“I'm going to fail height-weight on purpose and get booted” – how would you handle this?

2016-10-21T11:24:52-04:00

This actually happened to me while I was a battery XO in Hawaii. My brigade had just gotten back from OIF and we were in that weird period of tons of people leaving the unit, and tons of new people coming in. I was in the motor pool like a good XO and one of the guys came up to me and asked to chat in private – he was a SPC (E-4) who was on soft shoe profile and had been for a few months. He was also on some PT profile, which many were skeptical of but that’s not the point. He was also quite overweight and in bad physical shape.

“I don’t want to be in the Army anymore,” he told me. “I’m just planning to keep failing height-weight over and over until I get booted out.” So I talked with him and we went back and forth about what’s really going on with him, etc. But he just stayed firm on: (1) wanting to get out of the Army ASAP; and (2) planning to put no effort into passing height-weight, to get booted.

Obviously I know what actions I took here but I don’t want to spoil it for everyone. How would you have responded in this situation?

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2016 11:28 AM

2016-10-21T11:28:03-04:00

Probably don't need him. For the time being ensure he isn't a risk to others. Besides, he may have plagiarized his plan from Homer Simpson:
http://simpsons.wikia.com/wiki/King-Size_Homer

King-Size Homer

"King-Size Homer" is the seventh episode of Season 7 and aired on November 5, 1995. The episode was written by Dan Greaney and directed by Jim Reardon. Joan Kenley guest stars. Homer tries everything to get out of the plant's new exercise program and discovers that being on disability would do just that. With Bart's help, Homer begins eating whatever he could get ahold of, including play-dough. Mr. Burns organizes an exercise program at the...

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Oct 21 at 2016 11:29 AM

2016-10-21T11:29:01-04:00

Is that actually the person?

I had a friend of mine say something similar, he was also in school and close to finish. I told him life would go on but try your best to pass.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Oct 21 at 2016 11:32 AM

2016-10-21T11:32:38-04:00

Unfortunately you don't really have a choice if that's his intent. I don't know about Army, but the Marines literally get 2 choices. You either make progress to lose the weight or you get kicked out. If he's not even going to make progress, then you are just wasting your time on him. You can't force him to eat right and you can't force him to exercise.

So my recommendation would be to get the command involved. He's not going to get off that easy. For Marines, you had 6 months to lose the weight and be back in standards. Well if it's the same for Army, that's 6 months that he could spend every day and night scrubbing the COs and SgtMajs toilets. He doesn't like it, well too bad. That's the path he wanted to take. Time to live with it.

Response by 1SG Dennis Hicks made Oct 21 at 2016 11:35 AM

2016-10-21T11:35:34-04:00

I had to think about this between my smart ass remarks, the old school attitude adjustment methods and the plain old WTF I came to this. I would get the troops COC to sit down with him/her to discuss their issues and give him the consequences to his/her actions not to exclude health. In the old days peer pressure or hit the road talks would just push the problem off. This troop enlisted and made a promise of X many years of Service if HE/SHE bail on that promise with will haunt them for many years to include his characterized Discharge/DD214. Leadership doesn't have the time to deal with every little snow flake that feels they can take their ball and go home when they feel like it. This troops leadership should do what is required and based upon his/her value invest whatever time is warranted. Otherwise cut the troop loose and let them learn about life the hard way.

Oh yeah I think there are better pictures out there than a thin troop with a pillow under his shirt that that one, the arms don't even match that fat content :)

Response by SSgt Terry P. made Oct 21 at 2016 11:36 AM

2016-10-21T11:36:26-04:00

CPT Aaron Kletzing He would have been gone as fast as i could get rid of him.He would be detrimental to morale .

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2016 11:40 AM

2016-10-21T11:40:37-04:00

I would make sure he gets out of the Army. At the very least I would let him know the ramifications of his actions. But if a soldier is doing this and thinks it is a smart move then the Army really doesn't need him. That doesn't align with the Army values.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Oct 21 at 2016 11:45 AM

2016-10-21T11:45:53-04:00

Step one is wanting to help yourself.. If that step can not be taken, on thier own or with education, encouragement, support.
Then far as Im concerned they are a lost cause, not an asset to the unit and I would process them most expediently so a SM that IS an asset may be part of the unit. I would also caution (warn) them, it would be expected they live up to the contract they signed and committed to, that Duty was honorbound until the last day of service, failure of that and it would not be acceptable, UCMJ, and or other then separation under Chap 18 is likley.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2016 11:48 AM

2016-10-21T11:48:07-04:00

CPT Aaron Kletzing I would talk to the Soldier about health effects of being overweight, why is he/she taking this coa etc, and if he/she insists on getting fat I would gladly process the necessary paperwork to include the flag(no passes/leave during that time), put him/her in the extra pt that no one else has to do, and give him/her as a parting gift a bk gift card and a nice kick in the behind.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2016 11:58 AM

2016-10-21T11:58:41-04:00

I say "BYE" !!!

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Oct 21 at 2016 12:02 PM

2016-10-21T12:02:38-04:00

1) Investigate. If possible, find out what the root cause is. He says he doesn't want to be there. There's got to be "a reason." That reason may or may not be valid from our perspective, but it's obviously valid from his, and it's big enough that he's willing to talk about it openly. Investigate fully.

2) Remedy if possible. Sometimes a new perspective can fix the underlying cause or at least get him to ride it out til ETS/EAS. He won't be a "Star performer" but but he won't be interfering with others as well.

3) Educate. Remind them that simply failing height/weight isn't a get out of jail instantly card. It's a "process" which can take 3-12 months, and now that you are aware of intent, you will take as long as possible to process it. Additionally, because it is "premeditated" we have inserted LEGAL elements into the equation like "failure to follow a legal order" (PT is performance of duties) and "malingering" (PT is Health). This gets real complex very quickly.

Commanders have some discretion in the chaptering process, but they need contextual information (see 1 & 2) to make that work. A troop destroying their body and future career "just to get out" doesn't make sense. There's more to the story.

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made Oct 21 at 2016 12:19 PM

2016-10-21T12:19:43-04:00

I had this or APFT failure happen a couple of times. They were good Soldiers and I told them that they should keep their options open but I wasn't going to baby them and the choice was theirs and they would have to live with them. They took my advise and didn't fail on purpose.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2016 12:26 PM

2016-10-21T12:26:26-04:00

I am of a conflicted mind on this one. While there is an unhappy person who has found an easy out do we hold them to a standard or do we say Bye and free up resources?

On the one hand you have a member that had publicly stated they are not even going to try, They don't care. What does that say to the rest of the command if they are given a free pass? What does that tell the new Junior Enlisted? I would want to beat them every day till they were in standards to prove the point, you signed on the line. this isn't the cub scouts you don't get to just go home when your unhappy.

On the other side of that, is why would I want to keep someone that will be bringing down moral, is a risk to others and the mission, and quite frankly a drain on resources. Why keep paying someone and giving them all these benefits when they refuse to follow the rules and regulations?

The only way I can coincide these two thoughts is a public mast for dereliction of duty and a other than honorable. Make it public so everyone knows there are consequences for their choices and actions.

All of this is based on your (1) and (2) statement.

Response by SPC Erich Guenther made Oct 21 at 2016 12:42 PM

2016-10-21T12:42:58-04:00

Don't even wait ===> "Failure to Adapt".

This was my first Active Duty Army unit in 1984-85 and I am going off memory here. This was just a 18 month tour then I PCS'd to the 101st Airborne:

Outside of my Platoon:

1LT relieved of command and forced to resign, pointing a loaded .45 at a Enlisted Member.

Easily 30-45 Article 15's for FTR, Urinanalysis Test failures, Missing Movement, DUI, etc.

Two SGT involuntarily placed into the BSEP program and told they had to pass everything with good grades or get booted out (basic math and reading issues with call for fire and TOPO map reading)

4-6 Medical profiles

4-5 Folks on "Fat Boy" remedial PT program.

Inside my Platoon:

PSG goes AWOL before quarterly records check............turns out he was a PX Ranger.

Replacement PSG, former Marine believes everyone in the Platoon should have a Article 15 as a gift towards promotion to higher rank (yeah Marines thought that way back then). He nails 3/4 of the Platoon on one BS item or another until the LT says "enough". Stopped short of me (whew!).

Section Leader busted (former 82nd Airborne) busted down to SPC from SGT for lying to a NCO. Was caught driving a privates car over an extended period of time and tried to get away with saying he just moved it once in the parking lot.

Squad Leader, Combat Infantryman from Vietnam put on notice to shape up or he will be booted out. Take your pick here, nice guy respect his service but complete inability to lead, my favorite quote repeated over and over again to me as a tracked vehicle driver over the CVC. "Wait up a minute, lets see what the other guys are doing first". OK I can understand that some of the time....but all the time?

One guy on CEDAC (Drug and Alchol reform), that guy took 8 months to boot out, unbelieveable amount of time and pure torture for the rest of us.

TWO AWOLS, little information there but one I believe illegally rented a car and made the mistake of arguing with the West German Police, I heard they beat him up pretty bad heard he just fled the country because somehow he obtained a Passport. The other guy just disappeared never to be seen or heard from again.

Thats all I remember but I am sure there were more. So I will always vote to boot someone out ASAP unless there is a really compelling reason not to. It is the taxpayers money after all being spent here.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2016 12:51 PM

2016-10-21T12:51:04-04:00

Do everything you can to help this person get out as quickly and smoothly as possible. The exact opposite of what you should be doing if someone has a profile and is working to get back withing height/weight standards.

On a side note, the crooked tape in the picture annoys me. If your going to measure something, make sure your measuring it correctly.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2016 1:36 PM

2016-10-21T13:36:42-04:00

Sometimes you can't help those who don't want to help. I'm assuming if that person is getting out and the way to do its failure of PRT/PFAs; it doesn't usually look good on a DD-214 (if I'm not mistaken). I've known a few people who got out because of weight issues and it wasn't that they weren't trying. Had a friend who gained 100# from having her son, and had lost about 60# when I left the ship; she was working hard, always at the gym and eating healthy, watching macros; it still wasn't enough. She was still overweight according to her height and her BF% (mind it was less than before) but wasn't in regs. She put in 7 years in the Navy and it was hard to walk away from something she loved so dearly.

In this situation, that Soldier made up their mind, there's nothing you can do to persuade them, Sir.

Good luck to you and the Soldier.

Response by Maj John Bell made Oct 21 at 2016 1:38 PM

2016-10-21T13:38:07-04:00

Obesity is it own curse. That soldier doesn't realize that he is creating a lifelong problem for himself. But you can't fix stupid. Let him go on a G.O.S. discharge and bring in a hard charger that wants to be there.

I wish God would have given us a natural diet of bacon, cheese, butter and rice. But he didn't. I've been on the wrong side of the mountain and its a damn steep climb back

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2016 2:17 PM

2016-10-21T14:17:56-04:00

Counsel, bar and send home. No need to keep someone in the service if they do not want to stay in, specially if they are firm in their commitment to get out. That ruins morale, brings the unit down in many ways and it's a detractor and bad example for other soldiers to see. Just my opinion.

Response by SFC J Fullerton made Oct 21 at 2016 2:29 PM

2016-10-21T14:29:17-04:00

Willful dereliction of duty as described under Article 92. Chaptering him out with a general discharge just because he doesn't want to be in the Army is being too kind. Courts Martial or FG AR-15 to feel some pain, then kick his ass to the curb.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2016 3:12 PM

2016-10-21T15:12:58-04:00

Very thought provoking question CPT Aaron Kletzing, can't wait to see the answers!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2016 3:25 PM

2016-10-21T15:25:43-04:00

Give 'em a high five and push 'em out. You can't save everyone.

Response by CW2 Ernest Krutzsch made Oct 21 at 2016 3:52 PM

2016-10-21T15:52:05-04:00

The more time you put into rehabilitating bad soldiers, the more time you take away from supporting good soldiers. I believe that I would not have released him for being overweight, but would have worked with JAG to find out if I could get him out on other than Honorable conditions because He TOLD me he was intentionally going to be overweight

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2016 4:17 PM

2016-10-21T16:17:48-04:00

I know someone who may do just that. Myself and a few others are trying to convince them otherwise. As I understand there was once a time where you could get an Admin Sep for Height and Weight and it would still be Honorable. As of right now it's a General Discharge. Knowing that I'm trying to get them to understand that if they want out they should leave with an Honorable Discharge and then walk away.

I would say try and convince them, make sure if they are aware of the consequences of doing so. They need to understand their options. So a sit down with their SGT and 1SG and maybe the XO or CO. If that's not an option and they're dead set on it... Make the separation as quickly and painlessly as possible.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2016 4:46 PM

2016-10-21T16:46:07-04:00

Simply let him know that if he truly wants to go this route, it then becomes the Commanders discretion as to what type of discharge is recommended. And, based on the one recommended and approved, he could lose some or most of his benefits. And, if he still wants to go that route, then the packet will be started with the appropriate documentation. And based on how some Commands process separation packets, the Soldier could just end up ETSing on schedule before the packet is approved. Not saying that will happen, but just a possibility.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Oct 21 at 2016 4:47 PM

2016-10-21T16:47:58-04:00

There were no spare socks and bar soap?

Sir, sometime the solution is worse than the problem? Do the proper paperwork and cut sling?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2016 4:54 PM

2016-10-21T16:54:22-04:00

Been reading through some of the posts...
I get I'm a young Soldier, and others have been doing this a lot longer than me. I also get that I am in charge of very little to nothing outside of what I'm given.

I will say this though...

Article 92 and possibly Article 115 for Malingering pending investigation. If he wants out like this though, there's a reason even if it isn't a good one. That needs to be looked into, he could be salvageable and retained if some questions could be answered. Perhaps he needs help and doesn't know how to respond to it.

Of course we could make it hurt or kick him to the curb as some of said...

"Competence is my watchword. My two basic responsibilities will always be uppermost in my mind. Accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my Soldiers.... All Soldiers are entitled to outstanding leadership; I will provide that leadership...."

I get it, some Soldiers are going to get Separated and some are going to get a Court-Martial some are just not a good fit. That doesn't negate your responsibility as an NCO to look out for those under you. If you're Soldiers are having problems whether it be PT or wanting out then it's your job to look into that.

That's not just an NCO or Officer responsibility, we're all supposed to look out for each other. If someone is having a problem we try and fix it. Punishment and Separation should be our final option. Going straight to it is just being lazy and irresponsible.

