Is a missed appointment worth an article 15?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 Aug 2014 14:33:23 -0400

I understand that Soldiers are required to make appointments they schedule, it's their responsibility. Is it really worth an article 15? Maybe i just don't see how the Army is losing money if you miss a 15 minute appointment. It's not like they run those expensive machines waiting on you or even show up on time themselves.

Response by 1SG Steven Stankovich made Aug 3 at 2014 3:30 PM

1SG Steven Stankovich — Sun, 03 Aug 2014 15:30:42 -0400

SGT Private RallyPoint Member, let me turn your question around a little. Does not being at your appointed place of duty constitute corrective action or non-judicial punishment? If the Army loses money because of a missed appointment is not relevant. What is relevant is that a Soldier was not at their appointed place of duty. Commands treat these offenses differently. Some will verbally counsel, written counsel, or initiate UCMJ.

The Army has made it a priority across the board for commands to cut down/eliminate missed appointments. Commands in turn place emphasis into correcting the problem. Some commands feel it is appropriate to initiate UCMJ actions for Soldiers who are not at their appointed place of duty.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Aug 3 at 2014 4:06 PM

LTC Paul Labrador — Sun, 03 Aug 2014 16:06:08 -0400

SGT Private RallyPoint Member , the reason why the Army makes such a big deal about missed appointments is because of the way we manage resources. First off, medical care is a finite resource. We only have so much of it to go around. So when you make an appointment, we are committing those resources to you, and that means someone else cannot access it. So that person has to wait or get's sent to a civilian provider which is not cheap. If you opt to miss it without canceling, and we are not able to fill that appointment (which is usually the case), that slot is essentially wasted AND we still have to pay for the person who was sent downtown because you took up a slot that they could have used. Now multiply that by hundreds if not thousands of missed appointments across the DoD. THAT is why we lose money as a whole.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2014 5:42 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 Aug 2014 17:42:33 -0400

I concur with LTC Paul Labrador and 1SG Steven Stankovich's comments. It does cost the military time and money to schedule appointments especially when so many providers are scheduled weeks out. My biggest complaint is when someone misses their appointment then they not only have to reschedule it but they cause another soldier to miss out on that slot. If they would have just canceled it then someone else could have been pushed up so their issue can be treated.

Let me ask you this. How would you feel if you were feeling very very sick and needed assistance quickly but the next available appointment for Dr Smith (just an example) isn't for two weeks. Now, you find out la couple days later that one of your soldiers missed his appointment, for a legitimate reason, with Dr Smith. How would you feel knowing that the appointment time could have been yours if the soldier had just properly canceled it?

Overall, I agree with a Company Grade Article 15 for missing an appointment although I'd be willing to listen to a very good mitigating reason for missing it.

BTW, every Soldier can check their appointments through the Tricare Online webpage. Log in then click on "Appointment Center". Once you get to the Appointment Center page, look to the right and you can see all of your appointments. You can even print them out. You can also schedule appointments and request refills of prescription medicines.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Aug 3 at 2014 6:52 PM

LTC Paul Labrador — Sun, 03 Aug 2014 18:52:30 -0400

SGT Private RallyPoint Member, as for whether it is worth an Article 15? That would depend. I would say jumping straight to an Art 15 as a punishment is a bit much, unless there has been an issue either with the individual or collectively at a post with appointments being routinely missed. At that point, commanders need to use the tools available to get that under control. If it takes handing out Art 15's, then so be it.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2014 7:00 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 Aug 2014 19:00:24 -0400

