If the A-10 Warthogs are so useless to the USAF inventory, why are they being sent to Israel as an immediate action airplane?

2023-10-13T10:18:55-04:00

Are they being sent to Israel to assist or as a means of removing them from the USAF inventory?

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Oct 13 at 2023 10:57 AM

2023-10-13T10:57:17-04:00

They are not sexy thus they must be scrapped.

Response by COL Randall C. made Oct 13 at 2023 1:18 PM

2023-10-13T13:18:00-04:00

The A-10s aren't "useless" to the USAF inventory - they are being replaced primarily because they are viewed as a single-role airframe (CAS) and would likely not survive if facing an adversary with modern air defense capabilities and if we didn't have at least a favorable air situation at the time of their employment.

Yes, we (the Army) love them. They became the darlings of the Gulf War, racking up thousands of vehicle kills to include about 1/3 of all tank kills during the conflict. Anyone that has been on the ground when they come in can attest to how close they can deliver accurate CAS to engaged forces - they are basically a slow-flying ordnance factory that we view as being able to chew up whatever is on the ground with the 30mm cannon or by delivering from one of the 11 hard-points carrying the heavy duty stuff if the 30mm doesn't do the job.

On the other side of the argument is that they ARE great - as long as there is no serious threat to them. They are durable, but unlike the popular myth we ground-pounders have about them, they are not invincible. We lost four of them during the Gulf war to 1980s era air defense systems and MANPADS and some others (3?) were taken out of operation because they were too damaged to be airworthy. Even when they were first put into operations (~45 years ago), planners expected to lose every A-10 in the inventory (>700) within a few weeks of combat with the Soviets if they invaded.

However, getting back to the specific question you posed about "why are they being sent to Israel as an immediate action airplane?". It still remains the pre-eminent precision CAS platform we have in our inventory ... as long as there isn't a serious anti-aircraft threat. The anti-aircraft capabilities that are present in Gaza have been very limited so far based on what's been used against the Israeli aircraft. To date the only threat has come from old SA-7s MANPADS although they claim to have more advanced MANPADS such as the SA-18 and SA-24 (again, no evidence of that and only SA-7s have been used against Israeli F-16s).

Note - this isn't new to the region as a squadron of A-10s were deployed earlier this year* at AFCENT's request due to increased tensions from Iranian-backed forces in Syria.
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* https://www.airandspaceforces.com/a-10s-centcom-bolster-air-force-presence/

A-10s Headed to CENTCOM To Bolster Air Force Presence

As the Air Force's focus shifts to the Pacific and Europe, aging A-10s will deploy to the Middle East to support CENTCOM.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Oct 13 at 2023 8:44 PM

2023-10-13T20:44:56-04:00

USAF has always disliked them because close air is not as bold as dog-fighting. We in the Army absolutely love them ask any airborne grunt when facing mech/armor.

Response by SGT Juan Robledo made Oct 30 at 2023 3:38 PM

2023-10-30T15:38:41-04:00

Because they're proven to be one heck of an Air Craft, and will Kick Ass

Response by Col Dan Ketter made Oct 30 at 2023 10:11 PM

2023-10-30T22:11:28-04:00

Its unfortunate that AF brass always looked down their noses at the A10. And if you ask any grunt from the marines or Army they have always LOVED

Response by SFC William Linnell made Nov 5 at 2023 6:52 AM

2023-11-05T06:52:46-05:00

I've advocated for the A-10 for decades for the Army to be added to their inventory. Watching them maneuver on targets in Graf. Then in Desert Storm and again in Afghanistan. I professionally know how effective they are when ground units are in a TIC. I have listened to the chatter of the ground commander talking with the A10 pilot. The pilot with eyes on the enemy but gets no permission to engage the enemy for the JTAG who is sitting at Bagram. Too many times this has happened over there. Talk about getting a case of the glow butt.
There needs to be a JTAG trained Soldiers in the Army units with that unit giving the A10 pilots permission not some AF officer miles away from the TIC in their comfortable office. So the Army needs the A10 in its inventory. And to piggy back off that, the Army needs to have operation control of cargo planes.

Response by PO3 Dale Olson made Nov 5 at 2023 3:02 PM

2023-11-05T15:02:24-05:00

The same thinking that said the F4 Phantom didn't need guns or why did they use WW2 planes in Veitham.

Response by PO3 Michelle Tremblay made Nov 12 at 2023 9:49 AM

2023-11-12T09:49:52-05:00

Phoenix just had one in a flyover at Diamondbacks game. They start at the top of my street, so cool to witness

Response by PO3 Dale Olson made Nov 12 at 2023 5:31 PM

2023-11-12T17:31:41-05:00

Just had a brain fart.... How about we rehab some A-10's or build an updated version and let the F-22 or F-35,file cover.
How to pay for them? Cut off foreign aid to few countries.

