Interesting fact about evading DUI checkpoints. Is it wrong to know this? Not a pro-DUI thread.

2015-02-13T22:31:36-05:00

http://reason.com/blog/2015/02/12/libertarian-lawyer-offers-this-one-trick

This post is not meant to support Drunk Driving. The purpose is to have a discussion about check points. Liberty should be protected and drunk driving will eventually cause the taking of the ultimate liberty, a persons right to life.

Libertarian Lawyer Offers ‘This One Trick’ for Dealing with DUI Checkpoints

Police aren’t happy about it.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2015 10:40 PM

2015-02-13T22:40:19-05:00

I don't think it's wrong. Eventually the drunk will get caught

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Feb 13 at 2015 11:09 PM

2015-02-13T23:09:14-05:00

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member, it is kind of clever and funny, though! However, if someone's really drunk, they'll eventually get caught.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2015 11:18 PM

2015-02-13T23:18:55-05:00

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member Is it wrong to know your Constitutional rights and exercise them?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2015 7:47 AM

2015-02-14T07:47:03-05:00

I've been feeling for years now that we're getting a little insane with the DUI laws - and I really think a lot of it has to do with the fact that a LOT of people make a lot of money from it (police, courts, urine testing businesses, jails, rehabs, etc). I don't want someone with a .25 BAC out driving, but I really don't care if someone has a few beers before driving. I've been seeing articles recently where some people want the legal limit to be ZERO. Fact is, someone with even up to a 0.1 BAC is most likely just fine to drive.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2015 8:39 AM

2015-02-14T08:39:58-05:00

It's a hassle and a pain with either approach. I just remind myself that most cops aren't the bad guys, and try cooperate since I know I'm not drunk.

Response by Sgt Adam Jennings made Feb 14 at 2015 8:41 AM

2015-02-14T08:41:39-05:00

To all of you saying a checkpoint like this is unconstitutional by all means explain to me how asking for a license and registration is an illegal search? Apparently none of you have had someone close to you taken by a drunk driver, I have on two separate occasions. This post disgusts me as well as the ignorant responses about violation of constitutional rights.

Response by Lt Col Fred Marheine, PMP made Feb 14 at 2015 8:53 AM

2015-02-14T08:53:48-05:00

Easy call for me - know your rights / know your responsibilities / know the limits of police authority. BUT, when police are exceeding their authority and violating your rights, arguing with them about it (i.e. resisting) is likely to end badly for you.

The tactic described in this thread is effective based on the type of detention being imposed and the very strict guidelines police are operating within to stay on the legal side of the SCOTUS ruling legalizing checkpoints. Great info-graphic that describes this at following link:
http://www.online-paralegal-programs.com/legal-rights/

You Have the Right to Stay Out of Jail - Online Paralegal Programs

Share this infographic on your site! Source: Online-Paralegal-Programs.com Knowing Your Rights Amendment IV – The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no … Continue reading

Response by MAJ Jim Steven made Feb 14 at 2015 9:07 AM

2015-02-14T09:07:35-05:00

One thing I have always found frustrating about DUI enforcement, it would be less of a problem if our towns had better public transportation. You don't get a DUI in a city, because you don't even drive.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2015 9:43 AM

2015-02-14T09:43:27-05:00

This article was posted on another site and in reading some of the comments I came across one that gave another view of this. It was from a LEO and he stated that if you held up that sign, and only cracked your window to provide your documents it would instantly make him suspicious and he would not let you just drive off without pursuing a search. His post didn't explain the legalities of that but the fact remains that you will just anger the LEO and possibly cause him to escalate the situation.

Personally I don't like the checkpoints. They do violate our rights. But if I come across one I'll comply because some idiots in our society have given them the power to do it. I would vote for a bill that took that power from the police.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2015 10:59 AM

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MAJ Private RallyPoint Member -Nothing wrong with knowing it. Ultimately, I hope that people use their own discretion when enough is enough. I have very little sympathy for drunk drivers, as I have dealt with too many deaths as a result.

But a benefit could be that by evading these DUI checkpoints, maybe it will keep them off of the more traveled roads...so that if they wreck their vehicles, it won't be on a well traveled road.

I think the best way to combating the DUIs is a nonjudgmental approach and availability by leadership to come and get a Soldier when they call, or proper planning on behalf of the Soldier in the form of a designated driver.
v/r,
CPT Butler

Response by CPL Rick Stasny made Feb 14 at 2015 12:01 PM

2015-02-14T12:01:18-05:00

I see a lot of talk here about ones rights, but what about the rights of the victim when that drunk kills or cripples them. How about your right to drive down a road free of impaired drivers.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Feb 14 at 2015 12:27 PM

2015-02-14T12:27:26-05:00

Let's look at the argument from two extremes.

