 15 at 2020 2:37 PM

LTC Jason Mackay — Sun, 15 Mar 2020 14:37:29 -0400

Your NCO was trying to avoid a perception. That perception could cause problems equal to actual fraternization. If you went and shot as a squad or fire team, that would be different.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2020 3:18 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Mar 2020 15:18:50 -0400

It's not specifically listed as fraternization, but could be viewed as such, especially if the NCO is in your direct chain of command. Chances are the NCO was just avoiding any and all chances of having the situation appear like fraternization. Just like it's not cheating on your wife to go have a beer with another lady after work, it might be in your best interest to avoid that question altogether by passing on that drink.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Mar 15 at 2020 4:08 PM

CAPT Kevin B. — Sun, 15 Mar 2020 16:08:50 -0400

It's the same reasoning behind Article 134, i.e. in the eye of the beholder. If they don't like it or the perception of it, they can call it whatever they want and make it stick. These decisions are made after the fact. Savvy NCOs and officers don't offer up a chance for someone else to decide. Smart A NCOs and officers love pushing that line around and then whine "everybody's pickin on me" when they get snagged. Don't grow up to be a Smart A.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Mar 15 at 2020 4:20 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Sun, 15 Mar 2020 16:20:25 -0400

Hunter- Fraternization is similar to Sexual harassment- it is the perception to others that has to be defended. Tho unlike the SH which is normally brought up by the 2 concerned, Fraternization can be brought up by anyone, more easily the SH.

Response by SGT Robert Pryor made Mar 15 at 2020 4:38 PM

SGT Robert Pryor — Sun, 15 Mar 2020 16:38:01 -0400

SPC Private RallyPoint Member. it seems as though it would be a lot more simple if everybody was invited, not just you and an NCO. When I too was a full bird corporal (SP4) I went plinking with two SFCs and a 2LT, but anyone on my team who wanted to go was invited, so there was no appearance of fraternization or favoritism. Hell, I never even thought that it might have looked like fraternization until I read your post.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2020 6:16 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Mar 2020 18:16:31 -0400

By going alone with you it creates the perception. It does this because if he does something that others view in your favor, like get you out of a detail, people can make the claim of a friendship from the range time. Easy way around that is to invite your while team or squad.

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made Mar 15 at 2020 6:58 PM

SSG Robert Perrotto — Sun, 15 Mar 2020 18:58:03 -0400

Perception, perception, perception. How will it look to the rest of your team, squad, platoon. How will it look to other NCO's and Officers in your company. Or how about that SGM that is at the range you and he would be shooting at. General rule of thumb, NCO's do not do things with individual Junior enlisted on a social setting unless they are family. If it was a team/squad event, sure, but not individual Soldiers. Even among NCO's there is a fine line of separation, with a general rule of thumb being one rank up and one rank down.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2020 7:43 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Mar 2020 19:43:52 -0400

It’s all about the perception, that NCO was smart!!!!

Response by 1SG Brian Adams made Mar 16 at 2020 9:04 AM

1SG Brian Adams — Mon, 16 Mar 2020 09:04:16 -0400

The good Sergeant does not want this situation (and most others) to be "Perceived" as fraternization...A friendly gesture on your part to ask the Sergeant, but He/She probably declined for the good of the platoon. More than likely, nothing personal...hooah!

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Mar 16 at 2020 10:37 AM

CSM Richard StCyr — Mon, 16 Mar 2020 10:37:54 -0400

It's a matter of perception. If you invited the whole team or squad to go, then the issue of perception would be removed.

Response by SSG Paul Headlee made Sep 1 at 2020 9:56 AM

SSG Paul Headlee — Tue, 01 Sep 2020 09:56:24 -0400

When I was a PFC about eight of us hopefuls competed for the only E-4 slot my company had. It came down to two of us. I knew the other guy. I had a good sense of what I was up against, I thought. I answered more questions correctly than he did. My bearing was better. My uniform and appearance were better. I had experience winning at guard mount, soldier of the month and quarter, competing for 3 and 4 day passes, etc. I had drank the Koolaid (before that became a thing the following year). Long story short, the other guy won. As we (the two of us and the board members) stood in the orderly room afterward, my competitor nonchalantly said to the SFC who was the board president, "Hey, is my wife still over at your house?" He replied in an equally nonchalant manner, "Yeah, she should be." SPC Hunter Stauffer you weren't even born when that occurred but I'll bet you can smell the stink still coming off of that one. I know you just want to go shooting and that's great. Could you perhaps involve the whole squad? Shoot for free beer or bragging rights? It could turn out to be something great! Avoid the appearance of fraternization. Those rules are there because some douche bags somewhere in our distant past hosed it up for everybody.