Response by Col Dona Marie Iversen made Oct 21 at 2016 5:53 PM

2016-10-21T17:53:18-04:00

I think we all experienced folks like this. I would want to know first and foremost ,why? What is the root cause? Maybe an underlining issue that needs to be addressed. If not and they truly want to bail, they signed up for x # of yrs commitment , can't just resign. I (others as required) would explore all options pro and cons-seek feedback and help the individual make the best possible choice with the understanding by intentionally failing a job requirement is dereliction of duty.

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Oct 21 at 2016 6:25 PM

2016-10-21T18:25:12-04:00

I'm sure there is some regulation you can punish such statements under. Probably something along the lines of intentionally disobeying a regulation, uttering contemptuous words, ect.... My response would probably have been to allow that process to go forward and expedite it. With a draw down taking willing Soldiers of good caliber but a few hiccups in their past, why not create one more slot worth of room for a Soldier that wants to be in?
If there is a way to get JAG and IG in on a deal with the Soldier for a voluntary separation, it could go faster AND be with reduced benefits while maintaining the Honorable Discharge for the exiting Service Member. I can't remember the exact circumstances that can cover though.

Response by 1SG Al Brown made Oct 21 at 2016 7:42 PM

2016-10-21T19:42:18-04:00

It's an option. There is always a reason why, and there are always tough consequences that will come with attempting the option. I had it happen once. The Soldier had serious family issues and a long enlistment. It made sense once. I did the paperwork.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Oct 21 at 2016 8:00 PM

2016-10-21T20:00:50-04:00

This actually used to be a common practice in the medical field about 15 years ago. Doctors would come in, get their medical bills paid off, go to schools and once they got everything they needed, willfully fail ht/wt so they could get out and go into private practice.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2016 9:05 PM

2016-10-21T21:05:49-04:00

Said okay and chaptered him out.

Response by MSG David Johnson made Oct 21 at 2016 10:30 PM

2016-10-21T22:30:52-04:00

There was a Soldier in my platoon that did this in 1991, but he was also helped by clintons "who wants out of the Army" program.
This kid gained about 75 pounds so fast his uniforms became almost skin tight.
He was processed out of the Army.

Response by SFC George Smith made Oct 22 at 2016 1:21 AM

2016-10-22T01:21:42-04:00

Got To meet the standards... or find a new Job... That damn fork did not make you Fat...

Response by MSG William Wold made Oct 22 at 2016 3:43 AM

2016-10-22T03:43:34-04:00

So I was asked by a soldier, so if your flagged for weight, no favorable action can be done for you. However, removing a soldier that wants out is in one way a favorable action, as he wants out. Amazing thing is he maxes the APFT, and hardly breaks a sweat doing so. He had under a year to go, he just wanted out sooner. Informing him that it won't be pretty and it could get to not be under honorable conditions, and the things that can go wrong in your future like employment etc. Well the next tape he was under the tape, and he actually got down to within the weight standards without tape. When I counseled him again all he said was I thought about what you said, I'm still getting out but I want to leave under a clean slate. HE did..
He also owns a couple fitness stores now.

Response by SSG Stephan Pendarvis made Oct 22 at 2016 8:47 AM

2016-10-22T08:47:01-04:00

cya

Response by TSgt Steve Waide made Oct 22 at 2016 10:01 AM

2016-10-22T10:01:57-04:00

I have always told my troops that the quickest and easiest way to get out of the military is to do your enlistment and be done. That way you don't have the stigma of having a possible dishonorable discharge. The military is not for everyone but don't be a b!tch and quit when things get tough. Sorry for the word choice but this irritates me to no end.

Response by MSgt James Trent made Oct 22 at 2016 11:22 AM

2016-10-22T11:22:51-04:00

1) Find out why he wants out. Maybe it is something that can be addressed. Does he dislike his job? Is he having personnel issues? Doesn't like his shift? Causing issues with family? Hates the changes that have come along in the last 8 years? Doesn't want to take chance of being deploying to war zone?
2) Remind him that it is not a quick process to get out for not meeting weight standards. He could actually end up with a dishonorable discharge if he is refusing to obey orders such as going to gym, working out and such. In the Air Force it can take a while before they kick you out because it depends on the people in charge if they want to say you are not making progress.
3) Step 3 will depend on what you get out of the person for reasons why they want out.
4) Send to talk to counselors who may be able to address some spiritual or mental issues that are causing this.
5) Remind them that trying to fail the test can have physical issues that may not be easily fixed when getting out.
6) If everything else fails then you can remind them that they are still in the military and there are rules and regulations they agreed to when signing up. If it's their first enlistment then you could break out the punishment dialogue about what could happen to make life miserable while he waits to get out. If they have been in longer remind them that they would be wasting their years in towards retirement.

Response by PO1 John Meyer, CPC made Oct 22 at 2016 4:35 PM

2016-10-22T16:35:37-04:00

I had a young sailor like that once. I tried to convince him to just finish his enlistment because it would be better for him in the long run, but he was adamant about getting out ASAP. So I sat him down, ran down the pros and cons of not finishing his enlistment and left it at that.

I think those of us that have been in a leadership position for a while can tell which juniors we can save from themselves and which ones we cannot.

Response by 1SG Mike Case made Oct 23 at 2016 7:34 AM

2016-10-23T07:34:45-04:00

I would make sure all the paperwork was correct to ensure that the Soldier's journey to get out of the Army was as quick and smooth as possible. The faster you can get a person out like that, the better. He was more than likely a drain of resources and on the system. Those Soldiers have it all figured out and trying to help them stay in is a lost cause.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2016 10:04 AM

2016-10-23T10:04:38-04:00

I would honestly question their patriotism and if it were a male Soldier, I would question his ability to provide for his family. However, I would also tell them to stop riding a profile and take and fail the APFT. I mean come on. We all know that Soldier that would be willing to do this would also be riding an erroneous profile. I would then explain to them that it would be faster to get out of my Army that way. Fail one APFT and then the second, within 90 days and they can go ahead and go back to their parents basement that much faster.

Response by SPC Sheila Lewis made Oct 24 at 2016 10:36 AM

2016-10-24T10:36:03-04:00

I know a Veteran who would gladly serve again...me.

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Oct 24 at 2016 11:56 AM

2016-10-24T11:56:58-04:00

Help him separate from the military in the correct manner. Encourage him to try and pass the test. If he still insists, then he's obviously not mentally fit to serve, so try and get him out on a medical discharge. Don't be punitive unless you can't help it -he obviously does not want to be there anymore, but there is no reason to ruin his chances with the VA. Just help him get out any way you can.

Response by SSgt James Payne made Oct 24 at 2016 1:03 PM

2016-10-24T13:03:15-04:00

This is tough. I was denied re-enlistment for being overweight (I did 9 yrs 9 mos). 100% my fault I do not blame the fork. However I did still care till the day I got out, it was my body that was breaking all the time and made PT very hard. The old philosophy was I will run the weight off and continue to eat and drink the same. You get to the point where you cannot give any more effort because the pain is bad. I did go to medical and ended up with a 50% disability rating from the VA. Mentally I started breaking down because I knew as a Marine what was expected of me and I could not fulfill it any more. Then to have the command coming down on me was really tough. I wanted out badly but tried hard until my enlistment was up. Tough spot to be in, made my last year pure hell. I wish I knew then what I know about dieting and how to eat more healthy.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2016 1:03 PM

2016-10-24T13:03:37-04:00

This makes me pretty mad considering there are some people who truly want to be a part of the military that are squared away individuals but have a hard time keeping up with the height and weight standards that get booted and then there are people like this who do it on purpose because they don't care. Bottom line is you signed a contract and so you do your best to fulfil that contract until it's up period! at least have some pride in serving your country.

Response by SSG Wendell Morsell made Oct 24 at 2016 3:00 PM

2016-10-24T15:00:43-04:00

The assumption is that he doesn't want to help himself or he doesn't know what he's doing to himself. I Feel differently . This guy has a plan, and he's telling it, so council him as you should , Bar him from reinlistment and send him home. No need to try and distroy his life in the process.

Response by SSgt Michael Cox made Oct 24 at 2016 4:24 PM

2016-10-24T16:24:18-04:00

If it was an out of the blue thing he could have been assaulted while deployed or bullied and just tired of the treatment. Remember a male is less likely to say anything than even a female assault victim.

Response by Sgt David Hesser made Oct 24 at 2016 8:13 PM

2016-10-24T20:13:18-04:00

as a employer, you can tell him that most of us will hire a vet over a non vet and we can sniff out quitters or people that feel owed, most young people in the service have no real idea what it is like working in the civilian world and are in for a world of shock when they enter it without at least a bachelor degree. Capt. sir as long as you have done everything in your power to educate this young man hold your head high because you didn't fail he failed himself.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2016 9:41 PM

2016-10-24T21:41:26-04:00

I would try to find out the reason, but from how he was described, maybe he just couldn't handle the physical side of soldiering. I would try to help them get out, but until their last day they would have CQ 3 days/wk. It makes no sense to have a fully capable soldier sitting there wasting their time when I have this guy who can't/won't do anything right here.

Response by PO3 Christopher Jonah Nelson made Oct 25 at 2016 2:11 AM

2016-10-25T02:11:18-04:00

Honestly, to me, it sounds like he's having problems with his command. You might want to look in to how he's being treated by his superiors, because that is a very defeatist attitude, and if he was planning on deserting, he would have just done it.

Second thing, *definitely* send him to sick bay! He NEEDS to see a psychiatrist RIGHT NOW or you could have a suicide situation forming itself.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 5:33 AM

2016-10-25T05:33:31-04:00

I as a First Sergeant had people like that & all I did was give him an initial talk to see what was going on. Even talked with their wives, Plt Sgts. Squad leaders. When all that failed I began the paper work for General discharge, '... Fails to preform duties required by rank...', Under less than honorable Conditions ... Sometimes that would scare the living crap out of some people & their attitude would change. Then again sometimes it wouldn't. A lot of those guys had re-enlisted within the past year or so. That under less than Honorable they would lose many of their benefits also...
I would inform them that their enlistment bonus would be with drawn, man o man their wives would come unglued... If that didn't do it , continue the discharge paper work. If you don't want to be there the command doesn't need the headache who is /can effect the morale of an entire unit...

Response by SPC Greg K. made Oct 25 at 2016 7:22 AM

2016-10-25T07:22:52-04:00

He volunteered, he took the oath, no one forced him to enlist....now he thinks he can just quit? He made a commitment to the team, the platoon, the United States. Suck it up Cupcake, be an adult and finish what you started.

Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: "Private Pyle has dishonored himself and dishonored the platoon. I have tried to help him. But I have failed. I have failed because YOU have not helped me. YOU people have not given Private Pyle the proper motivation! So, from now on, whenever Private Pyle fucks up, I will not punish him! I will punish all of YOU! And the way I see it ladies, you owe me for ONE JELLY DOUGHNUT! NOW GET ON YOUR FACES! "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsUmP1PGBGE

Full Metal Jacket - Pyle's beating

Pvt Pyle, the poor fat creature gets beaten with soap

Response by CPL Kevin Wheeler made Oct 25 at 2016 7:42 AM

2016-10-25T07:42:38-04:00

I would make sure that he got out and probly for mal instead of ht & wt .

Response by Lt Col Kathleen Murphy made Oct 25 at 2016 8:14 AM

2016-10-25T08:14:19-04:00

What kind of DD214 does he get? How will this look on a resume when he goes looking for a civilian job? What will this do to his health? This is an attitude problem, yes, but also a self-worth issue. Are there other issues in his life that are impacting his self esteem? Is there any other way for him to separate that doesn't have ramifications for his health and personal life down the line? Just a woman's view...consider the person as well as the Army.

Response by 1stSgt Troy Seals made Oct 25 at 2016 8:15 AM

2016-10-25T08:15:51-04:00

Kinda like female soldiers getting pregnant the day after deployment date is announced.

Response by SSgt Bruce Wood made Oct 25 at 2016 8:17 AM

2016-10-25T08:17:05-04:00

When I was stationed in Hawaii with MAG 15 I was an E-6 Staff Sargent I was S-3 Chief (training) one of my duties was to monitor the weight control program. I had a E-8 Gunnery Sargent who was at about 19 years in the Marine corps. He was on the weight control program and was assigned to remedial PT 2 times a day. Instead of losing he was gaining nd his body fa was increasing. He had been on the program several times over the years and I continually talked to him trying to get him to lose the weight. He would after finishing his second PT of the day would proceed to the SNCO club and start putting the beer away. He had been counseled by the Sargent Major the XO and the CO and he just kept gaining weight. He had about 6 months left before retirement and he had the attitude that nothing would happen before he retired if he didn't and he was will to ride along and run the clock out till he retired. The program doesn't work that way and at about 4 months before his retirement he was being processed for a administrative discharge for failure to comply with the weight control program. He then wanted to lose weight and comply with the program. It was then to late and he lost his retirement and everything. That was sad and I think that got to me more than anything I had to do while I was in. The programs are established for a reason . In the case of this individual there should be some kind of consequence before he is discharged. He can be charge with failure to comply with the weight control program and there is other forms of punishment that can be applied. If he had re-enlisted and got a bonus he can be forced to pay it back. There has to be a consequence or others will follow his example. I know back in the day the easies way for and individual to get out early was to claim they were gay, and that loop hole has been closed. The weight control program though is a hard program to get booted out because all the I's have to be dotted and the T's have to be crossed and the orders are explicit on what has to be done. If it is not exactly right then you have to start the program over with them. I forget what the length of time they were allowed but seems like they had 90 day and they could get a couple extensions on that. In any case there have to be consequences before they are eventually discharged.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 8:18 AM

2016-10-25T08:18:51-04:00

Help him get out of the Army as quickly as possible before he infects everyone else in the unit with his poor attitude.

Response by PO1 Roger Waddle made Oct 25 at 2016 8:18 AM

2016-10-25T08:18:49-04:00

If he could not be turned around , boot him but I would try to to get to the root of his issues first

Response by FN Charlie Spivey made Oct 25 at 2016 8:31 AM

2016-10-25T08:31:18-04:00

To my of thinking that is just plain wrong, but then Again, I was a Coastie. I know that after I did a tour in Vietnam, I decided I had had enough and would just just tough it out until my time was up and not reup. Letting yourself go to get out is just plain wrong. Back in my day, I don't think the PT standards were as they are today. There were a lot of E-7's that looked like their PT was done at the CPO club lifting glasses. I think there is a chargable thing in letting yourself go and getting overweight and out of shape intentionally. I also know that with all the Deployments into a CZ it can take a toll, and then add to the involuntary extensions of enlistment, just adds to the problem. I am a little surprised that the retention rate is what it is. Guess they saw it as a last option. Not good. Incidently, two weeks after I got out, I was back in the Army Recruiting office talking to them ( had two Uncles that retired Army ). That was as far as I got as Vietnam was still nice and hot.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 8:35 AM

2016-10-25T08:35:58-04:00

I would call that malingering...and that is a crime in the military. Any soldier who decides they are going to fail their way out of the army should be severely punished and in a way that leaves no doubt what they were punished for.

