If a soldier isn't competent enough to set up their own ASU, why keep them in the service?

CW2(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 18:16:45 -0500

Somebody tell me something, I know this isn't as important as some of the discussions we have but I think it has to be addressed. If a soldier isn't competent enough to set up their own ASU (minus the look over by their leadership to check for minor adjustments), why are they in the service if they can't complete such a task?

Something so simple especially with all the technology, the infamous AR 670-1, and almost EVERYTHING being available provided by Google. I understand we're suppose to be there for our battle buddies and our soldiers, but DAMN! These soldiers act like they never learned how to set up their uniforms in basic training. Give me your input and opinion on this matter because I kind of find it pathetic.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2014 6:23 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 18:23:24 -0500

It is one thing to have the all of the information at hand, but there never is a substitute for experience. Younger Soldiers simply do not have the experience of repeatedly setting up their uniforms, the way that some of us have.

At the same time though, it is the responsibility of us as leaders to guide and mentor these Soldiers to set them up for success. Rather than look down on them for something they can't do, buck up as a leader and show them how it's done.

Response by CH (CPT) Heather Davis made Feb 10 at 2014 11:52 AM

CH (CPT) Heather Davis — Mon, 10 Feb 2014 11:52:42 -0500

SGT Robinson: Welcome to the world of Leadership, it comes in three stages. If they are not willing and able you parent them. If they are willing and not able you mentor them. If they are willing and able, you guide them. I will share with you in my thirty years of serving; I look back in my career, and it is development. It is called pay forward I look at how I came up on big shoulders. Every rank you make is because others poured into you. It is not about you, it is about pouring into the next generation and overall we all sworn to an oath to protect and defend the Constitution.

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Feb 10 at 2014 1:31 PM

CW2 Joseph Evans — Mon, 10 Feb 2014 13:31:55 -0500

The problem is "Practice makes Perfect". If you don't practice, it won't be perfect. Yes, this includes tasks as simple as setting up your ACUs. Some Soldiers have an intuitive knack for attention to detail, others for repetitive drill, some are naturally athletic. None of that matters though if the opportunity to practice is not there.

There used to be a time when you were lucky to get a Dress formation once a year... Stuff is pretty "Eight Up" if that's all the more often it gets done. Take it off, put it on, how high above the pocket? Where does it go on the lapel?... Practice makes perfect.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2014 3:43 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Feb 2014 15:43:23 -0500

Have squad level uniform inspections every once in a while, even if it's just an on-the-hanger inspection. As long as the uniforms are inspected and corrected properly, the soldiers should get the hang of doing this after a couple times. When it comes time for the real thing, it should take no more than a quick lookover the day prior to make sure their uniforms are in order. I also like to charge them with inspecting each other's uniforms before I even get there. If your buddy looks ate up, your squad looks ate up.

Response by SPC Davie Harvey made Feb 10 at 2014 9:02 PM

SPC Davie Harvey — Mon, 10 Feb 2014 21:02:29 -0500

To be completely honest... I graduated basic Feb. 2010 and Did not ONCE put together my dress greens. I never put them on in Basic because I graduated in my ACUs. I didn't wear them in AIT, because the graduation where I was going to wear them, I didn't attend (E-Leave). When I got to my unit, the Reg confused me, so when I asked my SGT for help, he did it for me. EVEN MY DRY CLEANERS HERE NEAR POST AUTOMATICALLY PUTS THEM ON CORRECTLY. You can't alway blame the soldier... I had to take pictures of my uniform, write measurements from the regs... take my stuff off and teach myself... I'd be in a world of hurt.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2014 10:58 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 Feb 2014 22:58:35 -0500

People do still make mistakes, its good to have a second set of eyes regardless. I remember a Vietnam era SGM who had a "5" on his NCOPD ribbon mistakenly thinking the 1SGs course was a level of the NCOES. More recently I have seen: Senior NCOs with the wheat growing down on their ASUA.  A very senior NCO with the stars on his Iraqi Campaign medal pointing downwards.  A COL walking around with his name tapes reversed on his ACUs. A 1SG with no unit patch. Sometimes Murphy doesn't care how well you know AR 670-1.  Shit happens to the best of us.  Here is what I want to know.....how many of us males actually know how to setup a females ASUs and vice versa? Every board I have sat on the last few months, male NCOs of female Soldiers have been completely lost when asked about how they assisted in setting up their subordinates uniform.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2014 9:55 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Feb 2014 09:55:55 -0500

I think it's really sad that Soldiers can't put their own uniforms
together. Got back from my last deployment and we had an uniform
inspection almost right away. Soldiers went off to off post
establishments. The shop they went to charged them $100 and didn't even
put the ribbons on right! Whats even more sad is that SPC and NCOs who
could put uniforms together pretty well charged some of the Soldiers and didn't teach them while they did it!!

