In your opinion, how important is the enrollment and active participation in civilian education while you are serving?

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Jan 2019 18:50:18 -0500

I do not need your Leaders' opinion on your education. I want your opinion.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2019 6:54 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Jan 2019 18:54:27 -0500

I would loved to have gone to college classes; however, as an infantryman, it was nearly impossible. I sometimes envied those who stayed out of the field because they had that advantage. When I discharged, I got my degrees, so all worked out well for me.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2019 6:58 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Jan 2019 18:58:19 -0500

I believe that it depends on one's own personal goals for their career. There are many benefits to enrolling in civilian education such as points for promotion, gained knowledge, credentialing. If one does not plan to make a long term career out of the military, then it behoves them to have some kind education to fall back on. I think education is always a step in the right direction and shows initiative to one's own personal and professional development. Just my 2 cent.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2019 7:04 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Jan 2019 19:04:23 -0500

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member I served from 1968 to 1972 and did not have an opportunity to attend college. I did obtain my degrees after I was discharged. Furthering your education is critical for personal growth and to achieve career goals.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2019 7:11 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Jan 2019 19:11:40 -0500

I believe it is as important as military education courses.

Response by Cpl Mark A. Morris made Jan 1 at 2019 7:18 PM

Cpl Mark A. Morris — Tue, 01 Jan 2019 19:18:12 -0500

My education, college through the Dept. of the Navy and a trade school in ultrasound imaging, show I can complete a required task. That helps when being reviewed for increased responsibility.
Here on RP, a better understanding on the written word helps me get my thoughts across to others. I am always trying to improve my ability to write the English sentence. It is a hard thing to do.
Have a good evening CW2.

Response by LTC Eugene Chu made Jan 1 at 2019 7:32 PM

LTC Eugene Chu — Tue, 01 Jan 2019 19:32:00 -0500

Good reputable civilian education can definitely help with military career or improving reputation as a veteran. One overlooked issue is quality of education along with planning and pursuit. While many service members or veterans have earned reputable degrees, others got duped into enrolling in a bad program. Pasting YouTube clip as warning...

https://youtu.be/LpbKV1ECmgo

Are for-profit universities taking advantage of veterans?

Since 2009, the G.I. Bill has paid up to $21,000 a year of college tuition for those who served in Iraq or Afghanistan. Much of that money, though, goes to f...

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jan 1 at 2019 7:36 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Tue, 01 Jan 2019 19:36:17 -0500

"Evolve or Die"

As we progress in rank, we are exposed to additional spheres of influence. The difference between a Private and a Lieutenant is essentially a college degree. They are of comparable age of general life experience. The difference between a MSgt and a LtCol however can be especially pronounced assuming adequate attempts aren't made to stay comparative.

However, as both sides progress in rank, education becomes extremely important. Not just primary education (college) but also Professional Military Education (PME). Unless you are participating in both, the "spread" between officers and enlisted just becomes too wide, too quickly. It becomes a communication barrier.

There was an article published in the Marine Corps times circa 2000 about SNCOs inability to write. The gist was that we had invested a dozen years into a SSgt/GySgt+ but never taken the time to get them beyond 12th grade English into the College 101 or Technical writing level (which all officers have a baseline in). The article wasn't designed to disparage enlisted but highlight a systemic flaw.

Everyone is eventually promoted into a desk. Everyone. Unfortunately, in the USMC we had neglected to provide an essential tool to the SNCO toolbox which was resulting in the above problem. The way to fix that is to incentivize college education (which we do for promotion to Cpl & Sgt). However, Operations trumps Administration in most cases so so we make excuses about "no time for that."

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2019 7:48 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Jan 2019 19:48:40 -0500

In my MOS it has proven beneficial but only do to report writing. I think this whole "go to college or dont get promoted" trend needs to die. If your degree doesnt apply to your job then it's useless to your current duty position. However, I take full advantage of TA and other educational resources as everyone should. My beef is with the E7 board using civilian education as a way to stop people's progression.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2019 8:57 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Jan 2019 20:57:35 -0500

This is not my leadership platitudes, this is my personal opinion.
1. If you plan to make the Army a career, and you notice that your peers with college end up higher on the promotion list than you, it's an easy choice to make: get college done somehow. Same thing with Os and WOs, that extra degree makes the difference at the boards.
2. If you do't plan to make the Army a career, the sooner you can finish a degree, the better off you'll be in the civilian job market, regardless of job. When it comes down to two equally qualified candidates and the only difference is one has college done, guess who gets the job offer?
3. Regardless of what your career plan is, more civilian education better prepares you for anything you plan to do. You write better, you think better, you better understand more facets of the given situation, you state your positions better.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2019 9:43 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Jan 2019 21:43:27 -0500

Super-duper-amazing-level important. One day, you're going to get out. On that day, you'll want to have a marketable civilian education credential to get you an interview for a job that pays well and is located somewhere you wouldn't mind living. I'm not saying that college is particularly useful for actually doing that job. I'm just saying that to get the interview, you want to have that degree.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2019 9:54 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Jan 2019 21:54:18 -0500

I've found that it varies by MOS. Some MOS's require a degree to be competitive for promotion and others don't. As for their career after the Army, that's a personal choice.