Response by CPL Phillip Hubbard made Oct 25 at 2016 8:58 AM

2016-10-25T08:58:51-04:00

He has already stated he's doing this on purpose - that would be considered Dereliction of Duty and boot his ass out. As an Officer with this information you have a duty to see him on his way. case closed...

Response by LTC Bob Kiser made Oct 25 at 2016 9:17 AM

2016-10-25T09:17:55-04:00

I had this situation as an AVIM Commander when two of my Apache Longbow Armament technicians wanted to get out in order to work for a contractor (probably right back in my hangar). I refused to flag them and assigned additional PT every day after work.....profile?....I had them watch PT.......this went on for about 6-8 months and eventually they gave up........every situation is different......you have to consider the individual involved....maybe its better to send him on his way. In my case, these two were my only armament techs who could work on the new Apache radar and owed the Army 5 years........I acted in the best interest of the Army.

Response by LTC Mark Beattie made Oct 25 at 2016 9:17 AM

2016-10-25T09:17:28-04:00

I would give him what he wanted, out of the Army under the least desirable administrative chapter possible. Since he's willfully opting to disregard his contractual obligations, I would seek to eliminate any possibility of military benefits.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 9:21 AM

2016-10-25T09:21:17-04:00

Bye, Felicia...

Response by 1SG Rudolph Watt made Oct 25 at 2016 9:55 AM

2016-10-25T09:55:07-04:00

I have this situation come before me as a 1st SGT, soldier should be counseled and let them know the ramifications of his actions and that it will follow him/her through out their future, and assist them with which ever rout they decide to take

Response by LCDR Larry Franco made Oct 25 at 2016 9:57 AM

2016-10-25T09:57:47-04:00

I would tell my troop that it was both lazy and disgraceful to opt out of the service in this manner. His comrades deserved that he prepare himself and put in the work as they do for him. Then I would dismiss him and say nothing more, letting him ponder over what I might do. In reality, I would do nothing more than observe him. If he turned to and stepped up his PT, I would make sure he knew I was happy with him. If not, the evaluation system would weed him out, just as it should.

Response by LCpl Paul Messer made Oct 25 at 2016 10:07 AM

2016-10-25T10:07:35-04:00

When I was in a Marine I knew got a tattoo on his neck to purposely to attempt tp get kicked out. Well that didn't work all they did was bust him down to private and make him finish his enlistment.

Response by Cpl Dr Ronnie Manns made Oct 25 at 2016 10:19 AM

2016-10-25T10:19:08-04:00

A request like that needs to be respected and honored simply because this person will probably end of getting others killed or wounded. Fighting to keep someone in who do not wish to be makes no sense if the entire unit and service in whole loses.

Response by LCpl Jason Ryan made Oct 25 at 2016 10:35 AM

2016-10-25T10:35:48-04:00

I would make it as painful as possible and drag out the process so they got out maybe maybe 2 weeks early.

Response by SSG Patrick Michael made Oct 25 at 2016 10:47 AM

2016-10-25T10:47:07-04:00

Can't say how the Army feels about this now, but when I was looking for an incentive to reenlist '92-'93 timeframe, the Army was PAYING profiles, overweight, and PT failures to leave the Army. Retention bonuses on the other hand were scarce. That said, I'd counsel as to consequences, and begin the process.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 11:01 AM

2016-10-25T11:01:34-04:00

Bust him down to E-1. Chapter him out RE4. Dishonorable Discharge. No med board. No VA. No education. NOTHING

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 11:06 AM

2016-10-25T11:06:23-04:00

Gotta wonder about the mentality behind the actions of the Soldier. Why do they not want to serve anymore? Hence the decision on their part to just say to hell with it and quit without going the UCMJ route. Have seen this happen a few times over the course of my career. Something is going on in that troops head that may not be open for the world to see. The whole "get them out and be gone with them" is the easy route to go when dealing with Soldiers who present themselves a s a problem child, so to speak. The harder route is seeing if there is something that is causing the troop to just give it all up and to try and reverse it if the troop has some promise. I learned the hard way that as much as a leader wants to be firm, hard and resolute, if they stop being human than they stop being able to relate to the human condition and sometimes it is the ear to bend that makes the difference than if the boot had been applied to the butt.

Response by SSG Ken Gilder made Oct 25 at 2016 11:20 AM

2016-10-25T11:20:06-04:00

It's hard to motivate someone who does not want to be motivated. If he is a liability to the unit and unit morale, and does not want to be there, I'd initiate paperwork to administratively discharge him. The unit would probably be better off without him.

Response by CPT David Landrum made Oct 25 at 2016 11:53 AM

2016-10-25T11:53:09-04:00

I had an Army doctor tell me this when I was an LT in Korea. He had gotten all his student debt paid off and was going to get himself booted. Basically, he was not allowed to get promoted but the Army was going to keep him around as long as needed to get their investment back. Not the same as a regular soldier.

Response by SFC Cesar Valdez Jr made Oct 25 at 2016 11:57 AM

2016-10-25T11:57:49-04:00

If the chain of command was not able to keep the soldier motivated, the soldier in question did not want to be motivated. Better spend time and energy on the individuals that seek assistance to stay in the service rather than waste valuable time and resources on this lost cause.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 12:04 PM

2016-10-25T12:04:46-04:00

Let him dig his own grave. Probably the quickest way out for him, and it would be a honorable discharge. Win win.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 12:11 PM

2016-10-25T12:11:40-04:00

I had a Soldier that did something similar (APFT failure). He is very smart and articulate. When I asked him why he was doing this, he laid it all out very intelligently, the end result being that he no longer believed in what the Army and US Government stood for and didn't want any part of it.

The ironic thing is that, despite failing every APFT that he was given, JAG would kick back the company's Involuntary Separation paperwork for one thing or another. One of the reasons was that he was on a temporary profile when he took an APFT. He had to write a memo to JAG waiving his temp profile so his separation could continue to be processed.

At the end of the process, he got an Honorable discharge because anything less than that must be accompanied with proven evidence of misconduct. Since there was nothing more than the normal counselings for failing APFTs, there was nothing substantiating anything less than an Honorable.

Response by CAPT Dave Woodard made Oct 25 at 2016 12:29 PM

2016-10-25T12:29:23-04:00

Expedite the process as much as possible.

Response by MAJ Charles Cozzens made Oct 25 at 2016 12:43 PM

2016-10-25T12:43:29-04:00

Extra PT( clerks pt test,old school) training that is documented. We are going to see if the e-4 is committed to his oath.

Response by MAJ Felix Castro made Oct 25 at 2016 12:46 PM

2016-10-25T12:46:44-04:00

First and foremost try to understand his reason to want out,second treat him with dignity as his issue is performance due to failure to follow standards for Army position, not bad individual what a guidance provided by LTG Akerman when I was a company commander.

Response by PO1 Jack Howell made Oct 25 at 2016 1:33 PM

2016-10-25T13:33:10-04:00

Tell him, 'Don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split you' and then walk away. Don't waste your time trying to help someone that doesn't want to help himself. The only time you'll waste is on the separation paperwork.

Response by SrA Ralph Gilbert made Oct 25 at 2016 1:57 PM

2016-10-25T13:57:03-04:00

Cpt
A: What was his performance reports like?
B : What was his job/skill performance like ?
C; If those numbers were right ,time to for the two of you to go somewhere and have a long talk to find what is the real problem
1; too much time TDY to war zones
2; Wife/gf rideing him about being gone, no money
3; shop/workgroup chife treating as a rented mule
4; higher Hq Fubaring the mission
Once you have the answer then you can work on fixing the troop

Response by PO1 Roger Waddle made Oct 25 at 2016 2:13 PM

2016-10-25T14:13:22-04:00

My first thought on this post was if one of my guys talked to the xo without talking about his desires to me first he would wish he had never joined HOWEVER I would have offered the xo a cup of coffee to leave my work center and allow me to handle the guys then I would have got to the root of the problem before making any decisions ,NO ONE GETS LEFT BEHIND EVEN THE FAT KIDS.

Response by SGT Jason Mouret made Oct 25 at 2016 2:21 PM

2016-10-25T14:21:38-04:00

I have to say, this upsets me. I myself did everything possible to stay in. I was Retired due to injuries in Combat. I never was able to get back in shape to keep my job. This kid has the opportunity to fulfill his Enlightenment till the last day, and be able to look bake and say he served with Honor. No the Army is not for everyone but you must fulfill your contract.

Response by PO1 Gregg Mundy made Oct 25 at 2016 2:42 PM

2016-10-25T14:42:24-04:00

You shouldn't have ever wasted your and the Army's time. Have a good time in the civilian world!

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 3:14 PM

2016-10-25T15:14:21-04:00

Send to your senior SNCO for an attitude adjustment, assign to the "Fat Body" platoon, NJP.

Response by SSG Mike Simpson made Oct 25 at 2016 4:01 PM

2016-10-25T16:01:16-04:00

I was the opposite case when I was in the service. After my Army service I went back to Texas to complete my college education. While attending University of Texas at El Paso, I was approached by AF ROTC; they waived me attending the Advanced Camp and I compressed the upper two years of my training in one school year. Upon graduation I was commissioned as a 2nd Lt and assigned to Tinker AFB, OK working on the E-3A AWACS as a software engineer.

A back injury while in the Army (broke my back in 2 places on a parachute jump) started acting up and I wasn't able to keep up with my physical conditioning. This continued for the next 6 years until 1990 when I was assigned to Officer Training School to work in the computer center. I'm now on the weight management program and OTS had a policy that you had to be 10% under your max weight to not be on the program.

I was on a medical profile for no running/standing/sitting/walking for extended periods. I'm taking all sorts of opiate pain killers and, being single, had to be hospitalized or present for duty. I'm driving to work each day bombed out of my mind. The chief orthopedic surgeon at Wilford Hall refused to operate saying I only had a 50% chance of surviving the surgery. Finally, late in 1992 word came down that OTS was being relocated to Maxwell AFB, AL (Air University). As I was on the weight management program, I would not be able to make the move to Maxwell, nor could I be reassigned to a unit at Lackland AFB. so with 18 1/2 years total time I separated under the VSP program. I received a sizable separation bonus (O-3E over 4) which the VA withheld my disability payments until the government recouped the money paid to me. I finally started receiving my payments in August when I went up to 80% disabled.

I love my job and I loved serving my country, so I have no sympathy for this dirtbag. I say "Get rid of him now and bring a deserving young troop up in his place".

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 4:31 PM

2016-10-25T16:31:26-04:00

Ok...several things come into play...I have rarely if ever seen a Soldier this big (who is clearly obese with a BMI over 35+) in the RA, this Soldier would be a liability to his team mates...when put into a stress situation this Soldier could have a heart attack, diabetes, high blood pressure, thyroid issues maybe but unlikely, high cholestrol etc etc...So being faced with this...from the regulation the Soldier goes to a Nutritionist, gets tested for Thyroid Problems, and his medical record is screened by a physician...Then he is put into the Unit Rmedial PT if medically cleared and is on Weight Control...the regulation states that the Soldier must make a 3-8 pound reduction in weight loss every month, more is ok, less is not if you fail 2 months in a row...the Command can separate you under Chapter 18...I have had Officers and Enlisted personnel on this program, however; In my travels, generally speaking, the Enlisted Guys and Gals don't mess around... their NCO's get them to remidial and are on there way...many make progress and are allowed continued service as long as they are making progress however; they are flagged for PT and or weight until they pass...

The really bad part of this is persennel actions are flagged AND if you are Enlisted in Promotable Status they lose the promotable status and are taken off the list...it is the one thing I hated doing as a Commander...for Officers its a bit different...Officers under obligation (let's say a 4 year Obligation) like with ROTC or some other prgram...it is unlikely DA will let them go until the Obligation is satified...so it is possible for a 2LT to stay a 2LT the whole 4 years...The AMEDD, JAG Corps and Chaplain Corps do this quite often...There is a DoDI Regualtion that states if an Officer fails to promote to 1LT, they are booted; however; obligated officers are not going anywhere...

My biggest problem was with the Officers, many medical officers are under obligation...and sometimes they really don't care...yes this creates a double standard...but they are flagged and would be under the same restrictions as the enlisted folks for one BIG exception...If an Officer in Promotable Status fails PT or HT/WT their promotable status is not taken away..it is only delayed until the flags are lifted...

Ok....in the picture the Soldiers are from the 81st Armor Division (Reserve/Guard)...that Soldier would have been processed out in the Regular Army and/or Med Boarded if their was a medical connection...but it is likely that the unit may have had critical shortages before deployment...the bottom line; he is a liability to his teamates..that Soldier is at least +100 pounds...and should have been separated under normal circumstances, b/c weight gain of that magnitude takes time...so its likely that the AR Regulation may have some flexibility...personally I probably would have recommended the Rear Detachment and either make progress or process for Discharge.

Another possibility is the Soldier could have been in the IRR and recalled for Deployment, still the risk to teamates remains...

The tricky part is when a Soldier has a valid medical issue and has been on a PT or Weight Flag prior to the medical issue...this Soldier may never pass an APFT and is Flagged until they pass...If the medical issue is the causal effect of the PT Failure..then the Soldier would be Med Boarded and evaluated IAW the Medical Fitness Regualtion and either Returned to Duty or Medically Discharged...

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Oct 25 at 2016 5:03 PM

2016-10-25T17:03:25-04:00

If the SM has been in long enough (2-3 years?) and has performed well enough to make it to E-4 something happened to make him lose his mojo. High op-tempo, bad leadership, Jody is taking care of his sweetheart back home, something. Find the tipping point, concentrate on helping him get over it, and you may be able to bring him back from the dark side with some good old fashioned leadership along with a healthy PT program.
If not, explain that his attitude and demeanor in the coming months will make a big difference in how his life will be lived. If he wants to become a cancer to the unit morale it will be dealt with swiftly and severly. If he is intentionally becoming obese to expedite his end of service he doesn't deserve the rank he is wearing. Liberty is optional. If his waist line is increasing, the tailor shop will be accepting a large portion of his money to ensure uniforms still fit.
Make him choose between sucking it up for however longer he has until EAS/ETS and a miserable existence for almost the same amount of time. That may be all the motivation needed.