Article 15 for a missed appointment and for missing a 1st appointment! Really! Getting Soldiers to their appointed place of duty be it the motor pool, promotion board, appointments, that's NCO leader's business. I will be you that the squad leader, Section leader, PSG and 1SG would make damn sure a Soldier would not miss an appointment with the Bn or Bde CSM. The other half of that is teaching your soldiers why it's important that they don't miss their appointments (their personal health, care, and costs). Leadership should be making sure EVERYONE is the unit understands the dollars and cents problem the Army faces. This is not being done. With cuts in installation infrastruture maintenance, TDYs, training etc, Soldiers need to know and understand. They should be getting it from the unit and organizational leadership, not CNN, MSNBC, or FOX. Fear of an Art 15 is one way of doing it...but really! That's not leadership, that coersion. AS leaders you manage your Soldiers time just as the unit does with it's training schedule. I can not see this being a problem in any unit if the unit NCO leadership is effective and doing it's job. As a squad leader I didn't need my Section Leader to make me aware of one of my Soldiers appointments, I made him aware. The same applied as you move thru the ranks as Section Leader, PSG, and 1SG. Here's the flip side. All responsibility does not fall on the leadership. The Soldier also has responsibility. If the leadership has reminded the Soldier the day of and he/she misses it, they are full responsible. The leadership did not fail, the Soldier fail. It seems that in many cases today, when a Soldier fails, this chain of command is also called in get reamed as well. This is wrong. Soldiers fail from time to time, sometimes because they choose to fail and sometimes, "shit happens"! Correct it and move on, let's not make the same mistake again. But an Article 15 for missing an appointment....that's a leadership failure! Yes, Soldiers missed appointments in my unit when I was a 1SG, and if (rarely) the Commander asked me what was up, I informed it of what happened and that it was already in the process of being fixed. The thought of an Article 15 would never enter the conversation. I had a 1SG in Korea who felt that an Art 15 was the unit solution to Soldiers failing to get back to camp before curfew. I was a fairly new arriving PSG, when it happened to one of my Soldiers. We got into a very heated verbal battle over it and wound up going to the Commander over it. 1SG solution..ART 15, restriction, reduction and fine. My solution, Work for me every evening after duty for 2 weeks filling 100 sandbags along my motor pool line to help cut the wind in the winter along our vehicle line. After also explaining to CDR/1SG that this is a married E4 with a child, with the same bills we all have, split income with him being here...are we solving a problem or creating a bigger one. Mine cost no money, cost the Soldier time, work (cold as hell in Korea in Jan) and the learning experience of making sure he got back on post ahead of curfew. If you NCOs are just bending over and going along with the Art 15 option for missing an appointment, you're doing your Soldier an injustice, you've become a follower to poor leadership practice, and you're most likely a part of creating a bigger problem. A Soldier who does not have any confidence in his immediate leaders. Trust me, you can take a little heat from the 1SG a whole more than your Soldiers. Their respect for you will grow immensely. You can't prevent an Art 15, but you sure can let them know how you feel, it's long term negative impact and be on a Soldiers record always...for a missed appointment! Just an old timers opinion! WTH has is my Army coming too!

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2014 11:49 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 Aug 2014 23:49:15 -0400

It ain't army....but the Navy has a different point of view. Missing an appointment is often viewed in the same vein as missing ship's movement. Trust me...you do not want to miss ship's movement cuz unless the bridge fell on you on the way to base or all the tunnels are shut down for a massive accident or hell just froze over and you were right in the middle....you can count on an Article 15 at the very least and probably more. Missing an appointment is a big deal - really it is.

Think of it in another way - if you want to be seen as a professional who can be relied upon to do the job right the first time and be on time every time then don't miss your appointments. Be responsible for your own actions. Don't rely on some Sgt or the head cheese to keep track of things for you - do it yourself. If you can't keep track of your own appointments - how am I supposed to consider you one of those in line for promotion? If you can't manage your own appoinments, be there on time, keep your COC aware of what's going on (and NOT the other way around) then don't be standing in front of my desk asking for favors.

'Nuff said.

Off soapbox...resume the big suck.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Aug 4 at 2014 6:56 AM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Mon, 04 Aug 2014 06:56:16 -0400

In the civilian world you get charged for those missed appointments - big time. Lately some of my doctors have even increased the cancellation time from 24 to 48 hours. I rarely, if ever miss an appointment. I got a flat the morning of one of my appointments and had to cancel, the office wouldn't take the circumstances into account and I was billed $75 for my troubles on top of having to pay the co-pay a week later when I was able to reschedule. To top it off, I waited 30 minutes past my rescheduled appointment time in the waiting room because the doctor was running behind. The office staff simply thought it was funny when I wrote them a bill for $75 for my wasted time.