Response by MAJ Douglas Dopp made Jan 1 at 2019 10:44 PM

MAJ Douglas Dopp — Tue, 01 Jan 2019 22:44:17 -0500

I did it 4 degrees final was Masters. Active duty civilian education opens your prospective, strengthens ability to carry on verbal discussion of issues, improves value in civilian job searches, plus more. Oh yes, I am retired HR exec who hired from military

Response by CPL James S. made Jan 1 at 2019 11:00 PM

CPL James S. — Tue, 01 Jan 2019 23:00:01 -0500

When I served as a Firefighter it was an absolute necessity!
The science is relatively static in some areas, or at least fairly well known, but the field always changed and moved forward with new information ranging from forensic or materials science to medicine to HAZ-MAT.
When I first entered the field I was hesitant about continuing education, but that changed as I was exposed to not only the job and its incredible demands, but also as I considered the future and my own role leading others. I should have been a bit more thoughtful in my education, however, as I was so focused on being a Firefighter that I specialised my education to a field that made the specialised education essentially worthless elsewhere.

Response by SSG Joseph Bracha made Jan 2 at 2019 12:47 AM

SSG Joseph Bracha — Wed, 02 Jan 2019 00:47:46 -0500

I’ve sat with multiple Air Force and Navy, Active Servicemen during my degree at CTU. Only one active duty Army, and he was in school only because they had nothing else for him to do and he was about to ETS. I would argue there should be more Army SM there, but Air Force and Navy SMs where competing degrees that will help them in there military job performance. I think it would be silly to send an Infantry PFC to school to get their Electrical Engineering degree, for example. All you did was ensure that SM does not re-enlist. When that degree is done, look at pay scale, why would they stay on active duty beyond their enlistment. While it would be great for SM to have that advantage when they exit service, retention would become a nightmare, just my thoughts.

Response by MAJ Fred Peterman made Jan 2 at 2019 1:14 AM

MAJ Fred Peterman — Wed, 02 Jan 2019 01:14:58 -0500

Hard tomgo to school while working off shift, weekends, etc. My units were "mission oriented". Went to school after off active duty. Then joined reserves and re-enlisted , then got commissioned in Nurse Corp.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2019 1:36 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Jan 2019 01:36:32 -0500

I think it’s a matter of “Wanting” it. When I joined the Army in 2015 I had to wait my 2 years to use TA. So I started as a SPC back in 2017. Currently I have 55 credits courtesy of the Army and me taking classes. Back to the real question! It all falls under the service member wanting a degree (of any type). My unit gained some new faces and I sat down with both of them and just asked what the common goals were. SM 1/2, said they wanted to complete there contract and get out. I told them that was a good goal but have they thought about just taking some classes? It doesn’t have to be towards a degree to just have the credits for when they get out and think of using there GI bill for college. As SFC Private RallyPoint Member has stated it does boil down to different MOS’s in aviation where Doing 24 hours ops, so down time comes with sacrifice( IE ; going out with friends, sleep ect). It’s NOT impossible, just a matter of will! Great question sir.

Response by SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA made Jan 2 at 2019 5:47 AM

SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA — Wed, 02 Jan 2019 05:47:27 -0500

I joined with a B.A.
But I had a difficult time getting it recognized, due to errors at MEPS (not errors on my part).
I was interested in getting free college while I was in, but I don't see how anyone finds time for it. Perhaps single guys would have time. Typically, I'd have a few minutes of family time before I needed to get some sleep for the next day. No time for classes at all.
Although I did have time when I was in OT ( Out of Training for the 18X course, a transition unit I was in for over a year). When I wasn't on an extended detail, I had spare time during the day. I used it for military education correspondence courses to get promotion points. I had already maxed out civilian education, so I felt this would be more useful. Obviously, I never got promoted anyway. I'm not sure I'd been in long enough for TAP at the time.
Anyway, I think folks should grab any free education opportunities they can.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jan 2 at 2019 6:25 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Wed, 02 Jan 2019 06:25:35 -0500

When one retires it is vital to have a trainjngvcertificate or college degree to enhance your resume when seeking out that second career. Thank you for your service.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2019 8:24 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Jan 2019 08:24:26 -0500

I think the importance of civilian education truly lies in your self-motivation. If you are happy where you are career-wise then pursuing civilian education is a moot point. On the flip side, if you wish to generate opportunities for yourself in the military and post-military, civilian education can only help. This is especially true if you complete a master's degree.