Response by SSG Douglas Shaffer made Nov 19 at 2023 11:50 PM

2023-11-19T23:50:39-05:00

I agree with Col. Cudworth.
The A-10 was almost like a fire and forget weapon but for the Air Force, it was an aircraft of the "Cold War" the armor was mostly to protect the piolet and the engines from small arms fire. Its main job was to bust up tanks coming through the Fulda Gap. Soviet doctrine for Motorized Rifle Recements was to barrel down the road in columns, the A-10 was to take advantage of this by coming over low and slow and destroy as many as the can until empty get back reload ad fuel and go back for some more until they can't. The greatest threat to all aircraft at the time was the ZSU 23-4 (Shilka) and the hope was to catch them in column along with 9K33 Osa (Gecko), Mobile Surface to Air Missile Launcher System, which at least two Geckos would be working in the same area around a ZSU 23-4 working as a unit. This is the reasoning for the A-10 to bust tanks. As an Infantryman during the time if we were to see a ZSU 23-4, it was a mission changer for us, for now it was our main job to destroy it at all costs. Seeing a 9K33 alerted us to the fact a 23-4 was in the area, your job now find it!
The bean counters want to have aircrafts that can fit dual rolls and the A-10 does one thing and one thing only really, really well Close Air Support period! Drop the A-10 by more dual roll F16s that the Air Force swears will have some set aside for CAS missions. Yeah, I bet.
The Air Force has tried to force retire the aircraft by starving its logistics system of replacement parts and higher deployment rate for a rapid decline of the aircraft's system faster. However, the Air Force was caught with their hand in the cookie jar in 2022 for trying this, and now have their "Prunes along with their short and curli's caught in a beartrap!" The A-10is is now going to receiving new wing from Boeing, and will be getting new electronics, sensors and weapons systems to push them into the 2030's. I guess someone told them make it happen or find work elsewhere.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 14 at 2023 9:01 AM

2023-12-14T09:01:27-05:00

The A-10 is arguably the best close air support platform ever designed. However, its time is coming to an end like all other great warbirds. The A-10 is great for an austere low threat environment like we saw in Afghanistan and Iraq for the past 20 years. They would be great in Africa and South America as well. Against modern air defense systems that a near peer adversary would have, it would have a low survivability rate. The decision of sending to the Middle East again was based on availability not necessarily airframe. A F-16 unit could have easily gotten the call if they were in the bucket.
It is also seen as a single mission aircraft in a time when the Air Force can no longer afford to have single mission aircraft. Can the F-35 do the close air support role? Yes, it can but it doesn't do it as well as the A-10. Can the A-10 do the air-to-air role and other missions of the F-35? Unfortunately, the answer is no. While the troops on the ground love the capabilities the A-10 provides the truth is in Iraq and Afghanistan several other platforms provided close air support effectively enough to show that the A-10 could be replaced. I supported A-10s for 17 years on 5 deployments to Afghanistan and Iraq and love the plane and its missions. Unfortunately, much like the F-4, P-51 and other greats its time has come to an end.

Response by COL Carl Jensen made Dec 14 at 2023 10:29 AM

2023-12-14T10:29:51-05:00

Knowing Israel, their A-10s will be super up graded along with advanced tech. Coming soon the Israeli Super A-10.

Response by Sgt Michael Clifford made Dec 14 at 2023 7:58 PM

2023-12-14T19:58:58-05:00

Do you think that they might be of some use in Ukraine? If nothing else it could demonstrate their survivability against a more modern anti air potential. Best case the Ukrainian pilots would use the to effectivily kill more Russians who are in their country ILLEGALLY.

Response by CA Randall Hughes made Dec 16 at 2023 8:32 PM

2023-12-16T20:32:43-05:00

Are they for Immediate use in the Gaza Strip,? Dosesnt seem to be a of Air Defense by Hamas. If The Israelis are Already Trained , i guess it will work out. Ha

Response by SSG Robert Velasco made Dec 16 at 2023 11:05 PM

2023-12-16T23:05:45-05:00

The A-10 is by far one of the most productive means of close air support for troops on the ground and I feel the brass want to spend funds like drunkards so they chose the warthog