Response by CPT Mike M. made Feb 12 at 2014 12:00 PM

CPT Mike M. — Wed, 12 Feb 2014 12:00:16 -0500

We're all one team and need to work together for mission accomplishment. So battle buddies do need to have each other's back in everything they do to make sure they're set up for success.

However, I'm with you 100% because a lot can be said of a person who's independent, self sufficient, and self-motivated enough to succeed. As you said, there are too many resources out there to take care of one's self. And CSM Harris' comment is totally true, but as long as you understand the uniform regs but just want a helping hand getting it perfect to the smallest detail (knowing what right looks like is key so you can confirm it's accurate) then go ahead and take advantage of off post places.

Once it's done once, you're pretty well set. With the exception of awards because the amount and rack sizes will change every few years, all other pins never move. I've been able to strip my uniform, take it to the cleaners, get it back, and find the same holes the pins were in previously and stick them right back in. A quick measure to make sure I got it right and it's set back up in a matter of a few minutes.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2014 1:49 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Feb 2014 13:49:26 -0500

I started out as Infantry and they are very detail orientated. You messed with your uniform then took it apart and did it all over again. Your Leadership wasn't happy until you were mistake free.

I then changed over to Airframe repairer (Aviation) and I worked with a 6 inch ruler on a daily basis. My attention to detail tunred into OCD because now I had the tool and daily means to always measure my uniform.

I personally think it is crap that someone else puts your uniform together. I can understand your NCO helping him. I say it is a Leadership failure if they don't know how to put their uniform together. It all boils down to attention to detail and pride. If I found a Soldier that had a jacked up uniform I would take them to the side and train them and their Leadership correctly.

Response by MSG Sean Hendricks made Feb 12 at 2014 2:34 PM

MSG Sean Hendricks — Wed, 12 Feb 2014 14:34:09 -0500

For years, I posted the quote below (Reasons for Human Failure) at the bottom of all of my e-mails.  I did this for various reasons but, I did it specifically as a reminder to myself because of the observed incompetence displayed by some of my peers and superiors throughout my career.  So, after reading the header/title of this discussion and all of the responses, I had to share it.  I believe in taking responsibility for your actions or the lack thereof. Lastly, it is important to understand that incompetence has consequences which affect all ranks and all MOSs alike.  Reasons for Human Failure: When standards do not exist -Command Failure. When standards exist and are not known -Training Failure. When standards exist, are known, and not enforced -Leader Failure. When standards exist, are known, and not followed -Individual Failure.

Response by SFC John Brooks made Feb 18 at 2014 5:35 AM

SFC John Brooks — Tue, 18 Feb 2014 05:35:53 -0500

SGT Robinson,

When we entered the service, none of us knew much about it. We were taught by NCOs what we needed to know and where to find the information. AR 670-1 was drilled into a lot of us, and I too take it for granted at times that everyone knows the regulation and where to find it. It always amazes me when I mention the reg and a Soldier doesn't understand what I'm talking about, but it happens. At that point, you enter teaching mode and ensure they understand what the regulation is for and where to find it.

You're hitting on a deeper issue here than just uniform standards and knowing information. The type of Soldier coming out of training isn't the same as when some of us came through, because the recruitment pool has changed drastically with the times. Age may be starting to show here, but "kids these days" have different values and unfortunately society doesn't place much demand for discipline on them. We live in a world where people can get by doing the bare minimum or nothing at all and that's what a lot of these new soldiers have had drilled into their heads before they ever considered the military.