I wish it were the reverse in the civilian world because I'd be handing out Article 15s to the doctors who make you wait an hour or more - which seems to be, pardon the pun, common practice nowadays. A lot of times I have no choice but to use my lunch for an appointment. When you arrive 10 minutes prior to and are still sitting in the waiting room 45 minutes after your appointment time, that's just wrong. When you throw in travel time back and forth, my last appointment cost me 3 hours to barely spend 10 minutes with the doctor.

Response by 1SG Mike Case made Aug 4 at 2014 8:37 AM

1SG Mike Case — Mon, 04 Aug 2014 08:37:43 -0400

I don't think an ART 15 for the 1st missed appointment is warranted, because what happens when that senior NCO misses one, even if by mistake. I believe a counseling for the 1st missed appointment with your NCO Support Channel knee deep in your schedule to ensure you don't miss the next one. They wrote an article here at Ft. Gordon about it. It is amazing how many many people have missed appointments in a year and how much that costs for the missed appointments.

Missed medical appointments, late cancellations hurt others | www.ftgordonsignal.com | Fort...

Dwight D. Eisenhower Army Medical Center averages more than 4,600 per week of missed appointments or late appointments that were not cancelled or rescheduled.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2014 1:19 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 04 Aug 2014 13:19:00 -0400

Our standard is three missed appointments with out calling in or cancelling warrants a call to command and then there may be UCMJ. However command gets each missed appointment anyway. There are legitimate reasons for missing appointments. Last minute mission, on quarters, emergency etc. The only time discipline is warranted is when it is a pattern. However let's make it clear MEDCOM and the big army push clinics because the clinic loses money if you No Show or for unbooked slots. And now provider's have to make their ERVU's (like a quota) and this is part of their evaluation. The OIC and the command are also rated on their open/no show/unbooked unfilled.

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Aug 4 at 2014 1:27 PM

CW5 Sam R. Baker — Mon, 04 Aug 2014 13:27:33 -0400

I can say as a supervisor that I have given one for missing an appointment, a dental appointment actually, and ultimately it led to a referred OER and a early retirement for said officer. It was a sad event and one I really wish had not happened, but this officer just refused to go to appointments. I had been chewed on at C&S week after week and month after month and it had command visibility. Obviously the officer felt he had better things to do, which is what he told me for the last 9 and half months. I grounded the aviator and barred him from flying aircraft until the appointment was kept. I will not go into what transpired later, actually immediately after that, but needless to say, he can make civilian appointments now and the Army is a better place for it.

Response by SSG Jeffrey Spencer made Aug 4 at 2014 1:28 PM

SSG Jeffrey Spencer — Mon, 04 Aug 2014 13:28:04 -0400

I got two of them for missing appointments. One for going to the wrong place to pick up a LTC, the other for missing my morning detail.

They handed them out like candy when I was in. Was set up for a FG once, but beat all 6 charges on that one, one of which was to get a haircut. Completely unreasonable expectations given I was on TDY in Mountain Home, ID in mid-January.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2014 2:27 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 04 Aug 2014 14:27:05 -0400

It would have to depend on the circumstances. I'm big on individual accountability, but I also recognize that when Soldiers have it beat into thier heads to ensure their NCO knows about upcoming appointments, that NCOs should ensure the Soldier makes it to that appointment. If the Soldier is managed carefully and is reminded, yet still misses out of carelessness or blatantly blows it off, then disciplinary action is needed.

Response by SPC Kara Sport made Aug 4 at 2014 2:47 PM

SPC Kara Sport — Mon, 04 Aug 2014 14:47:35 -0400

In my past experince, it all would depend on why that appointment was missed. Did that servicemember do what they needed to do to contact someone and say WHY it was missed (broken down car, forgot, ended up stuck on some extra duty like KP or Staff duty and couldn't leave....) or was in intentional?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2014 8:11 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 04 Aug 2014 20:11:18 -0400

Actually, the cost of an appointment, for whichever reason you schedule it, costs money. In Fort Carson, they would post the cost of certain types of appointments in civilian form showing that however minute one feels about a missed appointment, that spot could have been given to someone who actually needs it and would have kept their appointment. Article 15's may be a little harsh for first time offenders, but repeat offenders, once counseled, should be shown the severity and administratively dealt with accordingly.

