If the Army recruited strictly off of Patriotism alone, how big of an Army do you think we would really have?

2017-01-02T11:47:27-05:00

I had a VERY interesting conversation and it sparked some controversy but can we be real and honest...

If we were to survey the military and put out those that didn't join strictly off of their patriotism and Only joined for the benefits how big of an Army do u think we would REALLY have?

If recruiters didn't offer so many benefits , incentives etc, where would the Army be today?

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Jan 2 at 2017 11:51 AM

2017-01-02T11:51:07-05:00

The only way to tell is when we really have a 4% unemployment rate, not the figment of imagination we have today. My patriotism grew over the years of my career, I joined when I was 18 because there was no jobs available for some with no work experience and things got hungry out there. Strange no one has responded so far except me.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Jan 2 at 2017 11:53 AM

2017-01-02T11:53:34-05:00

Inasmuch as "patriotism" is a four-letter word in schools and colleges these days, I doubt you would find any/many to recruit. However, when you fight for your nation, you are likely to return a patriot even if you weren't before you enlisted.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Jan 2 at 2017 12:05 PM

2017-01-02T12:05:00-05:00

ask that question in the recruiters office or of a SM having just completed basic, vice a SM like your self that is no on a second, 3rd, or more enlistment and you will get a very different response

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2017 12:10 PM

2017-01-02T12:10:21-05:00

We would certainly have a much smaller Army. MUCH smaller Army.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2017 12:11 PM

2017-01-02T12:11:33-05:00

Patriotism is infectious. Imagine a country who saw their military bleed patriotism from the top down including it's civilian leaders.

Today, we see personnel who sit out during the flag raising/national anthem, disrespect toward the uniform, disrespect toward their leaders and disrespect for those that served before them.

Disclosure: this isn't the military as a whole, but the few individuals who have been stupid enough to make their disrespect public, giving national optics.

Response by SN Greg Wright made Jan 2 at 2017 12:28 PM

2017-01-02T12:28:45-05:00

I joined for a couple of reasons. First and foremost, I'm 3rd-gen Navy. Grandpa served in WW2, dad in Vietnam. Secondly, my family at the time sucked and I couldn't wait to get away from them, and joining was an easy way out. So I didn't join strictly for patriotism either, but the Navy definitely grew it within me.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2017 2:01 PM

2017-01-02T14:01:41-05:00

I have found that most initial recruits have a high degree of patriotism, and the benefits are just icing on the cake. However, after about six years or so, service members begin transitioning to being professionals. While patriotism is still a motivating factor, the benefits start coming more to the fore front. By twelve years, it is all about reaching that twenty year mark or getting out and using your skills to get a decent civilian job.

So I don't think it would hurt the military in terms of recruits, but it would definitely hurt the military at the top end because if it wasn't for the retirement perks, only those who piss red, white, and blue would stay in for twenty or thirty years.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Jan 2 at 2017 2:06 PM

2017-01-02T14:06:03-05:00

Interesting thread. I was ENL during 'Nam and would have to say there were few patriots, mostly draftees, and a goodly number of dodgers. I never considered the "lead by terror" types patriots. And, we had a bunch of them. I wouldn't be so confining using the term patriotism. I'm looking at it more like an individual, given all their options, chooses the MIL route. The options ebb and flow given the economy, public mood, whatever. So although patriotism is one factor, I'd surmise it isn't the overarching factor for most. For some it is. Since we're dealing with a feeling/perception, no survey would be accurate. About as close as we can get is the early '60s definition of ponography. I can't define it, but I know it when I see it. We all have a different take on an ideal and patriotism is one of them. Bottom line, the answer is smaller in a good economy with lots of options, greater when most everything else sucks. After all, patriotism is a feeling, not a logic.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Jan 2 at 2017 3:33 PM

2017-01-02T15:33:31-05:00

It would probably be so miniscual, they would be laughed off the planet.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2017 4:11 PM

2017-01-02T16:11:12-05:00

How do you measure patriotism in someone that doesn’t or hasn’t served? Do they stand for the national anthem? Yes. Do they hold their hand over their heart during the pledge of allegiance? Sure. Are they proud to live a democratic republic? Ok.

Have they deployed, gotten attacked, shot at people, or buried friends? I submit that freedom and liberty have a different taste for those that have defended it, and patriotism means something much deeper when you’re standing beneath the colors and saluting during reveille and retreat. True patriotism requires a sacrifice, and standing in the recruiter’s office is only the beginning in proving it.

Response by CPL Anthony Slaughter made Jan 2 at 2017 4:21 PM

2017-01-02T16:21:03-05:00

Based on what I saw during my two years as a Recruiter, I would have to guess that the Army would be very small.

Response by SFC David Ocasio made Jan 2 at 2017 5:46 PM

2017-01-02T17:46:11-05:00

A very small one. Not with this,entitlement generation . They think they are owed. Guess what no one owes you crap. Serve your nation get in the trenches and then we can talk.

Response by SFC Joseph Weber made Jan 3 at 2017 12:33 AM

2017-01-03T00:33:20-05:00

When I was a recruiter I believe there was more Service to Country recruits than those looking for benefits. Since recruiting works on the edge of mission failure all the time losing the recruits who were only in it for themselves would undoubtedly be very bad. Retention would be probably be ok. It seemed like anyone you asked who was on their second or third enlistment would basically give patriotism or service to country as the treason they joined.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 3 at 2017 2:22 AM

2017-01-03T02:22:39-05:00

I think it would definitely be a different force. Even if a person is patriotic and wants to join there are circumstances that they leave the military to pursue civilian employment such as health issues or the need to make more money to support their family. If you take away benefits such as BAH or bonuses or the retirement patriotism will only go so far to keep someone in the military. They will need to seek employment elsewhere to support their family or risk losing it.

Response by PO3 John Wagner made Jan 3 at 2017 5:13 AM

2017-01-03T05:13:53-05:00

The army would have to consider that true patriotism is not an inborn quality.
It too must be developed by an individual.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Jan 3 at 2017 8:51 AM

2017-01-03T08:51:56-05:00

Well I honestly don't know, but I will say that if the Army has to dangle benefits in front of potential recruits in order to get them to sign, that's a pretty sad day indeed. Literally the only benefit I had ever known about was the GI Bill. Pretty much everyone knows about that whether or not you step into a recruiters office.

But every Marine I know signed up because they wanted to be a Marine.

But if benefits really sway as many people as you seem to suggest, I'd put the Army at a 50/50 split. Everyone loves benefits, but that doesn't change the fact that there are those who truly love this Country and want to give back in some way.

Response by SFC J Fullerton made Jan 3 at 2017 11:10 AM

2017-01-03T11:10:37-05:00

Honestly, I am not sure it would make a difference. From my experience, people weren't lining up to join for college money or incentives any more than for patriotism. Incentives are used to steer people toward certain critical MOS's, it had little bearing on the decision to enlist in the first place.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2017 4:02 PM

2017-01-06T16:02:31-05:00

when I signed up it was not for the benefits, but for the honor of serving. I wanted to go to fight in Desert Storm Desert Shield. however, by the time I was done with basic, and AIT that was over and I was assigned stateside. I am still proud of my time in.

I wish that others would join for the honor as well and not for the benefits. They might be disappointed with the benefits that they get.