If you are given an illegal order, e.g. to execute civilians, what should your course of action be? Immediate and Post?

2018-07-12T16:44:50-04:00

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Jul 12 at 2018 4:47 PM

2018-07-12T16:47:27-04:00

I would flat out refuse, this isn't Nazi Germany or Communist China or Russia.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2018 4:56 PM

2018-07-12T16:56:20-04:00

Refuse. Report to your chain of command.

Response by Sgt Wayne Wood made Jul 12 at 2018 5:08 PM

2018-07-12T17:08:52-04:00

Refuse. Period.

Response by SGT Tony Clifford made Jul 12 at 2018 6:13 PM

2018-07-12T18:13:05-04:00

Refuse and report it.

Response by LT Brad McInnis made Jul 12 at 2018 6:41 PM

2018-07-12T18:41:00-04:00

Refuse, report.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2018 6:55 PM

2018-07-12T18:55:25-04:00

Why the question? Have you been given an order that you think is illegal?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2018 8:10 PM

2018-07-12T20:10:08-04:00

Have the courage to stand up and say no, I have

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made Jul 12 at 2018 8:47 PM

2018-07-12T20:47:23-04:00

Theoretical or really 'No Shit' happened? I ask because of both medieval and modern usage of war terms:

"No Mercy" means don't kill wounded but not necessarily that you will provide medical attention.

"No Quarter" means KILL all who resist (throw down your arms and your surrender will be taken) but also can mean a refusal to enter into an agreement (in other words - unconditional surrender only) with the enemy. Heralds used to relay which was intended by the victors, nowadays media broadcasts (such as 'Death to all Infidels') are used.
The most recent large "No Quarter" episode by US Forces was the 1991 Gulf War's "Highway of Death", when the Iraqi Army in Kuwaiti was told to hold in place and surrender, but attempted to flee.

"Mercy" meant that you would attempt to treat the enemy's wounds but also that if the wounds were un-treatable you would give them a quick death rather than let them suffer (sometimes for days) needlessly.

"Quarter" meant that you would allow surrender or that you would let the enemy forces flee the battlefield.

Also be aware of - The Principle of Distinction between Civilians and Combatants. The parties to the conflict must at all times distinguish between civilians and combatants. Attacks may only be directed against combatants. Civilians are protected against attack unless and for such time as they take a direct part in hostilities or in support (i.e. resupply, manufacturing and concealment efforts to name a few) of enemy combatants.

Hope this helps BUT I was wondering - Who skipped giving (or slept thru) their Geneva Convention classes?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2018 9:44 PM

2018-07-12T21:44:11-04:00

all SM's are sworn to obey all LAWFUL orders and have an affirmative duty to DISOBEY all UNLAWFUL orders.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jul 12 at 2018 10:56 PM

2018-07-12T22:56:39-04:00

What happened to the Law of Land warfare reviews we got every yr?. 1. Respectively decline. 2. Remind all in hearing range that it is an illegal order and they can/will face UCMJ. 3. As soon as possible contact higher and JAG.

Response by LTJG Richard Bruce made Jul 13 at 2018 1:12 AM

2018-07-13T01:12:05-04:00

Need to explain what you mean by executing civilians. Orders are not illegal until judged so after the fact. There are orders that are issued beyond one's authority. A E-2 changing a tire cannot order a O-6 to jump in a lake. But, that same E-2 standing fire watch can forcibly pull the same O-6 out of a burning structure. There are orders that at the time may seem unlawful due ignorance of the situation, but are legal. A person with proper authority orders a junior, on his first hour of a new job, to shoot a "civilian" who appears to be minding his own business not harming anyone. But unknown to the new person, this "civilian" is seconds away from detonating an explosive placed in a full day care center.

Validity of orders gets less clear the further away one is from the issuer. Good leaders will communicate the context of difficult orders, and will accept sensible questions from junior serviceman. A good movie to watch to study the effects of, and how to react to unlawful orders is "Paths to Glory" staring Kirk Douglas.

A classic real life case I studied in a law class at the USCG Academy involves lifeboat survival. An U-boat sank a cargo ship with mixed military and civilian crew. One lifeboat became over loaded with survivors. A day or two past, lifeboat became unstable with the load. There was not enough food and water for everyone. One survivor (civilian) was severely injured requiring more supplies than the others. Senior officer (military) in the boat ordered the injured person thrown off the boat. Under heavy protest the senior person pushed the injured man off the boat. The next day the survivors were rescued. Senior person charged with murder. General Court convened and found the accused not-guilty. The order to kill the injured man deem lawful to ensure survival of the remaining crewmen.

Response by SSgt Ray Stone made Jul 13 at 2018 7:25 AM

2018-07-13T07:25:41-04:00

refuse

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 13 at 2018 8:50 AM

2018-07-13T08:50:25-04:00

First: Don't do it. Obviously.
Second: Report it as high as you can go.
Last: Watch your back.

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Jul 13 at 2018 8:58 AM

2018-07-13T08:58:27-04:00

Let's hope it doesn't come to that. When you say execute civilians I am assuming you mean people that are clearly civilians, they are unarmed, perhaps even in custody vs. people that may be in civilian attire with weapons shooting at you/others and you are using the word execute verses kill/engage.

If you have a command structure that would order you to shoot unarmed, captive, non threatening civilians then you likely have some really big command issues that are well beyond your pay grade. I certainly wouldn't shoot an unarmed, non threatening civilian based upon anyone's "order".

Response by Sgt John Steinmeier made Jul 13 at 2018 9:24 AM

2018-07-13T09:24:03-04:00

Just don't lead them so much...

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Jul 13 at 2018 9:28 AM

2018-07-13T09:28:00-04:00

Did you even think about this question? What do you think you should do?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 14 at 2018 3:02 AM

2018-07-14T03:02:16-04:00

I hope this is for a research paper or something.

Response by TSgt David Holman made Nov 9 at 2018 7:57 AM

2018-11-09T07:57:47-05:00

Refuse, and immediately notify the next highest level of command.