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Oct 25 at 2016 5:39 PM

2016-10-25T17:39:20-04:00

I would have given him his request as soon as possible and sent him back to civilian life to see how his bad attitude went over on the outside. Good luck in finding stoop labor employment. With a BA and his other physical ailments, probably no one would hire him in the first place. It would be noble and worthy to 'save' him by exercising yr leadership skills and training to help him turn around and become a model soldier. If that happens, congratulations and job well done. More likely a person would waste a lot of time on this SM and have nothing to show for it except an expedited early discharge.

Response by SSG Wayne Wood made Oct 25 at 2016 6:57 PM

2016-10-25T18:57:00-04:00

Let the guy screw himself. When I was a young troop in Germany in the 70s right after the Vietnam War and drugs were an EPIDEMIC problem the Army instituted a well-meaning, but poorly thought-out policy of giving guys with a drug problem honorable discharges under (then) Chapter 16 - after they failed the drug-rehab program. I got stuck as a PFC as my battery training NCO (long story) and part of my duties was running the DAES program. I don't know how many guys I had come through who intentionally tested positive on random drug urinalysis testing (I had five major areas of responsibility in my unit in Germany - besides my job as a surveyor but I was known as the PEE Man...). After awhile, the first question I asked them when I gave them my briefing on what was going to be expected of them (this was after they spoke with the Battery Commander) was, "Do you really want help or are you just trying to get out of the Army?"

If a guy told me he was trying to get out of the Army I would tell him the risks of putting a king-sized monkey on his back for the rest of his life. After that, he was on his own - I wasn't going to waste time trying to help someone who didn't want it when there were guys I COULD help. I just resented there were ----heads who got out early and got much the same benefits I and others served honorably for. But I didn't make the rules. There were a couple times we DAES Clerks were asked and we were pretty much unanimous in our opinions - eventually, the Army changed its policy. For the good, I expect.

I didn't want losers in my Army who didn't want to be there - particularly guys with a habit who were unreliable at the best of times. I have mixed feelings about the draft and don't know it's a bad idea, but we have an all-volunteer Army for a reason.

I have opinions about the weight control program and will discuss the reasons below - but when a guy comes up to you and tells you what he's about doing I have no sympathy. Get him out and if possible, get him out quickly and make sure he doesn't reap the rewards of those who fulfill their commitment and serve their time honorably. JMO.

As far as height-weight control - I know from experience sometimes guys can't help it. I got my bell rang on JTX Gallant Eagle 82 (was declared dead three times) and started gaining weight which eventually led to my facing discharge under AR 600-9 in spite of what was considered a pretty good career. It was only by a hair an alert doctor caught me before I was gone and the tests were run that linked my weight gain to the TBI I received five years earlier at Gallant Eagle 82. I was discharged with disability and deal with the residuals today. I suspect there are a lot of guys who got their bells rung by IEDs suffering similar TBI to what I received who are catching grief for weight gain and other physical problems with PT due to loss of stamina - check the hypothalamus in your primitive brain - that's what my problem was/is. All it takes is an insulin shock test to prove it.

I try to get that in whenever I can because if I can help one guy and prevent him from going through what I went through it was worth it.

Response by Cpl Henry Lamb Jr. made Oct 25 at 2016 7:01 PM

2016-10-25T19:01:09-04:00

I would find out what the real or underlying issue is and come up with a contingency plan. Remedial PT. Order a medical and Psychological evaluation. Once we get to the bottom of that I would devise a remedial plan. Once I've exhausted all options it would be time to consider action under the UCMJ.

Response by SGT Tim Fridley made Oct 25 at 2016 7:58 PM

2016-10-25T19:58:43-04:00

I would hope as an XO that you informed his NCO chain so they could take the proper action

Response by PO1 Lester Frilling made Oct 25 at 2016 8:16 PM

2016-10-25T20:16:49-04:00

Put him in the Brig let him think about it !

Response by SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint made Oct 25 at 2016 8:31 PM

2016-10-25T20:31:43-04:00

Remind him that he is a waste of taxpayer dollars. I wish he would have to pay back his training. The sad part is he did not learn anything from the military training!

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 9:13 PM

2016-10-25T21:13:16-04:00

Make sure he's not going to change. If there's a spark left then work with him. If not then tell him to eat up and make sure he knows he'll leave service as Private, with RE/SEPS code that ensured he never comes back and will not have discharge allowing GI Bill or any other bennies. Turn your attention to those willing to contribute to the unit and let him do his thing. Document the process and ensure what you told him was fulfilled until he's gone. Too many good things you can do to better lead the unit and members rather than wasting time on a lost cause. He may reconsider and if so then react accordingly, but if not just accept it. Nothing personal, just business.

Response by SGT William Peterson made Oct 25 at 2016 9:48 PM

2016-10-25T21:48:19-04:00

Oh man why. Your young you think 2 to 3 years is so long. Its not. Finish your time. Get an honorable discharge. Life afterward will be so much better. I thought i hated the Army for the first year and a half. Then i realized why i didnt want to make a career out of ut it was ok. Good people and i learned valuable life lessons. I urge you to rethink this. Life is long and a mistake at your age could affect your long term chances.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 10:24 PM

2016-10-25T22:24:40-04:00

An Apft failure is a much quicker way to remove someone. Also a lot less paperwork. The memos required for Army Body Composting Program are rediculous.

Response by SGT Timothy Stuart made Oct 25 at 2016 10:33 PM

2016-10-25T22:33:13-04:00

First try to get to the root cause of his/her issue with being in the service. If that fails, council the service member on height/weight standards. Along with a plan covering how to get within standards. Also, would cover malingering and conduct unbecoming. Purposely failing to meet standards fall into both in my book.

Response by SGT Stanley Bass made Oct 25 at 2016 10:55 PM

2016-10-25T22:55:21-04:00

After reading some I will respond this way. I would have spoken with him about the ramifications of a dishonorable or other than honorable that he would get for being over weight. I personally had eye problems and was on a breathing profile while on active duty, not once but twice. The first time my CO got the dr to lift my profile and gave me a pt test in hopes I would fail so he could chapter me out. I passed, would not have mattered there was nothing he could have done anyway. I woulda Went to the IG. 2nd-5th time I had surgery and was on anabolic steroids. I was going through family issues also. Woke up one day and said F** it I am done. But to go out and decide to get chaptered out is not the approach one should take, there are other ways of expressing that you are done and getting out early. The soldier needs help and I would agree with SSG Rick Robbins, a medical eval and medical hold company. Even though he is on profile, there are several ways and methods to not violate that profile and get counselling and get back into shape. The SM needs all the help he can get when in times of need. Be it anger, frustration, disappointment, depression. Help is available and the SM should be steared that way

Response by SGT Chris Padgett made Oct 26 at 2016 12:13 AM

2016-10-26T00:13:49-04:00

I'm going to respond only because I was there once. I was to the point were poison leadership and family issues had me ready to say "to hell with it." I would fall out of runs, became a sick call regular, and in general let myself go to hell. I was done with the Army and I only wanted to be somewhere else. My leadership was nothing but poison from the ground up. Rather than trying to address and help with my issues, my leadership compounded the problem by piling on even more stress. I'm not going to get into what started my decent, but it started when a member of my leadership decided throw me under the bus to save his own butt. He did it because of the same poison leadership, so I can't really blame him.
Leaders need to step back, take a good look at themselves and if they don't see a problem, then they are the problem.
To these people saying "He needs to tow the line or UCMJ action!", that is poison leadership.
This solider came to you, told you his plan. He's asking for help. He's a member of the mafia, so it isn't going to be easy for you. He's knows enough to play the game, he just doesn't know all the moves yet. If he's married, start there.
My situation turned out well for me, I was fortunate that I had a 1SG I could talk to and explain the problem, who was interested in hearing the problem and genuinely wanted to help. The thing is, that 1SG wasn't my 1SG. I finished up my contract and 10 years more.
I'm out now, been out for awhile. I can approach this from a very non military point of view The very best advice I can give that solider is this,
Tough it out, civilian life isn't exactly what he remembers it. An honorable discharge equals free health care, home loans, GI Bill, VR&E, as well other benefits. All of which are impossible to obtain with a dishonorable discharge. I've had considerably more need to produce a DD214 than my degree. These things seem trivial, but the cost does add up. He won't see it now, but in 5 years, he'll be glad he did. As a OIF veteran, he's going to need the VA for healthcare, trust me!
Sir, my advice to you is this, attempt to get to the bottom of the problem and help. You're obviously concerned or you wouldn't have posted. Do what you can, but remember you have a battery full of other soldiers that have "bumps and bruises" also. If the solider just isn't receptive, then cut your loss. No point in holding him, get him off your TO&E and let him learn one of lifes hard lessons.

Now that you've read mine and others assessment, how did you handle the situation?

Response by PO1 John East made Oct 26 at 2016 1:09 AM

2016-10-26T01:09:01-04:00

I was big my whole career, but I never quit, I loved PT but couldn't run do to an accident so I opted to swim it and it pissed off the E-8 in charge because except for the measurements part I score an excellent on the actual test, he would then try and make me run everyday which with minimal cartilage in my hip it just wasn't going to happen. So before he could try stuff to boot me I took Clinton's 15 year retirement so I retired 4 years early I wish I had stayed just to mess with him though!

But to address the question I would put him on mandatory PT as extra duty everyday at 1800 or 1900 hundred hours, I'm sure he would shape up, the swimming pool can be used greatly

Response by SPC David Young made Oct 26 at 2016 1:29 AM

2016-10-26T01:29:05-04:00

If he had his heart set on getting out that badly, why didn't he just request a chapter and give his reasons? Something could have been worked out and it would have been the best thing for the soldier, the unit and the Army. I've read most of the comments and I'm not sure how I would have handled it. I will say but I think the soldier in question handled it the wrong way.

Response by Capt Michael Greene made Oct 26 at 2016 5:01 AM

2016-10-26T05:01:25-04:00

Drill down to find the underlying reason. Could be a family emergency that we can help with. Could be an emotional problem that mental health or the chaplain can help with.

But if he simply is tired of the service, I would not be sympathetic.

First, I would ask him to consider what would be his mother and father's reaction to the fact that he can't hack it in the service? He's a coward that won't stick it out with the rest of his unit that relies on him. Millions of men have served honorably, so what makes him such a pathetic exception?

His plan is to shirk his duty, malinger from doctor's orders, and disobey the commander's written order to cooperate with the weight-loss program. So I would send him to the shrink, the chaplain, and the law office. Document it. Press the charges. Graduate the punishments. If he doesn't improve then use him as an example to deter others. We must show that the command will not tolerate shirking, malingering cowards who disobey orders.

Response by Sgt Sal Hirto made Oct 26 at 2016 7:27 AM

2016-10-26T07:27:21-04:00

lack of integrity

Response by SSG Donald Duplessis made Oct 26 at 2016 7:49 AM

2016-10-26T07:49:00-04:00

Your hands are tied. You must abide by the regulation. You can counsel till the cows come home and offer remedial training till the soldier is blue in the face, but in the end, he's made his bed.

Response by Jessie R. Smith Jr. made Oct 26 at 2016 8:21 AM

2016-10-26T08:21:56-04:00

That is a horrible attitude. Maybe he needs to be transferred to a desert area so he can sweat it off and maybe change it. He is doing himself no favors. I constantly fought weight while working for the Bureau of Prisons and had a bad knee in my last year. My knee gave out in an accident after 24 years. I know this guy hasn't got 24 years left, he needs to stick it out.

Response by Lt Col Phil Henning made Oct 26 at 2016 8:30 AM

2016-10-26T08:30:11-04:00

He didn't get that way overnight so first line supervision let it creep up. You can offer him a chance to see diet specialist and non impact exercise program if he's motivated to lose weight and at least try. Otherwise if he purposely avoids both you have the discharge route via the Commander. You might get a General under Honorable if he does not execute the plan you set out for him w/the doctors. But still gets VA etc and DD 214 I think reflects that class of discharge.

Response by Maj Ken Brown made Oct 26 at 2016 9:39 AM

2016-10-26T09:39:49-04:00

Arrange for remedial PT and make it a mandatory formation; there must be others in the same situation and with the same attitudes.

Response by SPC Tommy Dean made Oct 26 at 2016 9:49 AM

2016-10-26T09:49:21-04:00

Fix him a big pan of Ex-lax brownies as a going away present and send him packing. If he's unwilling to fulfill his commitment to his country and to himself as a man, there should be no VA benefits awaiting him upon his return to civilian life.

Response by PO1 Milton Wiseman made Oct 26 at 2016 12:09 PM

2016-10-26T12:09:14-04:00

Here we go, I spent 3 years in the US Army as a tanker., walking was never my thing. That being said, I never failed a PT test. We had real PT every morning and we did it in boots and trousers not sneakers and cute PT gear. My sweet lord, we ran and ran. Basic at Ft. Knox was no joke either, PT was a motivation tool used by our Drill Sergeant and he was a 11B so he was not very fond of tankers. This put us in the mindset of, well this is the Army and we were use to it. I never sweated a PT test because I was always from the beginning prepared. Physical fitness is not what it used to be and it is a mindset. AFPT needs to be re examined and integrated into the daily routine along with organized sports, contact sports, field craft. It is a part of our service, a requirement that needs to be used to the betterment of every service member

Response by SGT Craig Northacker made Oct 26 at 2016 12:38 PM

2016-10-26T12:38:38-04:00

I was in basic as the platoon guide, and one of men came up to me with the same type of attitude, which the DI's told me to ignore. He then told me he was going to drop out of one of our many marches to the ranges and disappear. My DI told me to tell him he could do that, but he would have to do it with the 2 broken legs he would sustain in doing so. He kept up for some reason after that...

Response by SPC Jim Johnson made Oct 26 at 2016 1:21 PM

2016-10-26T13:21:39-04:00

I believe the soldier needed time and counseling to see what were the underlying issues. Before I took any action.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2016 11:47 PM

2016-10-26T23:47:26-04:00

Have a nice day? You'll be missed? Bye Felicia? If they don't want to be there, you don't want them there.

Response by SFC Craig Starr made Oct 27 at 2016 2:42 AM

2016-10-27T02:42:58-04:00

As a leader, I have had good soldiers get low, even depressed over constant struggles with health related to PT and weight. The negative attention that singles out a soldier over these shortcoming, especially in today's youth often drive a feeling of hopelessness for success. While standards are standards it's important to ensure soldiers are counselled on not only thier shortcomings but their successes and positive contributions to the team.

Not just counseling in writing, but verbal praise and encouragement of thier value.