Response by AN Ron Wright made Dec 17 at 2023 5:15 PM

2023-12-17T17:15:25-05:00

they are fantastic planes wish i had the opportunity to work on them

Response by SSgt Stuart Schultz made Dec 21 at 2023 11:01 AM

2023-12-21T11:01:33-05:00

I can spend all day discussing the advantages the A-10 has over the F-35 or F-22. One of the A-10's greatest assets is seldom discussed, its ability to keep flying while severely damaged and its ability to be repaired quickly. All the flight controls are easily repaired and can be swapped from the left to right side of the plane, including the main gears and engines. Then and all the backup systems to keep it flying, including two engines compared to one. Not only can the A-10 fly with severe damage, it has a fast turnaround to get back in the fight. The A-10 saves taxpayers money while doing the job it was designed to do, close air support within an area of air superiority. Bureaucrats have an issue with A-10's, its always been that way.

Response by Cpl Lester Lachappelle made Jan 15 at 2024 1:20 PM

2024-01-15T13:20:21-05:00

Useless lol personal experience in Desert Shield/Storm calling air strikes on enemy vehicles and equipment I’d always prefer the A10 to cut me a path. Yes they are slow compared to other jets, but that beast puts fear in men’s hearts. Hell it put fear into my heart just hoping they didn’t start strafing to soon. Hell the sound of that 30 mm gun had many Iraqis turning and trying to run away

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 18 at 2024 11:35 AM

2024-01-18T11:35:57-05:00

Having seen them in action, the word “worthless” will NEVER come out of my mouth.

Response by SSgt William Blanshan made Jan 28 at 2024 2:48 PM

2024-01-28T14:48:02-05:00

The only person I've heard say that they're useless was that brain dead boob "Maverick", John McCain. He tried to get them cancelled, for some reason. The A-10 is an incredible weapon system and is incredibly usefull.

Response by SGT Robert Martin made Feb 4 at 2024 4:12 PM

2024-02-04T16:12:12-05:00

The a10s CAS isn't helpful to the AF, but as a soldier that has had the luck of being supported by by them on several occasions. They are not just effective they are intimidating as hell. Haji hates helicopters but they truly fear the A10. On one occasion as soon as the A10s showed up haji broke contact. The A10 didn't fire a single round never even came in low. They literally had just Gotten in the area circled overhead two maybe three times.

Response by COL Eric Rojo made Feb 4 at 2024 5:49 PM

2024-02-04T17:49:34-05:00

the USAF (or the mistake of '47 as I call it) doen't care about CAS and anything that happens bellow 10,000'. The A-10 is an Army aircraft, companion to the Apache. The reason it has not gone away is that many of us, but most important, members of Congress know the value of this Infrantry support and unique tank killer. Whoever has them will own the battlefield at the tactial level

Response by TSgt Louis Nieves made Mar 7 at 2024 11:32 PM

2024-03-07T23:32:05-05:00

as ex air force ive seen what a a-10 csn do to a target. in vietnam wr had the syraider(the dump trucks) slow prop plane but deadly ive seen the a-10 on the gunnery range in ga. if youre ate enemy you font want to hear that 30.mm canon. sounded like azipper opening up the targets!

Response by TSgt Louis Nieves made Mar 7 at 2024 11:33 PM

2024-03-07T23:33:57-05:00

a-10 warthog can kick it ive seen them in action!

Response by PVT Mark Campbell made Apr 5 at 2024 3:35 AM

2024-04-05T03:35:10-04:00

I don't care, I want one!!!!!

Response by MSG Thomas Currie made Apr 5 at 2024 2:09 PM

2024-04-05T14:09:25-04:00

Who came up with the crazy idea that A-10s are being sent to Israel at all??

The unit this clickbait nonsense is talking about is the 354th Fighter Squadron, that deployed shortly before the Hamas terrorist attack. Yes, they are in the "Middle East" supporting CENTCOM.

While the Air Force does not release the specific locations of deployed units, A-10s from the 354th have been observed at Al Dhafra Air Base in the United Arab Emirates.

Bottom line: no A-10s have been given, lent, or sent to Israel.

Response by Lt Col Warren Domke made Apr 6 at 2024 9:52 PM

2024-04-06T21:52:44-04:00

I don't think anyone in or out of the USAF considers them "useless." A big problem for any high tech service is the cost of maintaining large inventories of weapon systems. The A-10, as has been noted, was designed to be used in an environment where our side had control of the air. In a more contested environment they would be vulnerable to a number of threats, a disadvantage also shared by heavy attack helicopters. If we have the luxury of keeping an inventory of fighters like the F-16, F-18, F-15, et al, the A-10 as well as the choppers would have a much friendlier environment in which to operate. The question is can we afford this luxury? Add to that the fact the A-10 is an aging system more subject to breakdowns and failures and the service is right to look at alternatives.