Response by SFC Paul Hunt made Aug 4 at 2014 11:17 PM

SFC Paul Hunt — Mon, 04 Aug 2014 23:17:07 -0400

I know it is extreme but yes!! not everyone get a trophy. Sweat the small stuff! If we don't hold ourselves to a higher standard, what are we left with?

Response by SSG Scott Campbell made Aug 4 at 2014 11:31 PM

SSG Scott Campbell — Mon, 04 Aug 2014 23:31:25 -0400

I feel that if the SM is going to get a Article 15 for missing a appointment then the leadership should have something done to them as well, I say this because I have seen where a SM has informed their chain that they had a appointment numerous times before the date and then the leadership tells the SM that they can not go to the appointment because they need the SM to take care of something and then hammer the SM for missing the appointment, or they clam that they(leadership) did not know about it, even when they have a copy of the SM's appointments on their desk.

Response by SPC Michelle M. made Aug 5 at 2014 1:17 PM

SPC Michelle M. — Tue, 05 Aug 2014 13:17:48 -0400

Its about personal accountability and responsibility, and depending on what kind of appointment it was, someone else could have taken that spot. Things happen at times when you cant make the appt, (mission or emergencies) but just blowing it off is irresponsible. Now an Article 15 for 1st offense it may be a little harsh but if they have a habit of missing appts then yes i would have recommended one.

Response by Cpl Rick Kimbrell made Aug 5 at 2014 8:21 PM

Cpl Rick Kimbrell — Tue, 05 Aug 2014 20:21:55 -0400

Yes

Response by Cpl Rick Kimbrell made Aug 5 at 2014 8:22 PM

Cpl Rick Kimbrell — Tue, 05 Aug 2014 20:22:52 -0400

Yes

Response by LTC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2014 8:58 PM

LTC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 Aug 2014 20:58:46 -0400

I agree with CPT. Warren and with many of the other comments above. Medical services need to be provided for all SM's regardless of cost. This is a duty of the services to take care of their personel. This must be provided cost effectively in order to be good stewards of tax dollars. But, not provided as per the civilian model. Sure the civilian model is much more efficient and cost effective but this model is risk aversive and will not provide care that might result in litigation; military physicians might take a chance to fix a problem rather than leave someone disabled. As well civilian documentation is usually sparse as these providers must turn patients over fast. Military and VA physicians must document very carefully and completely otherwise any future disability claim with the VA may be compromised resulting in lost benefits when you may most need them. Just some thoughts on prior comments.
As far as UCMJ for missed appointments; this should be a last resort. Given so many reasons for missing appointments from misguided leaders not allowing the SM to attend due to mission priorities (only mission priority should be SM'S health), not providing transportation as a priority, not reminding SM that the appointment is their duty location that day and not tracking attendance like sick call. If after reminders and providing time an transportation the SM misses his duty assignment without good reason and without notifying his chain of such in advance or being unable to, then discipline may be warranted with each situation evaluated individually and demonstrating willfully negligent behavior. Also be advised that all physicians get overbooked or not given enough time to provide the treatment necessary and thus physician's can normally run late.

Response by SGT Jason Arnold made Aug 5 at 2014 11:53 PM

SGT Jason Arnold — Tue, 05 Aug 2014 23:53:20 -0400

You might have been sitting on the Cat3/Cat4 list. Which makes you non-deployable. Which means that 15 min appt. you missed has a bigger visibility than you might think. :/

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 6 at 2014 12:08 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 Aug 2014 00:08:34 -0400

The bottom line is you have an appointed duty place. Your responsibility is there. The UCMJ is to make you aware of being irresponsible.

Response by Sgt Gabino Valdez made Aug 6 at 2014 1:15 AM

Sgt Gabino Valdez — Wed, 06 Aug 2014 01:15:05 -0400

Sounds more like a "last straw" type of thing. You know, the one that broke the camels back. One of those let this freaking guy give me one more reason.

Response by MSgt Willie County Jr made Aug 6 at 2014 12:55 PM

MSgt Willie County Jr — Wed, 06 Aug 2014 12:55:56 -0400

And what about my time when I sit there for 30,45,60 minutes waiting to be seen for a scheduled appointment- Is anyone going to get an Article 15 for wasting my time????????? Probably NOT!! It really sucks when so called rules are one sided!!!!