Showing proactive concern for why they have been on a profile for so long beyond and looking into thier "treatment plan" with your command weights value as well. I had a soldier transferred to me that over a 3 year period was on and off profile for the same ailment for all but 2 months of his enlistment. The root problem, new primary care that started over every time from the beginning. The soldier had given up. I took his history to our command. My commander made a phone call to the brigade Sergion on the soldiers behalf. In less than 60 days the soldier had a needed surgery and his motivation was ignited. He requested to stay on remedial PT through his post surgery physical Theropy and when he came off was in the 270 club. A 180 from the soldier that "just wanted out" 6 months before. Something others never thought possible

If I would have let him continue his path, he would have been out of the army, dealing with a life long lasting ailment induces by the service reeling in VA to fix him. Another broken statistic.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2016 4:38 AM

2016-10-27T04:38:50-04:00

Pillsbury Doe Boy. A disgrace. I am 60 and look better than that.. CPT Aaron Kletzing

Response by CAPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2016 6:55 AM

2016-10-27T06:55:53-04:00

Charge him with malingering and move on. If he wants to leave the military, help him out, quickly (i.e. ADSEP with OTH).

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Oct 27 at 2016 8:53 AM

2016-10-27T08:53:01-04:00

Letter of counseling for first failure to met standards to document the intent and the root cause and see if we can fix it. If he still wants out then I would elevate it to the next level. I would charge him with dereliction of duty and failure to obey lawful orders and regulations...ESPECIALLY if he told me he was doing it on purpose...that is willfully going against regs and orders. Once he was getting separated, I would ensure his DD 214 had the proper codes for no possible way to reenlist. Send him on his way. I you moddycoddle him others will see it and then you have a disease spreading through your ranks that you will never recover from. get rid of him, shake the dust off your boots and move on to taking care of the ones that want to be there...don't have enough time to babysit a grown man.

Response by SSG Gregg Mourizen made Oct 27 at 2016 10:30 AM

2016-10-27T10:30:50-04:00

I think the real question to ask,
Is this a soldier worth keeping. I have known many good soldiers, who just could not keep the weight off.
If this is a good soldier, then put in the effort to motivate him and change his mind.
Get to the root of the problem. It is clear there are other issues at hand. Mass exodus, Low morale, Injuries. There are obvious signs that there is more going on here.
This kind of problem is a flag to more serious problems. As a leader, you might want to get in there and find out.
You can always point out the cost (Bonus repayment, Flag to reenlistment, GI bill etc) of getting out that way. An of course you can Article 15 or court Marshal for intentionally doing it, but then you have to prove that it is intentional, vs the frustration of not being able to lose weight.
If not, there are ways to process him out faster, so you can open that slot up for a new solder.

Good luck, either way.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2016 8:10 AM

2016-10-28T08:10:05-04:00

Encourage his success - in the civilian world.

Response by CPO Dave Homan made Oct 28 at 2016 3:04 PM

2016-10-28T15:04:51-04:00

Bounced him.

Response by TSgt George Rodriguez made Oct 31 at 2016 10:14 AM

2016-10-31T10:14:43-04:00

Actions depend upon if he is an excellent soldier other then the weight problem or he is a screw up. If he is a screw up then disobedient of a direct order. Article 15, loss of pay demotion in rank and if it continues after that other then honorable discharge or BCG. If he is a good troop and does his job well, then try and find out what his major problem is by sending him to counseling or to the chaplain. If he gets his head together then you have saved the military a good troop. If not and he has personnel problems that no one can help him with then release him General discharge under honorable conditions.

Response by SPC Robin Price-Dirks made Oct 31 at 2016 12:10 PM

2016-10-31T12:10:38-04:00

I had orders to go to Heidelberg and was a few days (30) away from re-enlisting, I was also 20 days from my birthday when I could weigh 2 more pounds. I was placed on the fat boy program and forced out because no positive action could be accepted while on fat boy. No re-enlistment, no pcs, no extension! I was on career status and this yo-yo was ruining my career and the rules sucked. 20 days for 2 pounds. I had been on a diet of less than 500 calories for so long that it was ridiculous and couldn't lose 2 pounds. There has to be a middle ground somewhere.........

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2017 2:53 AM

2017-01-19T02:53:17-05:00

Kick'em out ASAP! Bad moral for the whole squad, platoon, company or battery or squadron. At least give'em a general discharge so that he or she can get some or limited benefits out of it.

Response by SGT Gilbert Flores made Oct 1 at 2017 9:41 PM

2017-10-01T21:41:23-04:00

I served as a unit reenlistment NCO from 1991-1995...and my MOS was that of a 88M. I can tell you that this person would have been counseled by the chain of command. If he failed is weight test then the commander could use the bar to reenlistment is the administrative tool.

Once the bar has been signed by the approving commander a copy is then placed in his 201 file. The soldier then has two reviews to get the bar removed...3rd and 6th month. During this six month time the soldier soldier may request voluntary separation from the Army...just stating that he or she can not over come the bar to reenlistment.

It was so easy to make this happen then to have someone to baby sit all the time...and yes I did process soldier's out of the Army. I also held the title as legal clerk for my unit and I was good at what I did for the commander.

Response by CPO Robert Henry made Oct 9 at 2017 11:20 AM

2017-10-09T11:20:34-04:00

Rivet gun to the lips. Long run chased by dogs. Repeat, then boot him out for underweight and unauthorized piercings.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 9 at 2017 12:45 PM

2017-10-09T12:45:14-04:00

Make his life a living he'll until he can go back and live back under the rock he came from!!!!

Response by SSgt Julius Bob Midgett made Oct 9 at 2017 12:58 PM

2017-10-09T12:58:18-04:00

I would have started a the process of a less than desirable discharge and put him in the fat boys platoon and made him have a physical by a competent physician then PT every day until discharge

Response by COL William Oseles made Oct 9 at 2017 1:22 PM

2017-10-09T13:22:46-04:00

The dirtball is deliberately violating his contract.
Kick him out under less than honorable conditions or Section 8.

Response by SSG Mark Matteson made Oct 9 at 2017 2:11 PM

2017-10-09T14:11:28-04:00

I would have sent him to a Medical Eval, physical, bloodwork, let the Doctors see if there is something Medically wrong with him. If it is all clear, Then I would motivate him with a full duty day until he left the service, providing he didnt have any Psychological issues either. Pt 7 days a week. O600 to 2200 everyday of the week.

Response by SPC Michael Bernard made Oct 9 at 2017 2:28 PM

2017-10-09T14:28:48-04:00

My brother did this shit when he was in the Navy. He regrets it completely.

Response by LCpl Douglas Landrith Jr made Oct 9 at 2017 2:52 PM

2017-10-09T14:52:58-04:00

Sounds like a case for some UCMJ and a bad conduct discharge. Mind you I would counsel the shit bird and make sure they know a BCD is coming their way and that they won't be just "getting out". Getting out will come with consequences that can affect their life once out.

You would have to process the charges quickly though before some of your more impressionable E-2's and E-3's get any ideas.

I mean the Big Chicken Dinner is not a Dead Duck Dinner but I don't think many places will hire you with one. No VA, no Fed jobs, no nothing and possible brig time.

Response by CAPT Dave Woodard made Oct 9 at 2017 4:58 PM

2017-10-09T16:58:50-04:00

Having been an XO - BCD, no tolerance. (of course this was the Marine Corps/Navy so a little different)

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 9 at 2017 11:37 PM

2017-10-09T23:37:50-04:00

he doesnt realize how hard to find a civilian job

Response by CPO Keith Morgan made Oct 10 at 2017 8:30 AM

2017-10-10T08:30:07-04:00

He's/she's dead weight. That individual has believe that they have some to contribute. If they're only purpose to is collect a paycheck, you don't need them. They need to find they're self worth and value first.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 10 at 2017 10:36 AM

2017-10-10T10:36:10-04:00

did he look into the pros and con jobs in the civilian world some of the places are not hiring I bet he didn't think about his health he can end up with diabetes, high blood pressure, cholesterol these are the serious issue at the end he will regret his decision

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 10 at 2017 10:51 AM

2017-10-10T10:51:01-04:00

so sir what was the out come

Response by SFC James William Bolt [ 40 Yards ] made Oct 10 at 2017 12:48 PM

2017-10-10T12:48:59-04:00

When most of your troops are draftee and have very little respect for lifers with NO CIVILLIAN OCCPATION . I let them know that this was my home and I would be their worst lifer and NCO because I live here and it was home and I was here 24 / 7 . They soon found out it was easer to make it their home to . Because a lifer and a NCO can be a pain in the butt when he rule the roost 24/ 7 and all their time rear end belongs to me a lifer and a NCO sign 40 yards

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2017 3:34 PM

2017-11-21T15:34:47-05:00

First, if he doesn't want to participate, forced participation could negatively affect the members of his unit and undermine morale. Standards must be upheld, so I would recommend discharge, but not an easy one. This member is malingering, and intentionally failing to meet standards. I would invoke every relevant UCMJ Article I could and recommend to my 1stSgt that charges be brought against this member for his dishonorable conduct.
Article 92 Failure to Obey Order or Regulation
Article 115 Malingering
Article 134 General Article
Burn his malingering tail

Response by CPL Douglas Chrysler made Nov 5 at 2018 11:22 AM

2018-11-05T11:22:53-05:00

I remember most draftees being more committed.

Response by Capt Robert Lee made Nov 5 at 2018 11:25 AM

2018-11-05T11:25:22-05:00

Immediately, if allowed, requested a general discharge for him.

Response by COL John McClellan made Nov 5 at 2018 11:30 AM

2018-11-05T11:30:22-05:00

Counseling; and - you might cite UCMJ... an intention plan to get "chaptered out" > that's insubordination, willful misconduct, etc. etc. so under those circumstances, you could let the Soldier know that the characterization of their discharge - as Honorable, or as General Discharge under Other Than Honorable Conditions... which is an available option in an Administration elimination from service - is within the power of the local chain-of-command and that is will matter later in their life... Meanwhile, they could also be charged w/article 92 I believe it is and be court-martialed, or, choose A15 and at FG level be reduced in rank to E-1 (from E-4) so now you are leaving as an E1, with a record and an OTH discharge... those are the "sticks"... the carrott would be > find out why, impress upon the Soldier their duty and commitment, look for other ways to dissuade the individual from that self-destructive path! Good Luck!!

Response by CPL Chris Palmberg made Nov 6 at 2018 11:06 AM

2018-11-06T11:06:59-05:00

A soldier with this attitude is a liability to his unit, particularly when in a high op-tempo unit. The options are equally parts bad and horrid. Give them what they want and it causes a trend that'll be hard to quell (our trend was back pain to get no PT profiles... in excess of 75 people 5 days a week on sick call until the PA added an "oil check" to rule out prostate problems to the screening protocols.) Leave them in place and they show others there aren't consequences for substandard performance.

I think my solution to this problem would have to be a little outside norms... short of like the kid that was picked up AWOL after 6 years (never reported after AIT) sent to his assigned company, 15'ed back to E1 and shipped to Anbar with the rest of us.
Transfer the soldier to the CSM's Logistics Detachment... run by the careerists approaching retirement...

Effectively the permanent party extra duty squad... oh, THEN flag them to prevent positive actions including intra-post transfers until the flag is lifted.

Response by SSG Jose M. Hernandezsanchez made Nov 6 at 2018 1:20 PM

2018-11-06T13:20:25-05:00

Well, I would have a real deep conversation with the Soldier because I have ran into individuals like this during my career when they have told me that they hate the Army. Ok, why? How many duty stations have you ever been? You say you hate the Army, but you have only been in one unit/duty station, that's a different story...every unit is different, different leadership, etc. Now, if the Army is not what you expected, that's another story, I get that. But I would at least try to convince him/her to finish the contract, then go about your business. Finish what you started, at least do that.

Response by 1SG Rob Smith made Nov 6 at 2018 1:27 PM

2018-11-06T13:27:20-05:00

First send him to the 1SG. This sir is NCO business. He needs to go the chaplin and find out the deeper problem. If he's determined to want out it needs to be addressed before it esclates into something else such as a mental health crisis

Response by PV2 Michael Whiddon made Nov 6 at 2018 3:42 PM

2018-11-06T15:42:36-05:00

If a soldier wants out. They should get out. No question. Why would the army even want a bunch of useless shitbags that don't want to be there?

Response by SrA John Monette made Nov 6 at 2018 3:50 PM

2018-11-06T15:50:18-05:00

find him the quickest route to a discharge, hopefully a dishonorable

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made Nov 6 at 2018 4:07 PM

2018-11-06T16:07:22-05:00

Help him achieve his goal.

Response by PFC Charles Sanders made Nov 6 at 2018 6:05 PM

2018-11-06T18:05:02-05:00

I’d find out what was really going on. It could be a higher paying job on the outside or a true case of “failure to adapt”. There could also be something going on at home that nobody knows about. You really don’t know how to proceed until you know what’s going on.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2018 6:38 PM

2018-11-06T18:38:23-05:00

I was at my lowest point in my life I had thought to do the same but my Chief reminded me of that contract I signed so I bucked up tightened my belt and finished my contract with honor

Response by CSM John Mead made Nov 7 at 2018 10:17 AM

2018-11-07T10:17:02-05:00

A soldier that has lost his motivation and desire to serve is a hard case to crack. In a period of high stress due to a quick training tempo or pending deployment, most units have no time to spend an exuberant amount of energy on such soldiers. Simply counsel him on his obligations and duty. If he can't see that, let him go. There are too many quality soldiers more deserving of your time.

Response by SFC William Stephens made Nov 7 at 2018 11:14 AM

2018-11-07T11:14:15-05:00

first what rank is this person or persons. Band them from MESS HALL, How did they ever get so big like this? really Beyond FLAGGED, NON COMBAT deplorable

Response by PVT Mark Zehner made Nov 7 at 2018 12:33 PM

2018-11-07T12:33:56-05:00

Its been a long time since I was in but say goodbye to that honorable discharge!