On a side note, I find it interesting that civilian education can only get you so far if you are enlisted with moderate to substantial time in service. I dislike the fact that commissioning opportunities are greatly diminished and how advancement is only limited to enlisted or warrant ranks for those who possess a feeder MOS. True talent management would offer opportunities for qualified individuals to make a greater impact within their respective organization, not railroad them into a specific caste.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2019 11:29 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Jan 2019 11:29:39 -0500

I used to think every enlisted SM should enroll in college, because to me, the benefits of having college was obvious with promotions while you are in and to help you in the civilian world when/if you got out. As most of it for us is provided via TA and GI Bills, I also thought, why would anyone turn down such a benefit? However, after getting my bachelors & masters, and also working with different types of units over the years, I have come to realize that college is not necessarily for everyone in the enlisted ranks. Don't get me wrong, I still think you should try, because at the very least it makes you more competitive, but I no longer see it as a "be all end all" if its really not something you want to invest your time in. I have worked with great Soldiers that both have degrees, and those that don't have them. I have also worked with horrible Soldiers in both categories as well. I will say this, although many warrant officer jobs don't require degrees, it seems (as I am sure you are aware) that the processes for us are changing to favor us having advanced degrees to get to higher grades. Several warrant MOS's require associates degrees now, and I wouldn't be surprised in the next few years that they make it mandatory for us to have an undergrad to get promoted to CW3 or CW4.

Response by SFC Regina Boyd made Jan 2 at 2019 1:51 PM

SFC Regina Boyd — Wed, 02 Jan 2019 13:51:07 -0500

Do it. If you can, do it. I don't know what the military does now, but when I was in, there was Tuition Assistance (if you were an NCO, the Army paid 90% tuition and you paid 10% tuition). I kick myself for not finishing my bachelor's degree. You will thank yourself when you're no longer in the military.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2019 2:55 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Jan 2019 14:55:24 -0500

Depending on your goals and personal experience I believe it to be incredibly important. Civilian education can improve your ability both in and out of uniform. It gives you the opportunity to expand you sphere of influence while increasing the value you add to your organization. From a personal experience once I took my civilian education serious it changed my entire career trajectory. Great thought provoking question!

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jan 2 at 2019 3:26 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Wed, 02 Jan 2019 15:26:55 -0500

That's nice idea, but some units OPTEMPO is so high that there is little to no time for civilian education. After all did they join to serve or receive a civilian education? That is the major reason the GI Bill and its follow on plans were conceived.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2019 1:26 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 06 Jan 2019 01:26:13 -0500

While enlisted zero impact, other than promotion determinations. After enlistment, everything.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2019 2:00 AM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 06 Jan 2019 02:00:47 -0500

It’s relative to the individuals future plans and available training. Some MOS’s transfer. Some don’t do so well without other credentials.

Plan on making Sergeant Major? A degree makes you competitive.

Plan on making Major? Need a Masters.

It’s alk relative. Probably not the answer you wanted but so far that is the impression I have gotten from the climate in the Army through QnA and general conversations with officers.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2019 2:02 AM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 06 Jan 2019 02:02:00 -0500

Short answer. Not always needed but in never hurts.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2019 4:54 PM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 26 Jan 2019 16:54:00 -0500

I can only speak about Air Force officers education from personal experience. After commissioning I got my masters as soon as possible because it helped on promotions above captain. I was fortunate as a Missile Security Officer as I was allowed to check my weapon, tell our dispatchers my location and attend classes at night even when I was on-duty.

Before I retired I understand the Air Force started not showing graduate degrees on promotion rip's because not everyone were fortunate enough to attend graduate school due to deployments, flying schedules etc.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 17 at 2019 6:14 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 17 Feb 2019 18:14:59 -0500

It should be encouraged and supported to the maximum extent possible. However, unless it has a real impact on an enlisted member's job performance (and if it begins "it could be argued..." it's not a real impact), it shouldn't be seen as mandatory.

For officers, it's another way to measure qualification in officers who are often doing dissimilar jobs.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2019 10:21 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Feb 2019 10:21:45 -0500

Incredibly important. While difficult for CMFs 11, 19, 13 due to constant field training (especially the poor soldiers assigned to mechanized units) on top of showing the obvious, it has the benefit of teaching and proving time management skills. Family, work, hobby, and school all need to be juggled properly. I tell people to do 1 class at a time until they get a hang of it, or when deployed to up the course load. Oddly enough, there is more time while deployed than while in garrison.
It took me a while to realize I should have started college earlier, but now I'm in grad school, while still active duty. It takes the drive to want it to get it.

That being said, the type of program has a lot to do with it. Some people wants their degree in particle physics, not so easy while active duty, plus not much military schooling or experience will translate to credit. Nowadays, it is just the fact that you have a Bachelor's, not what its in. Don't go and study early French literature, when your JST is driving you towards a degree in international poly sci. Capitalize on what the service has taught you and speed things up.