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We previously suggested that certain schools should be offered earlier than the current system--long before promotion to the next higher rank.
http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/careers/army/enlisted/2014/11/11/new-master-sergeant-course/18813527/
http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/careers/army/enlisted/2014/11/11/new-master-sergeant-course/18813527/
Education
Advancement
Training
NCOES
Leadership
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 8
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SGM (Join to see) , I thought that the SGMs Academy WAS the school for a MSGs next step up? I do not see any need for another school because if a SM was knowledgeable enough to make MSG then they should not have to go to another school just for their rank.
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SGM (Join to see)
Just like they did for Sgts Major Academy, get it going, put in training funds, then complain about TRICARE and retired pay that come out of DOD budget
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MSG (Join to see)
My question is will this be an Academy like the SMA academy, where the school is only held at one base; or will it be branch specific? Also, where will the instructors come from?
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SGM (Join to see)
Long ago, in an Army far, far away, unit training was unit based. Common core training was also unit based. Only the most specialized skills had a school, and that school was much like today, at the proponency. NCO leadership training was also conducted locally, by local NCOs from the Special Leadership Preparation Program designed to select trainees in Basic Training, to NCO Leader Courses for SSgt and below. Then came the advent of the NCOES programs, with new courses added for each MOS--well, almost each (low density skills usually fell through the cracks and had to attend the next best thing). Eventually, many new courses were considered common core--based on the officer model of "bachelor-master-doctor" training = basic/advanced-C&GS-War College. As in the Sgt Maj Academy = "doctor"; many would debate that. If NCOs are the backbone of the Army then the Sgt Maj Academy is the school for Chiropractors (see related Q)....now with CSM charm school, Battle Staff, 1SG, etc.
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SFC Boots Attaway
I remember the SQT, local PNCOC and BNCOC. Now that was training and testing of knowledge.
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NO! They've already dismissed the 1sgs course. At that, they dumbed it down so bad that it wasn't challenging. 1sg course is a good course to have. Just need to modify it. Battle staff and support operations phase 2 prepare seasoned seniors for the staff positions.
Problem is the seniors selected. Most don't want to play. So junior guys get those slots. I went to battle staff with more SSG than msg. More lt than Cpt. They were hungry for the ASI. The msg weren't hungry at all. Some felt that they got theirs so what's the bother. Another ncoes school with the current curriculum would be horrid. Hard enough to sit still diring BNCOC ancoc. Learned to buff floors again. But not much else. And that was years ago.
Before I vote a yes, I would like to see what exactly they are planning to teach me. Until then, answer is a solid no!
Problem is the seniors selected. Most don't want to play. So junior guys get those slots. I went to battle staff with more SSG than msg. More lt than Cpt. They were hungry for the ASI. The msg weren't hungry at all. Some felt that they got theirs so what's the bother. Another ncoes school with the current curriculum would be horrid. Hard enough to sit still diring BNCOC ancoc. Learned to buff floors again. But not much else. And that was years ago.
Before I vote a yes, I would like to see what exactly they are planning to teach me. Until then, answer is a solid no!
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CPT Robert Skinner
NO, no matter what! How about making MSG being challenged! Not a percentage but a pass of fail criteria?
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CPT Robert Skinner
The reason why I say that is because I had to relieve my 1SG Sergeant. It was crazy, because she was a good leader in garrison, but in deployment, she was a complete failure. I didn't complete my deployment. However, I've met many of my senior sergeant that should have been more prepared.
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MSG (Join to see)
hard to prep someone for a deployment, sir. the only way to truly know how one responds in combat is to be in combat. by then, its just too late. i too have met many officers and NCOs that weren't ready for the rigors of war. the only thing we could do is try to work with them. many leaders are great in garrison and you would hope that would transfer to the battlefield. but war is an ugly monster and it brings a new set of challenges. i didnt focus on simple things during my deployment. i focused on the mission. uniform violations, relaxed grooming standards, hands in the pocket, dirty head gear, etc. that was just a way of life in the sand box. and though i could understand the CSM position stating that standards still need to be met from a discipline stand point, i gave a little "leeway" but explained to the Soldiers that little things amount to bigger problems in the end.