Response by SPC Justin Niles made Nov 7 at 2018 5:00 PM

2018-11-07T17:00:45-05:00

When I was in as a spec(e4) I injured my knee between deployments on a 12 mile ruck March after going to Iraq on an injured knee I was finally able to get an MRI done and it showed meniscus tears (yes plural) went to ortho the first surgeon said I was going to have surgery circled the damaged areas in my knee but he could not do the surgery he was pcsing. I was referred to another surgeon who flipped throw my films like a flip book and said that there was nothing wrong with my knee and to go back to work. (Background on my pt scores pre injury 11:00 2 mile 85 pushups 95 situps) got tired of being on profile tried to run my co ran with us and he saw my knee balloon up he ordered me to go sign out my med records and bring them to him I did he and the 1sgt discussed a course of action with each other and then with me which was for me to get out on the over weight program and then have the va fix my knee. I was ordered not to do pt. Then got out wish I had not taken that deal. But things happen for a reason.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 7 at 2018 6:32 PM

2018-11-07T18:32:52-05:00

Listen, let me give the non-kool-aid answer. The Army’s obsession with keeping soldiers that genuinely don’t have animosity towards the Army, but would like to move on with life will always baffles me. Basic Training doesn’t teach jack about the real Garrison culture of the Army and in war that’s going on 2 decades, you’ll never convince a logical person that there’s something vitally important going on anymore. To be blunt The UK and Israelis allow active duty members to essentially put in notice of separation, and both are competent and wonderful armies. This forced servitude is a base cause of high suicide rates, depression, alcoholism, and apathy in general. If you disagree you’re not paying attention. Give the kid a General Discharge, pro-rate his benefits to time served, and soldier the heck on with a new guy. A honorably discharged lower enlisted infantryman just solved this argument in a single post, when sitting Generals seem incapable of doing so while pumping resources into failing programs. I respect every man/woman in uniform that works hard and toughs it out but god damn it stop burning your personnel pool culturally into the ground bc you’re butt hurt just bc a significant minority wants to out. It’s the adult version of a tantrum.

Response by CWO4 William Johnson made Nov 7 at 2018 8:16 PM

2018-11-07T20:16:40-05:00

If he's that determined to quit he becomes a detriment to his unit. You waste your time trying to help someone that doesn't want it. Get rid of him most expeditiously.

Response by A1C Leland Kowal made Nov 7 at 2018 8:18 PM

2018-11-07T20:18:33-05:00

Ironically, I would have done what you just did, I would have asked him what would he do in your position

the best way to convince someone of their mistake is to probe into the emotional conflicts that are driving their bad decisions

if you’re good enough you can get people to admit fallacy and make them believe that it was them who came to that conclusion

if you can’t... well, there’s always the hammer

Response by SSG Jess Peters made Nov 7 at 2018 8:55 PM

2018-11-07T20:55:56-05:00

Make him finish his enlistment. Give him every crap duty that comes along, We had plenty of those during the draft. Them I could understand. But this one asked to be there. No easy way out.

Response by TSgt Bobbie Ballard made Nov 7 at 2018 11:10 PM

2018-11-07T23:10:32-05:00

I do not agree with the height and weight standards that are used in the military because in most cases they are unrealistic. Having said that, I do agree with a physical fitness standard that should be followed to a tee. The question is why does this individual want to get out so bad that he is willing to ruin his life?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2018 9:29 AM

2018-11-08T09:29:18-05:00

It seems there should be a UCMJ charge for that but there doesn’t appear to be. I mean being unable to make weight and blatantly refusing are quite different. Especially since he verbally confirmed this. Ultimately the simpler choice is to just chapter according to failed height weight standards. Bothers me when soldiers do this because it can influence others to follow suit. An easy way out.

Response by MAJ Jack Journeycake made Nov 8 at 2018 10:16 AM

2018-11-08T10:16:36-05:00

Tell him to go AWOL, problem solved. He gets a bad discharge, that he can live with for the rest of his life. In the all volunteer Army, some people just fail to live up to the oath they swore.

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Nov 9 at 2018 9:04 AM

2018-11-09T09:04:11-05:00

Help them get out as expeditiously as possible. There is a reason(s) they want out. Whether that is a job or family waiting, incompatibility, fear of deployment, bored, etc., its pretty clear that they no longer care to put in the work or effort to be an effective asset to the service. So help them out.

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Jan 10 at 2019 10:15 AM

2019-01-10T10:15:22-05:00

I believe that the reg states that after failing the tape test the second time, provided the CoC has jumped through their administrative hurdles, the CoC must INITIATE separation. Doesn't say you have to complete it.
I would inform Soldier of this loophole and also inform him that he WOULD be completing his enlistment, and that it was entirely up to him how smooth that term would be. This usually provides enough motivation for the kid to decide he will actually Soldier. Especially after the first few months of holding the line. And continuous counseling on motivation, both good and bad.
I am assuming that as a SPC the kid had already been in for a couple years and had 2 or less left to go. If he still had 3 or 4 years, the calculus may be different. At that point it may be better to cut bait, because if he doesn't shape up that is too long to carry dead weight... Plus it brings a large chance for him to PCS or to get in a new CDR who won't support that plan of action, which makes it just a waiting game for the SPC.

Response by PO2 Mike Shorey made Jan 12 at 2019 3:58 PM

2019-01-12T15:58:13-05:00

The good ole food for freedom program. In the Navy you needed to fail 3 within x years. That’s 18 months of remedial PT. I’m guessing he didn’t just re-enlist so odds are he wouldn’t get out much quicker.

Response by CPT Ian Stewart made Jan 16 at 2019 11:31 AM

2019-01-16T11:31:26-05:00

I learned a long time ago not to burn my bridges behind me. Assuming CPT Kletzing wasn't able to get the soldier to change his mind, I suspect at some point in the future, this soldier will regret the way he left the Army and the type of discharge he got. I agree with the comment left by TSgt Waide - do your time and then leave

Response by SGT Amy Tribou made Jan 28 at 2019 9:33 AM

2019-01-28T09:33:11-05:00

Well, as a prior medic on Bragg, disregard the weight gain. He had a soft shoe profile, for? This plan could not just get him discharged. He could claim medical issues and request MEB. If so, less than 30% Army he gets a separation check, if 30% or more he's an overweight retiree, with also some VA disability or at least a pension whichever is more. So, as you all are looking at the weight issue. I'm looking at the possibility of him getting paid for the rest of his life. Just saying.

Response by 1SG Brian Adams made Jan 28 at 2019 12:47 PM

2019-01-28T12:47:33-05:00

Counsel Soldier on paper. Get Commander inevolved with action and remove Soldier from the rolls...
This Soldiers repeated actions have a cancerous effect on the rest of the Battery, Company, Battalion etc...I want Soldiers with positive and sound mind and body....hooah!

Response by LTC James Boland made Jan 28 at 2019 2:10 PM

2019-01-28T14:10:12-05:00

Good Riddance. Who wants to serve with a soldier who does not want to be in thte Army. Moral and unit efficiency will suffer. Let him to ! There are others who want to serve and he can readily be replaced. Let him suffer the logical consequences of his action when he is a civilian. Dont care. Not the Armys problem and not my problem.

Response by LTC Jerel Pawley made Jan 29 at 2019 8:09 AM

2019-01-29T08:09:19-05:00

I would encourage the individual not to do it and give him/her reasons why. I would also inform them that the best they could hope for would be a General Discharge as opposed the anticipated Honorable Discharge. Also explaining the differences and how it may affect their future.

Response by CPL Toby Cline made Jan 29 at 2019 10:16 AM

2019-01-29T10:16:56-05:00

Give them what they want. Get the negitave out of the unit to keep morale up. It’s their life and to their dismay, bad conduct discharge, so git rid of the rif raf and move on.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2019 1:12 PM

2019-01-29T13:12:11-05:00

There is an interesting difference between the responses of Enlisted personnel and Commissioned. Seems like the officers are all to eager to throw the book at the Soldier in question and make their lives hell. Just my observation on the comments.

Response by SGT Danny Maiorani made Jan 29 at 2019 6:37 PM

2019-01-29T18:37:24-05:00

Just get em out as fast as possible. You can waste all the time you want getting them the worst discharge possible to try and screw them but as my Sergeant Major wisely told me, "We don't bother trying to get a dishonorable because it takes longer and they're a cancer that is better off removed from the organization ASAP."

A good majority of people who apply to have their General discharges turned into General under Honerable or even Honerable succeed later anyway....so if you can't warrant a dishonorable discharge for something truly heinous...just cut bait and move on.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2019 7:19 AM

2019-01-30T07:19:58-05:00

Do not do this. While on active duty (prior Army) I witnessed this happen and there is a term that was was applied - malingering. And like you he mentioned his intentions to someone and poor OPSEC resulted in a chapter out vice DEROS/ETS.

Response by MSG Ronnie Snider made Jan 30 at 2019 7:28 AM

2019-01-30T07:28:29-05:00

My 1st response would be do let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya, but really there has got to be a reason. What changed his mind? What went wrong, how can you make it better? Something is going on other than just wanting out. Find that reason and see if you can fix it. A lot of training and money has been spent to train this soldier it would be a waste he departs without anyone trying to help him. You may not be able to do this along get help with he if you think there is a chance to reverse his problems. Good luck.

Response by SFC Cheryl McElroy US ARMY (RET) made Jan 30 at 2019 4:44 PM

2019-01-30T16:44:16-05:00

Discharge for the good of the service.

Response by SFC Cheryl McElroy US ARMY (RET) made Jan 30 at 2019 4:45 PM

2019-01-30T16:45:18-05:00

Discharge for the good of the service.

Response by CPO Timothy Mauch made Jan 30 at 2019 10:10 PM

2019-01-30T22:10:24-05:00

Slightly different viewpoint, ignoring the “I want to get out” aspect.

Let’s say you have a senior NCO, who looks OK and passes the fitness tests with very high scores. The problem is that the body-fat measurements say he’s overweight, and doesn’t lose any weight. He says he’s trying very hard, but nothing happens. He doesn’t want a discharge. Is he lying? Is he “in denial”? What do you do with him? He’s a definite asset.

The answer of what actually happened is that he was discharged as a weight-control rehabilitation failure “in denial” who was actively lying about his food consumption.

The actual problem was diagnosed, two years later, as a pituitary gland hormone imbalance that made it impossible to lose weight, even when on a starvation diet and spending 2-1/2 hours a day working his ass off, trying to lose weight.

He spent the next 25 years going through various treatment regimes, including removal of both adrenal glands, and maxed-out at 365lbs, until a new treatment reversed everything. In the first year, he lost 50 lbs, WITHOUT changing anything else, diet or exercise.

It took 30 years to slowly gain the weight, it will take several years to lose it, but at least it’s happening.

If you haven’t guessed already, it’s me.

Response by 1SG Wayne Butt made Jan 31 at 2019 8:56 AM

2019-01-31T08:56:51-05:00

Everyone has an agenda! My goal was always to take care of the troops! Firm, but Fair! At their age, they are not always thinking of the future! With our experience, we can show and light up the way for them. Getting in was not easy, but getting out is fairly easy. How does this impact your future? Best option is to finish the enlistment to the best of their abilities, get that honorable discharge and hang it on the wall proudly. Our Government is the largest employer in the World. Having Veterans preference points is huge! Veterans hire great veterans, just saying!

Response by 1SG Wayne Butt made Jan 31 at 2019 8:58 AM

2019-01-31T08:58:40-05:00

Response by SGT Kyle Bickley made Jan 31 at 2019 2:36 PM

2019-01-31T14:36:38-05:00

Close door counseling! I hate a punk!

Response by CPT Tom Monahan made Jan 31 at 2019 3:38 PM

2019-01-31T15:38:08-05:00

May want to get with the BC and 1SG and let them know what you were told. With the profiles there may be some real medical issue and maybe it’s time for a MRB. Keep in mind that the Soldier may not be shamming; he could feel guilty for not pulling his load.

Response by CDR Phil Smith made Jan 31 at 2019 3:54 PM

2019-01-31T15:54:49-05:00

While serving as a Navy JAG I witnessed a prosecutor/Trial Counsel cross-examining an accused who had dozens excuses for going UA, "Is there anything you haven't quit or failed at? " I was also a Department Head. This soldier needs "counseling" that giving up on something this big in life sets a bad precedent. Also I have been a prosecutor and criminal defense attorney for 40 years. Giving up and quitting is a hallmark of many, if not most, defendants.

Response by CPT Ray Gilmore made Feb 1 at 2019 11:46 AM

2019-02-01T11:46:23-05:00

I would have him write down the details of his master plan in a sworn statement, and I would write a sworn statement detailing what he had stated; then, with the CO's nod, head to JAG, to ensure everything is in order; then hit him up for violation of article 115 of the UCMJ, and immediately have him removed from the unit.

Dirtbags like this become cancers in units.

Then, once he was out of the ranks, I would make an example of him, and ask if anyone else wanted to "get out"; with a Dishonorable Discharge, and potentially 1-year of confinement...... or do they prefer to make themselves better, and move forward in life.

Response by Pvt Robert L. Lamoreaux made Feb 1 at 2019 1:58 PM

2019-02-01T13:58:13-05:00

This type of nonsense irks me. It reflects the "entitlement" or "I'm going to do what I want to do". You basically sign a contract when you enlist. Uncle Sam paid a lot of money training a service member.
This type of mentality shows a lack of character that should caution potential (civilian) employers, or even educational institutions, about the individual's commitment, maturity, and self-discipline.

Response by SGT Stanley Bass made Feb 1 at 2019 2:28 PM

2019-02-01T14:28:31-05:00

Personally, what happened to me was i got tired of being in the military and said "F " it im done. But I was special circumstance. Had went blind in one eye. Got out on a medical. I was on anabolic steroids and in terrible looking condition due to massive weight gain, they could not chapter me for that however. So to the point. In the process i failed two pt tests consecutively. A company commander that did not know my circumstances was going to start chapter paperwork quick fast and in a hurry. So if I were to want out. I would go the rout of failing two consecutive pt tests. If you fail height and weight, they are gonna put you on the fat boy program, taking time and energy and spread it out for a while. Easier to just fail two tests. As a matter of fact the first time I was ona breathing profile for the steroids. My CO did not like me and had my breathing profile lifted so he could test me and when I failed he could chapter me. Sad part for him. At that point I still wanted to be in and I passed the pt test.

Response by 1SG James Matthews made Feb 1 at 2019 8:19 PM

2019-02-01T20:19:32-05:00

Tell him thats fine and as his 1st. Sgt. I would make sure he was on every detail I could find that would help him lose weight and would work his butt off till he left or changed his mind.

Response by CH (CPT) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 1 at 2019 9:52 PM

2019-02-01T21:52:49-05:00

Send him to the chaplain. There’s a guy who knows about failing height and weight. LOL. Seriously though, he’s got a morale and maybe a spiritual/life issue that could be causing this low point. Maybe spiritual care and counseling will help. Maybe not. He may just need a med board. Not everyone is physically capable of the service.

Response by SGT Robert Andrews made Feb 2 at 2019 11:53 PM

2019-02-02T23:53:32-05:00

Everyone joined the military for a reason. Find out why that sm joined the military and what caused the attitude change. Sometimes the problem is deeper than " I want to quit".
Address that issue.