Response by 1SG Dean Mcbride (MPER) (CPHR) made Apr 7 at 2024 11:30 PM

2024-04-07T23:30:24-04:00

The A-10's GAU-8 30 mm rotary cannon is arguably its most famous feature. Mounted in the nose, this Gatling gun is one of the most powerful fitted to an aircraft to date. Its rapid bursts are responsible for the A-10s famous raspy sound, which comes from its seven barrels firing 65 rounds per second. The A10 thunderbolt aka warthog, was not available in Vietnam - I would have loved to have seen it in action there! If nothing else, it would have scared the hell out of Charlie!
The first prototype flew in 1972, the first production aircraft flew in 1975, and deliveries commenced in March 1976, or in other words, the USAF did not officially accept the type until about 11 months after the war in Vietnam ended (April 30, 1975).

Response by PO1 James Palmer made Jun 22 at 2024 3:19 PM

2024-06-22T15:19:06-04:00

It’s not useless its got a role in ground support the USAF wants to get rid of it but the Army and Marines want it

Response by Cpl Ronald Mangrum made Jun 26 at 2024 3:32 PM

2024-06-26T15:32:00-04:00

The A-10 Warthogs are an awesome aircraft! They are not called the tank killer for nothing! OOHRAH USMC!

Response by Sgt Ed Beal made Jun 28 at 2024 8:39 PM

2024-06-28T20:39:16-04:00

Anybody that thinks the a10 is useless is a government contractor or a politician wanting to spend more $ , the A 10 has been the best low and slow support aircraft for many decades, only 310 knots? But these bad ass planes can drop to below 50’ off the deck and do a 180 around a telephone pole then destroy a tank or what ever, I am sure they have more electronics than they had when I was in, they were trying to retire them in the early 80’s , super awesome ground attack air craft, once you hear the giant raspberry or Long Fart you know nothing in its path is still there, would love to see today’s electronics, but never would get tired of hearing it spit fire.

Response by SPC Clifford Deal made Jul 7 at 2024 9:42 PM

2024-07-07T21:42:33-04:00

That old 1946 debate and decision to create the air force, where they get fixed wing aircraft, and the Army decided to use rotary wing, kinda created a few holes in the areas of responsability. THAT needs to be plugged , in my opinion. The AF are kinda locked into the air supremacy box and can't think outside of it. Unfortunatly CAS is outside it, by about 35,000 feet...

Response by MSgt Michael Lane made Jul 8 at 2024 3:15 PM

2024-07-08T15:15:54-04:00

The Air Force doesn't want to do close air support but the don't want anyone else to do it either.

Response by HN Chris R. made Jul 8 at 2024 10:43 PM

2024-07-08T22:43:23-04:00

The A-10 is NOT useless at all in anyone's inventory!!!

Response by SPC Clifford Deal made Jul 9 at 2024 6:38 AM

2024-07-09T06:38:20-04:00

No they just got lost.

Response by TSgt Mark Avant made Jul 15 at 2024 10:39 PM

2024-07-15T22:39:24-04:00

In addition to what Col Cudworth said. The A-10’s consume alot of funding keeping them flying that could be better spent on more capable and modern platforms. It is a relic of the Tank warfare era when the soviets strategy in Europe was to throw wave after wave of tanks at NATO forces.

Response by Bethina Lee made Jul 18 at 2024 12:36 AM

2024-07-18T00:36:14-04:00

Because they are tough bastards; also they have tons of materials that can be salvaged and recycled

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jul 21 at 2024 6:58 PM

2024-07-21T18:58:41-04:00

There seems to be a bias against them by the USAF generals. There was a competition between the F-35 and the A-10s in CAS missions. The F-35s were given the same loitering time and the A-10s were not given the maximum payload of 30 mm rounds. It was completely rigged.

Ukraine needs weapons systems like the A-10s because they can't bust through the Russian linear defenses. Therefore, Ukraine needs weapons systems to go over and around the Russian military. I don't completely buy into the Russian will destroy most of the A-10s. We would have to assume that they are competent at warfare.

Response by CW4 William Kessinger made Jul 31 at 2024 1:29 PM

2024-07-31T13:29:36-04:00

Not sure why the AF is always trying to get rid of the A-10. I suspect to the bean counters (in the AF) it really is a one mission aircraft. (not-Multi role)

Back when I was commissioned as an Armor type, the AF was trying to give the A-10 to the Army as its primary mission was to kill tanks (back then). I was saying Hell Ya, send it on over! But the powers that-be in the Army had to remind the AF of the agreement back in the mid 70's that the AF did not want us (the Army) flying guns on fixed wing aircraft. We had to un-arm all our Mohawks.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2024 1:17 AM

2024-08-01T01:17:18-04:00

They're not useless... they're just not "sexy" to the fighter jocks.