It sounds like with this Soldier, you have a prime opportunity to lead and guide. We all have different skill sets and some of us aren't as good at the details as others, but that's why we have each other to lean on. A Soldier not knowing how to set up their dress uniform is a problem that should be fixed, no doubt, but I wouldn't label them incompetent unless it is a recurring issue where he/she just refuses to or has an inability to learn what right is.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 18 at 2014 5:57 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Feb 2014 05:57:46 -0500

SGT Robinson,

I know it can be frustrating at times. Keep in mind part of being an NCO is showing Soldiers what right looks like. Sometimes that means continually looking of their uniform for corrections. I had three NCOs (SFC and above) in my office look over my uniform before getting my DA Photo for this years board and there was still something wrong on it when I got to the photo lab. Luckily I noticed it before I had my photo taken. Point is, NOBODY is perfect and there you should always get a second or maybe a third set of eyes on anything you are doing professionally.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2014 10:34 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 02 Mar 2014 10:34:06 -0500

I can bring a different perspective to this conversation. In basic training (2011) we NEVER wore the ASU, we NEVER talked about the proper wearing of each piece, and the only piece we touched besides accepting it from supply was the beret, that we spent hours on hours shaving. I made it a priority of mine when I got to DLI to ensure I understood each part of the uniform and proper wear of each piece of brass/medal.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2014 7:08 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 05 Mar 2014 19:08:16 -0500

Better men than I have worn the same uniform, so I feel I owe the effort of doing it myself to them.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 27 at 2014 2:43 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Mar 2014 14:43:18 -0400

Not every soldier knows everything, and not every soldier is good at everything. SGT Robinson, it's on you as a leader to impart knowledge and wisdom to your subordinates. If a subordinate doesn't know how to square away that uniform it reflects as poorly on you as it does them because it tells your superiors you aren't doing your job as an NCO. I understand you've got soldiers who fall right in, they get it right 95% of the time, but there will always be soldiers who need your guidance 95% of the time.

If you ever find yourself in charge of a handful or squads-worth of soldiers remember this: When your troops are squared away, both effective in appearance and ability, it directly reflects on you as a leader.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2014 9:07 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Mar 2014 21:07:19 -0400

Honestly we need practice, practice, practice. If there is one event a year that we need our ASU, chances are us newer folk aren't going to remember every individual aspect of the uniform.

Response by CPT Daniel Walk, M.B.A. made May 7 at 2014 10:19 PM

CPT Daniel Walk, M.B.A. — Wed, 07 May 2014 22:19:38 -0400

Simple: Nobody will take the time to do the counselings and administer additional/corrective training in a way that either solves the problem or lays the groundwork for separation.

Response by SSG Trevor S. made May 8 at 2014 12:24 AM

SSG Trevor S. — Thu, 08 May 2014 00:24:35 -0400

SGT Robinson,
This is a well known, but little talked about right of passage for NCO's. You are responsible for everything, at all times, for everyone under your guidance. An ASU / Class A inspection is not always to see if the Soldier is squared away, sometimes it is to see if the NCO squares away the Soldier.
That being said, you should develop your Soldier to the point where they put it together and you spot check. Don't count on a Drill Sergeant to do your ground work for you.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made May 9 at 2014 6:41 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Fri, 09 May 2014 06:41:52 -0400

As many uniform corrections as I have to make, day in and day out, especially on NCO's and Officers, if we did as you suggest, our end strength would be smaller than the Coast Guards...

Response by SGT Cynthia Barnard made Feb 27 at 2018 9:17 PM

SGT Cynthia Barnard — Tue, 27 Feb 2018 21:17:19 -0500

I completely agree with you especially since my last CSM Called me into his office to ask me how to set up his gear which put me in a very difficult position I set it up for him but the whole time I was thinking OMG i’m deploying with this idiot Lord help us all needless to say by the end of the appointment he was being asked to retire

Response by MSG John Duchesneau made Jun 20 at 2018 12:30 AM

MSG John Duchesneau — Wed, 20 Jun 2018 00:30:50 -0400

Humm… lets see. Most soldiers don't know how to set up their ASUs because they hardly ever wear them. As an NCO it is your job to make sure your soldiers are competent in all tasks they are required to be proficient in. Don't take the "they should already know that, so I won't teach them" cop out. Show your deficient Soldiers how to set up their ASUs and have them report to you in ASUs daily until they get it right.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 30 at 2019 4:45 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 30 May 2019 16:45:14 -0400

I set up my own uniform but I still have my friend who is honor guard double check my work a second set of eyes is the best way to make sure nothing was over looked. Getting it all done somewhere else however is just lazy.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2019 10:20 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 02 Aug 2019 22:20:24 -0400

The country is full of people with one tour and I am very grateful for their service!

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Oct 19 at 2019 7:46 AM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Sat, 19 Oct 2019 07:46:48 -0400

What's so hard about down loading an app for AR670-1? That don't even have to crack the PDF open.