The government is Detaining Citizens, without Probable Cause,

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

They are doing this whether you have committed a crime (Driving under the influence), or not.

As a "societal good" or as a "matter of public safety" this can be justified. The infringement of Rights for most will be "negligible," while the benefit to "all" will be "substantial."

The Constitution is a Social Contract. Plain & Simple. It is a Rulebook for how our society is going to interact.

Operating "Industrial Machinery" (aka Cars) is something that requires Licensing, and is subject to verification, to a point. When on Public Roads, the cops can ask to see our License, Registration, and proof of insurance, if we are stopped during the course of their duties. They can interact with us normally, and that in turn can lead to suspicion or cause.

I don't personally like the concept of checkpoints. For two reasons. First, they violate the intent of the Constitution, and second, they just aren't that effective. Saturation Patrols, just seem to work better, when comparing man hours, and arrests.

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Feb 14 at 2015 1:09 PM

2015-02-14T13:09:27-05:00

I have gone through checkpoints but not on a night I have been drinking. They police have a duty to protect and serve and therefore have a right if they smell alcohol to investigate its probably cause. I have been stopped for DUI and at least in most states I live in the police need a mitigating traffic infraction to arrest you for DUI/DWI. As Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS stated SCOTUS upheld checkpoints. Also if you follow these advice of this attorney you are drawing more attention to yourself.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2015 1:33 PM

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My question would be, what is to stop the LEO from confiscating your registration and drivers license to prevent you from driving any further than the checkpoint? MAJ Private RallyPoint Member I mean if it is in a bag outside the vehicle then it is easy to remove.

As PO3 Private RallyPoint Member stated this type of behavior will just frustrate officers and make them pursue the issue even further. I believe eventually they will get their way.

Not to mention MAJ Private RallyPoint Member Louisiana is a very unusual state to live in for the laws. When I was stationed at Fort Polk I had a minor encounter with the LEO's there where they definitely used some unorthodox tactics to try and frighten me. It did not work as my Mother worked in Warrants in Florida.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2015 1:57 PM

2015-02-14T13:57:09-05:00

I want to also clarify this article does not apply to military installations.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2015 2:14 PM

2015-02-14T14:14:08-05:00

I'm so against anyone being DUI that I rank it up to a crime that should end with those who do it are fed to lions in a zoo same with other crimes.

Plus driving isn't a right, its a privilege. Shoot then I vote the government can make cars that you have to "blow" into or they wont turn on which will cost the consumer more money. If you drive and it detects your drunk it shuts off and locks you in until you are sober.... Either way, I hate those that DUI.

Response by Sgt Adam Jennings made Feb 14 at 2015 8:43 PM

2015-02-14T20:43:13-05:00

Ok, everyone keeps raining that this is violating the fourth amendment, please point out what exactly this violates in the fourth amendment. Everyone keeps arguing that it is unreasonable, but how exactly are they being unreasonable if they're stopping everyone. It's not like they're singling you out. They don't just up and search for stuff, they legally ask for you license, registration, and insurance. The only time it goes further is if you give them reason to.

IV Amendment
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Feb 14 at 2015 9:43 PM

2015-02-14T21:43:21-05:00

I had a point to make, but given that I've had to get involved more as a member-admin on this post I don't want my personal perspective to be considered. Instead I'll stick to commenting on professionalism on some of the sub-threads for now.

Response by Sgt Adam Jennings made Feb 14 at 2015 9:47 PM

2015-02-14T21:47:37-05:00

Apparently I have offended a few on here with comments that I have posted. If that is the case then I do apologize.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2015 8:09 AM

2015-02-15T08:09:45-05:00

I have been in Law Enforcement for my entire life. My dad was an MP and now is a CPT in Ft. Wayne. I am in Law Enforcement and love case law. I could start listing several cases that would argue each side of the arguement. The simple fact in all this is that drving under the the influence of alcohol or drugs is illegal. It doesnt matter how you feel about the subject whether you agree or not. The Supreme Court has not ruled DUI checkpoints unconstitutional. I have read several comments on this and agree with some and strongly disagree with alot. The simple scientific fact is that once you have one drink of alcohol your ability to react has been decreased. Therefore you are a simpley danger to yourself and worse others. Also, one more simple fact MOST DUI checkpoints are initiated in high concentrated areas of past DUI offenses. Making things safer for the public isnt a bad thing.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2015 8:14 AM

2015-02-15T08:14:49-05:00

Sounds legit! Is it ethical? Probably not. But most people get a dui because they submit themselves to a breathalyzer without a warrant.

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Feb 15 at 2015 8:49 AM

2015-02-15T08:49:43-05:00

You know the easiest way to get through a checkpoint don't drink and drive!!!