Response by SGM Major Stroupe made Feb 3 at 2019 6:11 AM

2019-02-03T06:11:33-05:00

Height and weight standards are indicators of medical health. The Army says for a certain height you should not exceed a certain weight. So a person who intentionally wants to get out by failing height and weight standards has more issues than seen on the surface. It is a clear admission that this person needs help. So you go through the drill of reviewing the height and weight standards with the soldier and when he/she declares that they don't care, they are going to continue to fail it anyway then you really don't have much of a choice. I would recommend nutrition counselling and set up a psych evaluation. The soldier obviously has lost self worth and is willing to sacrifice their own health for a shortcut to civilian life. The counselling my provide some much needed good eating tips and the psych eval may uncover the real reason for wanting to curtail service. At least you are providing education to the soldier because there is life after the Army and they must prepare themselves for that time. How one handles the struggles in life determines they type of person they are. Life was not meant to be easy but it should be enjoyed. This soldier has lost enjoyment in life. He needs to get himself back on track whether or not he remains a soldier.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2019 12:29 PM

2019-02-03T12:29:50-05:00

Attempt to convince this soldier to go out on good terms. Do his best to comply and leave the Army on good terms. Your work is cut out for you, sir.

Response by PO2 John Chalus made Feb 3 at 2019 5:28 PM

2019-02-03T17:28:03-05:00

Don’t do it. That is taking the easy way out. You are establishing a way of dealing with tough situations. Embrace the suck. Finish what you started.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2019 11:59 PM

2019-02-03T23:59:51-05:00

Processed him for a general discharge.

Response by Bill Husztek made Feb 4 at 2019 11:26 PM

2019-02-04T23:26:24-05:00

Let him go.
The sad fact is that he is already a failure in life. Best to cut him loose so good troops can get on with the mission.
This has nothing to do with military service being too tough. It goes to his ability to commit to a job
or task and see it through. If you don't want a guy like this around loan him some money for his promise to repay you.

Response by CPT Jeff Robinette made Feb 10 at 2019 11:40 PM

2019-02-10T23:40:17-05:00

Just my opinion and nothing more, but I've always considered the height and weight standards used by the Army to be just numbers. The height weight standards Army uses at the current time and in my time are arbitrary my opinion. They do not take into consideration the level of fitness and the conditioning of the soldier.
I had two soldiers when I was in Germany. One was a fat slob, the other was the college football player that lost his scholarship due to a knee injury.
The slob got waiver after waiver after waiver so she could sure that he was losing weight he was losing fat he wasn't losing weight wasn't losing muscle mass. The football player on the other hand it's kind of hard to lose muscle mass when you're like 3% body fat. The football player wanted to stay in because he he get his college education but that didn't work out for him. Within six months he was out of the army.
The only recourse that I can see you taking just to point out that he's going to end up with a general discharge. Chances are he won't be able to get any help to the VA; he can forget about college, he can forget about the about VA medical he can forget about job assistance.
Basically you're going to have to do leadership 101 on him. That's the best advice I can give you.

Response by PO2 Michael Henry made Feb 13 at 2019 1:52 PM

2019-02-13T13:52:26-05:00

While I was booted for failing weight standards, I still got my Honorable Discharge with benefits. However before everyone blasts me, I had two medical issues that went largely unnoticed by medical. I went, but I had the bottom of the class seeing me.

1. I tore my right calf during PT and was essentially running on one leg but maintaining pace with the injured calf by pushing on the balls of my foot. The physical therapist thought it was a good idea to stretch a torn muscle. Bad idea, picture stretching pre-torn, but not completely torn paper. Torn in Summer 2011, Out in June 2012, Healed 2013.

2. I was dealing with sleep apnea and hypothyroidism. Labs confirmed it, no one had their reading glasses on. Found out 2 years after getting out.

I was willing to stick it out and finish but medical issues stopped that. The best option, finish the term and get out.

Response by CSM Patrick Durr made Feb 15 at 2019 12:02 PM

2019-02-15T12:02:47-05:00

It's one of the longest ways to a discharge. Flagged all along the way. Overweight program, extra PT sessions...etc. general discharge or less. Could take a year or longer. I personally never let a service member manipulate the system without some level of pain.

Response by SSG Jerel Parker made Feb 18 at 2019 4:11 PM

2019-02-18T16:11:12-05:00

I was one of those soldiers in the Army years ago when General Rogers started the weight program to get soldiers to look like movie stars....I had those weight-height standards hanging over my heed for almost half of my career. I worked very hard at maintaining my weight, which was a daily struggle, and just barely passed the weight-height standards on some monthly weigh-ins, but I made it to twenty years on guts and determination. I wanted to stay in and be a good soldier. I did it for me, and my stubbornness that I was as good as any of those pretty soldiers that didn't have to do anything to meet the standards. I was a senior NCO, and proud of it. I was a soldier right up to my retirement, and was proud to have served, and proud of my accomplishments. I never let the service down, even though I did not agree with the weight-height program, that expected men and woman to look like movies stars, when each soldier has a different body shape and size, but the standards were way off base. I made it to retirement, and have always respected the Army for making me that much tougher to get through the ordeal of making height-weight standards I did not agree with, but I did it, and if you have the conviction and determination you can all do it. I have no respect for quitters or slackers so git in there and finish your enlistments, and leave as respected men and women that did your service proudly. I did, and you can too. You'll never regret it.

Response by SPC Tony Tarone made Feb 24 at 2019 1:22 AM

2019-02-24T01:22:29-05:00

If a soldier gets to the point where they'll accept a discharge on weight control failure or similar, then it's a failure of leadership. There's a good chance that the soldier did their homework and realized they will get an honorable discharge and maybe even cash to get out. Compare that to piss-poor leadership and it becomes a viable option.

Simple equation: Do nothing and get paid and an honorable discharge, or work hard to get fit and continue to deal with the ass-hat leadership.

If you have soldiers, Marines, airmen, or squids like that, then leaders need look to themselves for answers and make adjustments.

If that offends you as a leader, then I'm talking about you. Fix yourself.

Response by Cpl Geoff Smith made Mar 3 at 2019 1:31 PM

2019-03-03T13:31:35-05:00

Let him go, wouldn't cover mine, or anybody else's 6 anyway!

Response by SPC Daniel Rankin made Mar 3 at 2019 5:56 PM

2019-03-03T17:56:44-05:00

I would have given him a counseling and sent him to see the psych. Then make him tell the truth. he was trying to get out for a specific reason and didn't want anyone to know. Fine, but to gain weight was only hurting himself and no one else. A section 8 is what he would have ended up with and that is worse then a dishonorable. He could have even gotten both.

Response by SFC Harry H. made Mar 3 at 2019 8:53 PM

2019-03-03T20:53:25-05:00

I say do it! The military doesn’t need shit bags like you. I hope the first time you really try for a decent job you get told, na! Were good, we don’t need shit bags with dishonerable discharges.

Response by LTJG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2019 9:09 PM

2019-03-03T21:09:08-05:00

Honestly some really great responses already given. My two cents would be to have this guy talk to someone that overcame this problem. Preferably a peer or someone 1 or 2 ranks above him that he respects. See if there are any NCO's that had a really rough time as jr enlisted that can mentor this soldier. To people that really struggle with the self control and self discipline of weight control issues, the goal of losing weight and getting back in shape has to seem achievable TO THAT PERSON.
You can't tell someone that's down on themselves that something isn't that hard if they cant see it on their own.

As to why he feels this way in the first place? I can only speak to my personal experiences. He might feel trapped. He might feel that he has zero control over his life. He might have told himself that he wont be happy unless x, y, or z happens, but x, y, and z are unattainable while he's serving where he is. (Example, he wants to be with a girl but said girl lives in an area that he can't get stationed or his favorite things to do are snow related but he's stationed in the south)
Sometimes people overeat because that's the only thing they feel like they have any real control over. Maybe you could try giving him some responsibilities so he feels more apart of the team or make him aware of an opportunity that's aligned with his interests that makes him WANT to improve himself.

Barring that, i'd let the guy know that everything he endured and earned would be for pretty much nothing if he gets separated in that way. Tell him all of the benefits he would lose. Ask him what he's going to do for a steady paycheck.

Response by 1SG Lynell Sellers made Mar 3 at 2019 10:24 PM

2019-03-03T22:24:48-05:00

He was not drafted. He needs to Man up and do his job. That's the problem now days. Everybody want something but doesn't want to work for it. He was a Sorry person before he joined.

Response by PV2 Mark Walston made Mar 4 at 2019 4:27 AM

2019-03-04T04:27:57-05:00

Reported him to the battalion CO.

Response by SFC Jonathan Adams made Mar 4 at 2019 9:49 AM

2019-03-04T09:49:33-05:00

I'd have pushed the issue to have his ass chaptered for malingering. I can't stand people that don't have the spine to do what they've committed to do.

Response by SPC David S. made Mar 4 at 2019 3:36 PM

2019-03-04T15:36:00-05:00

Had them over to someone like me - if I can't fix him I kill em trying. All I need is a entrenching tool and good solid ground.

Response by SGT Kurt Neumann made Mar 4 at 2019 7:32 PM

2019-03-04T19:32:06-05:00

Go.home.Bad4.morale.suck.it.up.
You're going 2.regret.this.move.

Response by SGT Kurt Neumann made Mar 4 at 2019 7:47 PM

2019-03-04T19:47:34-05:00

ARMY
STRONG
NOT
ARMY
WHINE!!

Response by Lt Col Paul Gacke made Mar 4 at 2019 9:41 PM

2019-03-04T21:41:57-05:00

The way you did. Discuss the implications of a general or administrative discharge and offer him support to meet standards. If he refuses, take the required action to discharge him.

Response by SPC Erik Sletten made Mar 5 at 2019 9:33 AM

2019-03-05T09:33:14-05:00

Well, its obviously the soldiers choice sadly. However a true soldier/sailor/airman/marine would fulfill their duty and obligation to the army. Speaking for myself, i WISH i could have stayed in. Although my physical ability deteriorated so i could no longer serve. I finished my duty to the army but was unable to re-up. So for anyone that wants to get out by "cheating the system" is unworthy to even wear the uniform. The military is a tough lifestyle, everyone should know this off the bat and if you cant imagine the worst things that could be, then you shouldnt bother signing your life away. There are plenty of soldiers that would probably love to re-up like myself but cannot and its a shame that others are willing to give it up.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2019 10:33 AM

2019-03-05T10:33:30-05:00

I'd say good luck with that. It is at the command's discretion to initiate a discharge. In my 18 years, I have never seen some one discharged for not passing at PT test. I would of course want to find the reason why. From there I would encourage to do what they need to, to get through their enlistment but also remind them that failing height/weight and PT have some adverse actions. First and foremost they lose whatever leadership position the hold and responsibility the hold. They also will probably end up on the crap details and be the "b*tch" of whatever the unit is involved in. NTC- white cell, field conditions- KP for example. Make them understand that they do have value other than the very basic soldiering but they will lose their credibility for a failing standard. Also let them know that is the commands responsibility to mentor and develop soldier who are wanting to progress in their career. If the soldier is not a complete dirt bag, then that will strike a cord with them. If he is then staff duty has a person who can mop floors for them.

Response by PO3 John Jeter made Mar 5 at 2019 4:21 PM

2019-03-05T16:21:46-05:00

I consider this the same as writing a bad check knowingly. I would counsel the individual as to his obligation to honor his signed word. If he continues to fail on purpose I don't see any other option than to initiate disciplinary action. Time for the young man to suck it up and fulfill his obligation or bear the negative consequences.

Response by SSG David Trumble made Mar 6 at 2019 2:25 AM

2019-03-06T02:25:30-05:00

If you quit, no matter what reason, you will regret it the rest of your life. Unless of course you find it easier to quit then to give it your best to succeed. Dave

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2019 8:25 PM

2019-03-06T20:25:14-05:00

When I was in the first time it was tell them you are gay I have seen soldiers use the weight routine to get out.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 7 at 2019 2:23 PM

2019-03-07T14:23:31-05:00

This exact thing happened in my unit in 1998. The Soldier was skinny but decided this was the quickest way out as he didnt want to do his remaining 3 years.
He got it done too.
Two years later he come by the barracks all proud of his return to normal size and job working construction.
He was in another platoon so I dont know what steps his leaders took but I do know the 1SG didnt handle it so well. Outright yelling in formation and such. 1SG didnt make SGM either.

Response by SSG Thomas Werstlein made Mar 8 at 2019 3:14 PM

2019-03-08T15:14:47-05:00

Sir,
You really didn't provide much insight to the total picture. While this may appear to be a disgruntled Soldier, what else was going on with his personal life? The two sides of this debate are the Bad Soldier and the Bad Leader. I don't believe the leadership in this case is bad, I think they are more likely to be inexperienced. I don't believe this Soldier to be a bad Soldier but rather not properly cared for (Competence is my watch-word. My two basic responsibilities will always be uppermost in my mind--accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my soldiers. ... All soldiers are entitled to outstanding leadership; I will provide that leadership. I know my soldiers and I will always place their needs above my own. I will communicate consistently with my soldiers and never leave them uninformed.) by his NCO leadership. If the leadership has been diligent and knows the Soldier, he may not have gotten where he is emotionally. It is still a possibility that this Soldier is not adjusting to military life and may need to be separated for the good of the service.

One course of action, without knowing the specifics of the situation, would be to reassign the Soldier to another team or platoon and give the new leadership team time to acclimate if you will. If the Soldier fails to adjust then separation options may need to be considered.

Response by SGT Juan Robledo made Mar 8 at 2019 9:37 PM

2019-03-08T21:37:41-05:00

Have him medically evaluated by a physician and head shrink and try to get to the bottom of this, the soldier may be having marital problems or family issues no telling, hope he can get the help he or she needs

Response by 1SG James Kelly made Mar 9 at 2019 7:29 AM

2019-03-09T07:29:44-05:00

Bye.

Response by 1SG James Kelly made Mar 9 at 2019 7:30 AM

2019-03-09T07:30:08-05:00

Bye.

Response by Maj Mike Sciales made Mar 9 at 2019 11:37 AM

2019-03-09T11:37:50-05:00

I'd have sprung for a ticket to the buffet bar and told him to enjoy himself while I started the separation paperwork. This is a volunteer military and people can decide they don't like it, and if eating their way out is an option, why not? The government can cancel an enlistment contract on a whim, so somebody taking advantage of a non-punitive regulation to get out seems fair. Some might say that's wrong, to let somebody game the system. My question is "How would attempting to retaining or motivate this sad sack inure to the benefit of the Army?" When manpower announces drawdowns this is a great time for commanders to get rid of all the "low hanging fruit" in their organization. If the soldier has been on active duty more than two and a half years, the DoD has recouped the cost of his training, he gets an honorable discharge and goes to work at Jiffy Lube and everybody wins. How he feels about his life going forward isn't my concern, my concern is providing the best possible work environment I can for the people under my command, and one unmotivated troop can do a lot of damage to esprit d'corps and morale.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2019 6:45 PM

2019-03-09T18:45:00-05:00

Do your time and do your best. Don’t be a baby. Don’t leave like a jerk.