Response by SGT G Colson made Aug 6 at 2014 3:54 PM

SGT G Colson — Wed, 06 Aug 2014 15:54:28 -0400

Welcome to the peacetime military. Let's see what other things we can think of that we can use to drum out anyone who doesn't fit the bureaucratic OCD mold.

Response by SMSgt Frank Yukon made Aug 6 at 2014 5:30 PM

SMSgt Frank Yukon — Wed, 06 Aug 2014 17:30:20 -0400

E-9 getting Article 15 for missing an appointment. Really?? Maybe the Article 15 will prevent the Soldier from being promoted to E-10.

Response by SMSgt Frank Yukon made Aug 6 at 2014 5:31 PM

SMSgt Frank Yukon — Wed, 06 Aug 2014 17:31:54 -0400

Article 15 for an E-9 missing an appointment??? Are you serious?? Maybe the Article 15 will prevent promotion to E-10?? Go figure :)

Response by SP6 Eric Rob made Aug 7 at 2014 4:54 PM

SP6 Eric Rob — Thu, 07 Aug 2014 16:54:39 -0400

I need more information: How many appointments has this soldier missed? Has he/she ever been couseled? what is the reason for missing appointment? What level on Article 15 was it? Was all punishment suspened?

Response by SP6 Eric Rob made Aug 7 at 2014 4:57 PM

SP6 Eric Rob — Thu, 07 Aug 2014 16:57:25 -0400

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2014 7:48 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Aug 2014 19:48:44 -0400

Actually, every missed appt costs the respective medical treatment facility about $200, leaves an appt open that could be taken by someone else and shows a lack of responsibility. Units at Fort Bragg have dropped missed appt rates by 10-15% by counseling, UCMJ, etc. over the past several years likely providing hundreds of thousands of dollars in increased revenue to hire more personnel, update equipment, etc. Just because we get free medical care in the military doesn't mean it is free!

Response by SPC Timothy Walker made Aug 8 at 2014 1:32 PM

SPC Timothy Walker — Fri, 08 Aug 2014 13:32:27 -0400

Our institution being the Military was and will always be built on the foundation of standards and the standards are high so we should hold them as such! However an article 15 UCMJ, Im not sure about that at all!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2015 1:40 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 May 2015 01:40:06 -0400

I recently missed an appointment that was never confirmed by me or was I notified, am I still subject to an article 15? Plus I start clearing in a week and take terminal leave a week after that, will they take that from me? 1st offense and 1st negative thing to happen in 5 years.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2015 7:08 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 May 2015 19:08:13 -0400

SGT Private RallyPoint Member Think about the second and third order effects of you missing that appointment....who else could have gone that needed the same appointment, how did it effect them? What about having people sit around waiting for you, is their time not valued? Also, what does it speak to your character if you are not able to make an appointment, something set in stone and easy to accomplish? These are just some things to think about for missing that appointment.

Now, does it warrant an Article 15....that depends....what is the rest of the story? Have there been other appointments missed? Is this the first time there has been anything like this to be considered for an Article 15? Without knowing the rest of the story, it's hard to say yes or no.

Response by CW2 Carl Swanson made Mar 31 at 2016 4:08 PM

CW2 Carl Swanson — Thu, 31 Mar 2016 16:08:30 -0400

It is your appointed place of duty. If you didn't show up to the flight line or motor pool or formation at the correct time or not at all, how would that be handled? The troops understand what we have to when we are in the military.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2018 2:22 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 17 Jun 2018 02:22:06 -0400

From my experience is that you should not miss one. Yes you can get one BUT when it comes to the lower enlisted they should be a little more lenient especially because they do not do 99% of the work. So when you have an appointment that's two months out you're bound to forget it.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jun 17 at 2018 8:28 AM

SGM Bill Frazer — Sun, 17 Jun 2018 08:28:21 -0400

By missing an appt, you have tied up valuable resources and personnel that could have been used else where for someone who needs it. Flash- you miss VA appts and they can/will cancel your healthcare!