In a world full of body-sculpting bros, it's the barrel-chested wildman who wrestles bears.

Response by SGT Richard Nowak made Aug 3 at 2024 2:05 PM

2024-08-03T14:05:09-04:00

Yeah, the A-10 were so "useless" during the Gulf War and OIF in destroying Iraqi armor and vehicles. Just another example of these Pentagon pointy heads constantly trying to re-invent the wheel. But I'll bet dollars to donuts the IDF Air Force is ecstatic about getting those birds.

Response by PO1 Kevin Dougherty made Aug 7 at 2024 12:49 AM

2024-08-07T00:49:46-04:00

Perhaps it's time to rethink the fixed wing limitations for the Army and transfer the full responsibility for CAS to them. Fixed wing aircraft have some definite advantages over rotary wing aircraft, and vice versa. Put the whole of the CAS in the hands of the Army and let them workout the optimum mix of both.

Response by LCDR George Townsend made Aug 7 at 2024 7:37 PM

2024-08-07T19:37:40-04:00

The Air Force does and always has hated the A-10 airframe because the USAF abhors the close air support mission. The flybois would rather be in sexy fighter jets or obscenely obsolete bombers rather than actually help groundpounders achieve their missions. Nobody gets promoted in the USAF for helping out the Army and Marines; they get promoted for chest-pounding while flying hugely-expensive fighters and 1950's era bombers. The US National Security would be best served by abolishing the Air Force and giving their budget to the Army and Navy, who could do a way-better job of purchasing true weapons of war that help achieve national security goals.

Response by SPC Staci Brill made Aug 12 at 2024 3:43 PM

2024-08-12T15:43:43-04:00

When I was on reforger in 1978-79, what impressed me was that you didn’t hear them coming until they were above you. Seems to me that’s a very good advantage for cas.

Response by SPC Clifford Deal made Aug 30 at 2024 9:34 PM

2024-08-30T21:34:44-04:00

Military "Intellegence" Analysts....

Response by SPC Clifford Deal made Aug 30 at 2024 9:35 PM

2024-08-30T21:35:17-04:00

Response by SPC Clifford Deal made Aug 30 at 2024 11:40 PM

2024-08-30T23:40:31-04:00

Probably for the same reason the OV 10 Bronco was. Just too good at the job.

Response by SFC Freddie Porter made Aug 31 at 2024 12:07 AM

2024-08-31T00:07:54-04:00

It seems the premise of your question is flawed. The A-10 was a designed by pilots for the express purpose of close air ground support of the troops on the ground and for the Army pilots. There has been a lot of back and forth about who has them, the Army or the Air Force with the Air Force ultimately taken them into their inventory (after all who flies the friendly skies; certainly not the Army; such blasphemy be spoken). The Air Force in the philosophy of how to support ground troops wants an inventory of multi use aircraft and not one designed exclusively for one type of mission; close combat ground air support. This aircraft is so popular with combat ams soldiers that every time the AF tries to phase them out there is a hue and cry from the soldiers of such of magnitude that it reaches inside the beltway from the distant reaches of the world from Combat Arms soldiers which has made getting ride of them very unpopular no matter how the AF inside the beltway brass feels about the subject. They have thus been kept around longer than a lot of people have thought they would stay. It is a terrific addition to close combat and hopefully be kept around for many many more years.

Response by SPC Clifford Deal made Aug 31 at 2024 9:27 AM

2024-08-31T09:27:31-04:00

In one word:

"Zoomies"

Response by SPC Cory Thomson made Nov 1 at 2024 12:27 PM

2024-11-01T12:27:42-04:00

For the same reasons they keep giving for trying to scrap the f14, 15, 16, 18 and now even talk of the f22. They have these representatives of the industrial military complex who keep pushing that the jsf is the only and therefore best replacement for all those planes. And when the planes they are trying to replace keep outperforming their supposed better counterparts they dangle in their faces, “but look they float and fly upwards, also here’s a contract for several billion dollars in your state. How about now?” This is the equivalent of saying that the b52 isn’t modern enough and then using them for 50 years to super great effect. The icbms in Montana are controlled by a floppy disc! And not a modern one, a literally floppy disc about a half foot wide. Why don’t they upgrade? Because they are unhackable. They are idiot proof, and they are reliable. As a mechanic I subscribe to : if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.