Response by 1SG Henry McDonald made Mar 10 at 2019 11:12 PM

2019-03-10T23:12:49-04:00

I would put him on a focused remedial PT program. If he isn’t going to try and wants to fail himself it wouldn’t be with my help. If after being on a focused remedial PT program he still fails well then so be it but I would definitely try to square him away

Response by LCpl Steve Smith made Mar 11 at 2019 4:05 PM

2019-03-11T16:05:52-04:00

If the soldier is not Salvageable and you tried everything to convince him to stay, I would Other then Honorable discharge him. It does no one any good to have someone not wanting to be there to that extent. It's bad for morale. As an non-rate (E-3) when I was in there was nothing more frustrating at times then seeing someone that was pulling shit like that. The slow chain movement on disciplinary action to the point of discharging that person made it appear to me and almost everyone else that they didn't care that they were like that and it dragged us down morale wise...
LCpl Smith,
3/5 Motor T

Response by Sgt Clyde Sinclair made Mar 11 at 2019 9:29 PM

2019-03-11T21:29:11-04:00

Come on, you guys make this stuff up, right? Troops wanting to grow beards, long hair, get fat to get out. Seriously? I mean it's no secret that the military expects and instills discipline, that certain grooming standards are in place, military protocol is expected to be kept, like saluting an officer or staying fit. A person knows all this before enlisting right? I mean, there's no draft so you must be a volunteer. Makes me want to puke when I hear this stuff. Stand up, be proud and complete your commitment with pride. Whichever choice you make you'll have to live with the rest of your life. I just hope these few don't get Honorable discharges which would be an insult to all WHO HAVE served honorably. There were plenty of guys drafted for Vietnam and most served honorably, certainly someone who enlisted can do the same. Grow up and be a man.

Response by Brad Powers made Mar 11 at 2019 10:16 PM

2019-03-11T22:16:35-04:00

I would rather be a Lean Mean U.S. Military Fighting Machine than a round unsound civilian on the ground.

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made Mar 13 at 2019 12:16 PM

2019-03-13T12:16:59-04:00

Up to you to stay fit. You are too fat. You could not back me up in combat

Response by CW5 Donna Smith made Mar 13 at 2019 4:44 PM

2019-03-13T16:44:56-04:00

The soldier is making a choice, not a good choice but a choice. The consequences are his and his alone. He has to live with his decision. Not a decision I would make no matter what was going on in my life. The only thing you can do is some counseling and know that even after you lay all the cards on the table, the soldier is going to make whatever decision he makes. I had this happen with an Airman and she was determined to get out and this was her way out, besides getting pregnant. Know that you have done all you can do and allow him to create the life he wants to create. It's sad but that's just how it goes. Rev Donna Smith, CW5 (Retired)

Response by SGT Brian Ewing made Mar 15 at 2019 12:41 PM

2019-03-15T12:41:56-04:00

I would handle it the same way as a failure to follow any other regulation. He failed to follow regs and remain healthy. He also admitted he willfully would not following regs. The same as being out of uniform etc. If he were outdoors without headgear he would be given ample time to correct the deficiency. If it continues then UCMJ action may be appropriate. I never liked the overweight medical chapter classification because it was not a medical condition but a discipline condition.

Response by SPC Vonnie Jones made Mar 17 at 2019 1:26 PM

2019-03-17T13:26:10-04:00

He could have just done it. You can encourage someone to get and stay fit, but telling you changes things. Being purposeful makes all the difference between honorable and dishonorable.

Response by SPC David Young made Mar 23 at 2019 9:22 AM

2019-03-23T09:22:50-04:00

Years ago, I knew a PFC in my unit who could not control his weight. He was a big guy before coming in the Army who played football in high school and college. The sad thing is is that he wanted to re-enlist and stay in the Army. Maybe steps were taken that I'm not aware of but it seems to me that some people in our chain of command failed to help him. In the end, the man wasn't chaptered out. He was allowed to finish out his 3 years and ETS.

Response by SPC Tim LaFountain made Mar 24 at 2019 2:06 PM

2019-03-24T14:06:44-04:00

I busted my ass to try to meet my weight, and I was a good soldier. But my commander not only barred me from reenlistment but denied my 2nd good conduct, I wasn’t planning on re-upping but I felt I had earned that 2nd GC.

Response by MSgt Stephen Brent Willson, Global MBA made Mar 25 at 2019 4:34 PM

2019-03-25T16:34:15-04:00

Biggest thing is you only keep VA benefits like the GI Bill if you get an honorable discharge. That's throwing some serious cash away.

Response by SFC John Fourquet made Mar 26 at 2019 8:42 AM

2019-03-26T08:42:57-04:00

If he wants to fail his height and weight let him. Just bar him from reenlistment and let him finish out his current enlistment without any awards or promotion. In the mean time have his
PSG verify he has a valid profile or PT and soft shoes.

Response by LTC Ronald Stephens made Mar 28 at 2019 11:58 PM

2019-03-28T23:58:12-04:00

His CO might be able to speed things up for him under AR 635-212, specifying unfitness.

Response by SFC Vince Dunlap made Mar 29 at 2019 2:15 PM

2019-03-29T14:15:50-04:00

I would've informed him of the ramifications of getting out the way he was intending to do so; most don't understand that type of discharge could adversely affect them in the civilian world. However, when someone has made their mind up that they want to do something, no one can stop it. In too many career fields, people have the intentions of staying for X amount of years, but when you have that moment of clarity where it no longer fits, nothing will change it. Yea its the Army, and it's supposed to be Army first, and the 7 values and all that; but at the end of the day you come first to yourself. And if you aren't happy where you are then make the change that is needed.

Response by Cpl Bill Johnson made Apr 15 at 2019 7:06 AM

2019-04-15T07:06:52-04:00

When I was in the Corps, I knew a guy who did this. By the time he was shown the door he had regrets. His regrets were based in the fact that he was looked upon with disdain by a the Marines who knew him.

Response by SGT Dorian Wolfe made Apr 18 at 2019 10:27 AM

2019-04-18T10:27:33-04:00

What is the real reason? Did you ask why and keep asking why? Are they gay/transgender? Are they being bullied? Is it the job? Are they just a dud? (I don't know what a soft shoe profile is?) This guy was a Spc4 and hopefully made rank because he was good and cared. Something happened.

Response by SSG Brian G. made May 12 at 2019 11:17 PM

2019-05-12T23:17:21-04:00

You document it. Straight off. This soldier has just communicated to you, the XO that he intends, with forethought to fail a standard. Not through a fault of his own but because he wants out and he sees this as an avenue to do that. Without looking it up, I am fairly certain that alone is a crime by UCMJ standards.

You inform your Company First Sergeant and Company Commander of the interaction and what has occurred thus far. It is then in the Commanders hands as to where and how to proceed.

Response by CPL Gary Martin made May 23 at 2019 12:38 AM

2019-05-23T00:38:12-04:00

Why'd you join in the first place? The draft ended towards end of Vietnam. So you JOINED Freaking coward.

Response by SPC Rick LaBonte made Oct 3 at 2019 12:05 PM

2019-10-03T12:05:56-04:00

I don’t get some people. The average enlistment is four years, you usually make E4 somewhere in your second year and in most cases E4’s are in their early 20’s. So you’re already 1/3 through your enlistment when you achieve that rank,why not go the distance and get out at the end of your enlistment honorably? By the time you make E4 you’re already in the Army life routine, it’s a cakewalk from there!
If he wants out that bad, you’re not going to convince him, but if I was on a temporary soft shoe profile, I’d concentrate on my upper body and middle while I healed up, and there’s stationary equipment at the gym for cardiovascular I could use until I could run again.
It just doesn’t make sense to me! He knew going in the physical challenges!

Response by PO1 Chuck Lankford made Oct 3 at 2019 2:24 PM

2019-10-03T14:24:43-04:00

Some people just can't adjust to military life! It's not a camping club and it's not the Boy Scouts. If he doesn't want to be in the military then why did he join, he sure wasn't drafted. 30 day in the Stockade, reduced in rank, loss of pay, OTH after the Stockade time. If he doesn't want to be in the Military then let him go, he would useless in combat!!

Response by Sgt Dan Catlin made Oct 3 at 2019 2:35 PM

2019-10-03T14:35:27-04:00

Some people are just not fit for military service. Some can only take so much, and you (nor they) will know until they reach that point. When it happens, and after they have been counciled on the ramifications of a less than honorable discharge and they still want it, I say give it to them. Maybe a General under less than honorable conditions. But when they start threatening any action such as this guy did he should at most get a BCD. He was insubordinate and willfully in violation of regs. Depending on his demeanor and other factors, possibly even Court Martial, 6-6-and a kick.

Response by SP5 Edwin Martinez made Oct 3 at 2019 5:11 PM

2019-10-03T17:11:17-04:00

Todays Army is a day care... when I was in the military i had a few soldiers with the same thoughts my respond was the same "there are plenty of chapters to send you to confinement you finish your contract and then go home.".. they turned around on their own..

Response by SPC Michael Swann made Oct 3 at 2019 7:42 PM

2019-10-03T19:42:55-04:00

Dude all you gotta do is go to mental health

Response by SPC Ken Watson made Oct 3 at 2019 10:28 PM

2019-10-03T22:28:54-04:00

Booted him out since he didn't want to be there anymore.. Who from the unit would trust him in a foxhole anymore beside them.

Response by SSG Jess Peters made Oct 3 at 2019 11:36 PM

2019-10-03T23:36:15-04:00

Just get rid of him. One jerk can destroy an entire unit. A general discharge would be deserved.

Response by SFC William Ewing made Oct 3 at 2019 11:47 PM

2019-10-03T23:47:31-04:00

Loss of veterans benifts
Lack of motivation benifts not earned

Response by SGT Tim Finnell made Oct 4 at 2019 9:44 AM

2019-10-04T09:44:57-04:00

He would have been doing mandated pt within his profile before, during, and after work

Response by SGT Peter Gallagher made Oct 4 at 2019 5:51 PM

2019-10-04T17:51:55-04:00

I never understood why leadership didnt move faster on getting these folks out of the formation as fast as possible.

Response by A1C Leland Kowal made Oct 4 at 2019 6:04 PM

2019-10-04T18:04:43-04:00

It’s difficult when you care about the person as an individual but also the cost to the unit and the military if he leaves. That being said, you can only lead a horse to water you can’t make them drink. Without knowing the individual or the situations that caused the distress how could I or any of us comment on what might have been done to motivate this person to pay their dues and to try to save them from what is likely a very severe depression and poor life decisions.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2019 7:19 PM

2019-10-04T19:19:30-04:00

I would have pushed for a dishonerable discharge as he intended to do it that in my opinion is a slap in the face to people who were the uniform

Response by SGT Scott Swinford made Oct 4 at 2019 8:01 PM

2019-10-04T20:01:37-04:00

Your post didn't say, so I'm asking, why did this soldier have to come to you on his own? Where were his NCOs? Were they involved. IF NOT there was a huge leadership failure.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2019 9:38 PM

2019-10-04T21:38:53-04:00

Maybe shaming him? If you can handle the military, you can handle anything. Once he gets out he will talk about how he served in the military and will talk about that to get respect and then give some poor excuse as to why he got out so that he feels less ashamed

Response by SP5 Gary Smith made Oct 4 at 2019 9:50 PM

2019-10-04T21:50:21-04:00

I’d give him every shit detail until he either saw the light or got booted.

Response by SPC Tj Troquille made Oct 5 at 2019 4:41 PM

2019-10-05T16:41:21-04:00

I’m a petty asshole so I would have kept him in till his enlistment was almost up then booted his ass

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2020 7:30 PM

2020-03-02T19:30:35-05:00

i always want to ask, what did you think was gonna happen? Basic training was full of cry babies “ I miss my wife, I miss this” what did you sign up for? You expect a cape and a handshake? G*ddamn people it’s honestly not that bad some bs from time to time but anyway joining the military shows who’s real and who’s not. Sorry not sorry “ oh man, I’m tough” couldn’t make through basic. Smh

Response by CPT Robert Holden made Mar 3 at 2020 3:08 PM

2020-03-03T15:08:28-05:00

That’s one way to get out. The height weight standards are important. I had trouble once due to my build. I wasn’t out of shape. Just my build. So the tape measure method saved me

Response by SFC Jason Hodge made Mar 3 at 2020 3:20 PM

2020-03-03T15:20:52-05:00

Malingering sounds like a good charge.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2020 3:43 PM

2020-03-03T15:43:34-05:00

What's the root of the problem?
I put out a Soldier for being Gay. That wasn't her problem, her problem was an NCO that she worked for and her didn't get along. She wanted out, and she got it.

If he wants out, let him out. Though i have reenlisted guys who wanted out like that once you find out what the issue is and what motivates them. I don't have any special people skills, i just took the time to ask.

I wouldn't go after him for malingering though, even though he admitted it to you. I would probably tell him what malingering is though.

Response by SSG William Olivier made Mar 3 at 2020 7:15 PM

2020-03-03T19:15:50-05:00

First check and see how long he had left and how long he had been in.
In my unit we had a SSG that was going to ETS in six months. He had been in the over weight program and got out. He then purposely blew the next weigh in. He got out with 18 grand for being put out early. He had no intentions of re enlisting and received a nice separation check instead of a pat on the back.

Response by LTC Charles Patchin made Mar 4 at 2020 12:06 AM

2020-03-04T00:06:21-05:00

My first thought is to have a statement written by the indiv. so stating his intended actions. Next send the indiv. for psychiatric counselling. All these being made part of his both personnel and medical files. This will help to prevent indiv. from applying for veterans benefits and medical treatment. Lastly initiate separation processing based on violation of Art 134 and others, as appropriate. It used to be referred to as multiple disciplinary problems affecting unit morale. It was highly punitive.

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2020 6:53 AM

2020-03-04T06:53:38-05:00

I think a good leader should always take into account why he was acting that way

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2020 9:30 AM

2020-03-04T09:30:31-05:00

I'm in no position to say what I would do seeing as I'm no officer, but if I were in your shoes I would honestly put him on some type of training regiment. Cause I've been on profile PT and it doesn't really help with sustainment, it only is there for you to stay semi active until you heal up. Or I would try to make him understand the consequences of his decision and how it would totally effect his entire life. If he was struggling with weight issues like even while trying to stay in the organization then I would help in any way I possibly could to ensure he got on the right path.