Response by CPO Jon Campbell made Feb 15 at 2015 9:04 AM

2015-02-15T09:04:09-05:00

Florida law changed since the lawyer made his signs. Following his advice can land you in more trouble. Be careful about getting legal advice from an attorney on the internet that you haven't retained. Better advice would be 1) Don't drink while under the influence 2) Register your vehicle 3) Get a drivers license and insurance 4) don't leave a 3 foot water bong on the front seat. If you have an outstanding warrant turn yourself in. (Those are the most common things police find at checkpoints.)

Response by SGT Charles Vernier made Feb 15 at 2015 12:02 PM

2015-02-15T12:02:08-05:00

Over 20,000 people will be killed as a result of intoxicated drivers this year. I have a surefire tactic for getting through a checkpoint. I don't drink & drive. Period.

Response by SSG Leonard Johnson made Feb 15 at 2015 12:32 PM

2015-02-15T12:32:44-05:00

Giggles...there is nothing wrong with having a Lil knowledge...hehe maybe a few of my buds and me need to get in r POV'S and try this....smoky bear wouldn't know what to think hahahaha

Response by MSG Scott McBride made Feb 15 at 2015 1:59 PM

2015-02-15T13:59:34-05:00

Driving after drinking a few beers, drunk, high, whatever. Most of us have done it, more than once; It is prohibited by local and state laws. If the Feds have to get involved, it will do more harm than good. Example: a blow start mechanism? For ALL vehicles, Really? That is insane and will never happen. It will kill business. I am absolutely against DUI and would never condone that poor choice. I have lost 2 childhood friends because of someone's inability to call a taxi. However, while DUI is illegal, drinking is not. Drink responsibly.

Response by Sgt David G Duchesneau made Feb 15 at 2015 6:11 PM

2015-02-15T18:11:56-05:00

After reading all these post, I would like to give you my 2 cents worth. This is something that I know very well. After being discharged from the Marine Corps back in 1970, I was appointed to the New Hampshire State Police in August of 1971. I was with the State Police until my retirement in 1991. During my tenure with the State, I, like every other new Trooper, started at the bottom and patrolled the roads and highways in NH. I can tell you that I have stopped and arrested thousands of drivers for Driving While under the Influence (DWI) of Alcohol or Drugs and in every instance, I did have Probable Cause to make that stop and arrest. They didn't have cell phones then and there were none of the distractions that made a driver swerve or loose control of their vehicle. Most of these stops were either drugs or alcohol related. I can not tell you how many accidents, including fatal accidents, that I investigated because alcohol or drugs were involved. One of these fatal accidents that I investigated, an entire family, mother, father, grand-mother and their two children, died because of a drunk driver. To those of you that posted that they lost a love one or friend because of an impaired driver, please accept my deepest condolences. The bottom line here is that if you have been drinking, please consider having a designated driver. I know of several incidences where an impaired driver called AAA to have their vehicle towed home instead of driving. You don't have to drive while impaired. You do have choices and the best choice, is just don't drive if you are impaired. The fact is that once you have had that first drink or drug, your judgment does start to get impaired. The more you drink, the worse your judgment gets. It is all common sense.
Like many of you have said, if you drink, just don't drive. As for these so called "Check Points," in NH the Police have to Post where the "Check Points" are going to be. They usually do this by using the media, newspapers and radio announcements. We use to call these "Check Point" Safety Checks. We would stop every vehicle that came through and check to make sure that the driver had his License and Registration and also check the vehicle to make sure that it was properly Inspected and that it was safe, tires and all of the lights. Did we find driver's that were impaired, yes we did and they were arrested for DWI. We also found drivers with suspended licenses, unregistered vehicles, under aged drivers in possession of alcohol, fugitives from justice, wanted people and a host of other violations. And one other tip, if your duty station is on leased property from the State, the State Police do have the authority to patrol on that base. We had Pease AFB in Portsmouth and that base was on State property. Back in the 70's and 80's, I did, with the authority of the Air Police, patrol their roads and I have made several DWI arrest while on Base. Did we infringe on anyone's Constitutional Rights? Well I guess if you were one of the unfortunate ones to be arrested, then you would more than like say "yes" we did. But in all reality, we did not. Our job was to protect and serve every citizen who was driving in our State. One last thing, your Driver's License does not belong to you. It is State property and having a License to Drive is a privilege and just like every other privilege that everyone has, don't abuse it! If you have nothing to hide and you are doing nothing wrong, then what is the big deal of going through a "Check Point?"

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Feb 15 at 2015 7:52 PM

2015-02-15T19:52:28-05:00

I see nothing wrong with it however, do not treat a traffic stop in the same manner because if someone was to treat a traffic stop like a check point, that driver would only find him or herself being forced to exit the vehicle and charged with a slew of charges.