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I think we should stop promoting people who don't have the skills and knowledge necessary to take the next step. Most of the leadership problems I see stem from accelerated promotions without experience. Standards and discipline have taken a huge hit because it's hard to instill discipline if you have none, and you can't enforce standards if you don't know them.
"Early findings show many leaders agree the course should include training in areas such as writing, briefing senior leaders, operations management, training management, mission command, doctrine, critical thinking, operating in a joint environment, problem solving and staff integration, Defreese said." -
Seriously? By the time you are an E8 you should know army writing, since we have to do it in WLC/ALC/SLC.
Anyone who is an NCO should be able to give a damn briefing or be fired.
Operations management? what do they mean by this? maintaining operational awareness and management of personnel? another key NCO task that should be known by this point. If they mean it from a staff point of view, there are staff courses for that already.
Training management... I don't even want to get into this. If you can't manage training by E8, you have failed as a Soldier and the Army has failed as an institution.
Mission Command/doctrine/joint ops/staff integration - staff course, 1sg course
Critical thinking and problem solving? surely by E8 you should have some thinking and problem solving skills... WLC/ALC/SLC not enough? or do E8's have grade specific problems that no one could possibly come up with a solution to except by going through this school they are proposing?
The entire subject is just some BS that a good idea fairy though up to get a medal or a bullet on their evaluation, or to create new jobs for their friends.
http://www.goarmy.com/soldier-life/being-a-soldier/ongoing-training/leadership-training/warrior-leader-course.html
http://www.goarmy.com/soldier-life/being-a-soldier/ongoing-training/leadership-training/advanced-leader-course.html
http://www.goarmy.com/soldier-life/being-a-soldier/ongoing-training/leadership-training/senior-leader-course.html
https://usasma.bliss.army.mil/page.asp?id=3
Forgive my brash response to this, but we should fix the Army structure as it is, before adding new crap to it.
It's like shining up the tires on your car, which are flat, and the engine knocks, and the windshield is cracked, and the battery is dead. Why?
SGM (Join to see) , I agree with the suggestion of offering schools sooner. We shouldn't teach you how to do your job once you get there, we should teach you before you get there.
"Early findings show many leaders agree the course should include training in areas such as writing, briefing senior leaders, operations management, training management, mission command, doctrine, critical thinking, operating in a joint environment, problem solving and staff integration, Defreese said." -
Seriously? By the time you are an E8 you should know army writing, since we have to do it in WLC/ALC/SLC.
Anyone who is an NCO should be able to give a damn briefing or be fired.
Operations management? what do they mean by this? maintaining operational awareness and management of personnel? another key NCO task that should be known by this point. If they mean it from a staff point of view, there are staff courses for that already.
Training management... I don't even want to get into this. If you can't manage training by E8, you have failed as a Soldier and the Army has failed as an institution.
Mission Command/doctrine/joint ops/staff integration - staff course, 1sg course
Critical thinking and problem solving? surely by E8 you should have some thinking and problem solving skills... WLC/ALC/SLC not enough? or do E8's have grade specific problems that no one could possibly come up with a solution to except by going through this school they are proposing?
The entire subject is just some BS that a good idea fairy though up to get a medal or a bullet on their evaluation, or to create new jobs for their friends.
http://www.goarmy.com/soldier-life/being-a-soldier/ongoing-training/leadership-training/warrior-leader-course.html
http://www.goarmy.com/soldier-life/being-a-soldier/ongoing-training/leadership-training/advanced-leader-course.html
http://www.goarmy.com/soldier-life/being-a-soldier/ongoing-training/leadership-training/senior-leader-course.html
https://usasma.bliss.army.mil/page.asp?id=3
Forgive my brash response to this, but we should fix the Army structure as it is, before adding new crap to it.
It's like shining up the tires on your car, which are flat, and the engine knocks, and the windshield is cracked, and the battery is dead. Why?
SGM (Join to see) , I agree with the suggestion of offering schools sooner. We shouldn't teach you how to do your job once you get there, we should teach you before you get there.
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SGM (Join to see)
Some of my points exactly....just as we train to fight the last war, we school to train the last promotion.
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