Response by TSgt David Holman made Feb 16 at 2015 1:41 AM

2015-02-16T01:41:45-05:00

With as much preaching that the military does about having a plan, having a wingman, whatever the case, there is no excuse for military members to drink and drive. Period. If you drink and get behind the wheel of a vehicle, you are putting the people around you at more risk than yourself. The fact that someone would post how to "bypass" a checkpoint is extremely bad judgement.

If you are going to drink, have a plan. If that plan falls through, call a cab, call a friend, call a supervisor (we would much rather pick you up at a bar at 0200 than a jail, worse yet tell your family you won't be coming home).

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2015 12:02 PM

2015-02-16T12:02:32-05:00

Being the cynic & former police officer that I am, I will wait with baited breath for the lawsuit filed by someone who's family member was killed by someone who went through a checkpoint, but held up the "call my lawyer" sign & was let pass through.

I can see it now. The blame will be shifted to the officers that allowed the driver to go through the checkpoint w/o "forcing" the driver to submit to an ID check. Just like if an officer allows a "buzzed driver" to continue driving if they pass the standardized tests & then get into a fatality accident a mile down the road. The officer would be held liable to some extent because they had stopped them, but did not prevent them from driving away. (I would ALWAYS make them call a sober driver).

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2015 4:33 PM

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Anything you can do to exercise your own rights against unreasonable search and seizure are fine with me.

Response by MAJ David Vermillion made Feb 16 at 2015 7:11 PM

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We have to checkpoints on our highways to keep them safe for all to use. I think DUI checkpoints are necessary tool to help in this effort, if we eliminate checkpoints then what do we replace it with or do we just do away with them all together. Until somebody comes up with a better idea, we must keep them. I am concerned about our civil rights but taking away checkpoints will only help the violator continue to be a hindrance in our society.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2015 7:20 PM

2015-02-16T19:20:26-05:00

It's never wrong to be more informed. I get the idea of standing up and saying you can't do this to me because of X, Y and Z, but at the same time I do not drink and drive so search away

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 18 at 2015 4:58 AM

2015-02-18T04:58:53-05:00

In Colorado, the law requires that adequate warning be given regarding check points. There are PSAs broadcasted on radio stations regarding check points within a certain part of town. They are also required to post warning signs at the nearest intersection prior to the check point.

Of course the LEOs take advantage of this. There will be cruisers parked a short way off the warned intersection watching especially closely for any infraction that can be used to pull over drivers that "evade " the check point by turning at the intersection

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Feb 18 at 2015 5:44 AM

2015-02-18T05:44:07-05:00

I know each state is different however, the following link provides the guidelines in North Carolina.

http://www.ncsheriffs.org/documents/Motor-Vehicle-Checkpoints.pdf

I believe this topic and its many points of views has provided professional opinions and debate.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Feb 18 at 2015 8:02 AM

2015-02-18T08:02:13-05:00

After reading all the posts on this topic, all I have to say is that drunk driving is illegal and all the BS I see being spewed here does not change that fact.

While I do not personally agree with DUI checkpoints, they have been proven to identify and take drunk drivers off the road. Drunk drivers are a danger and I have no sympathy for them, regardless of the manner in which they were identified and apprehended.

I can't believe the number of people trying to justify drunk driving in this thread. If you drink and drive, you are wrong and you are a criminal, caught or not. DUI laws exist to protect the population from drunk drivers. All one needs to do is look at the stats to see that we have a real problem with DUI in this country.

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Feb 18 at 2015 10:42 AM

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I have question who has gone through a DUI checkpoint?

Response by SFC Collin McMillion made Feb 18 at 2015 6:46 PM

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I have been in several states where random dui check points are not allowed, except on certain known heavy drinking occasions, such as New Year's, 4th of July, etc. Weather exception should be made for these would be, to me, a point for discssion. I can see self rights and law really coming into conflict on this.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2015 12:16 AM

2015-02-27T00:16:18-05:00

Delete

Response by PFC Clyde Hudson made Feb 27 at 2015 1:31 AM

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Having been separated for a DUI I feel that this is a very relevant issue for current service-members at a time when the Army is looking for any excuse to boot soldiers. It was a stupid mistake, but at the same time it was blown out of proportion (considering the charges were dismissed in court).

The fact is though that 0.08 is a silly threshold for DUI (that's only about 2-3 beers) and it is definitely a scheme to make lawyers and other interests an extra buck. This is not to dismiss the impact of sometimes deadly DUI accidents, but any information that helps our comrades stay in the military at a time when we are being stabbed in the back is a worthy endeavor.

That said please don't drink and drive, having to deal with the legal BS is simply not worth it, pay somebody to drive for you. Trying to cut corners only costs you more in the end.