I am 1LT and my friend is SGT. We are in same division and base but in different brigade. Can we still hangout together and drink beer?

2022-03-12T08:57:06-05:00

I am 1LT and my friend is SGT. We are in same division but different brigade. Can we still hangout and drink beer? Does it consider fraternization even if we are from different brigade. My wife and his spouse are friend too. Please advise

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2022 9:11 AM

2022-03-12T09:11:27-05:00

It would/could be considered fraternization. If you want the full scoop, hit up JAG.

Response by SFC William Linnell made Mar 12 at 2022 9:16 AM

2022-03-12T09:16:01-05:00

It could be. Especially if you start calling each other by first names. Even not in uniform, on duty, your still Officer and SGT. That line must not be crossed. Even in the privacy of your homes. You begin to create an atmosphere of relaxed standards and it will happen without thinking and that SGT could call you by your first name while in uniform and look out if you are with other officers.

Definitely ask JAG.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Mar 12 at 2022 10:41 AM

2022-03-12T10:41:40-05:00

Looks like you are in the Reserve. Check to see if the Reserve has an exception to the Army directives covering fraternization. It may be legal for you and the SGT to hang out and have a beer when you’re both not under the UCMJ. Not necessarily smart, but not illegal.

Response by LTC Ray Buenteo made Mar 12 at 2022 10:57 AM

2022-03-12T10:57:23-05:00

You can be a transgender female in todays army. What do you think?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2022 12:04 PM

2022-03-12T12:04:49-05:00

First off, being an Officer and likely future commander, you're going to want to get real familiar with DA Pam 600-35. It has all kinds of examples of relationships, so it's pretty clear.

Being the in RC you're totally fine. Even on active duty it wouldn't draw any attention for two spouse to be friends, hang out, and have husbands of different ranks.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Mar 12 at 2022 6:46 PM

2022-03-12T18:46:35-05:00

It can of course happen, I can site for you multiple relationships that develop for any number of reasons. There are generally two lines in which these relationships are managed, neither really matters accept to say that you don’t need to hide, but not flaunt the relationship. We cannot help who we like as people, and our wives should not have to sacrifice friendship along with every other sacrifice they make in the name of the military. You just have to be discreet and professional.

Never play favorites, ensure that you and your spouses understand that in the end of the day, unit policy and Army regulation will prevail.

I have and continue to have personal relationships with Officers for 2LT to General. Sone initiated by our spouse, sone developed over time, some from the battlefield and sone from hap-instance.
Be professional.

Response by SFC Kelly Fuerhoff made Mar 12 at 2022 8:08 PM

2022-03-12T20:08:17-05:00

You could take a gander at AR 600-20, Para 4-14 is where it starts about inappropriate relationships. Key takeaway from that:

All relationships between
Soldiers of different grades are prohibited if they—
(1) Compromise, or appear to compromise, the integrity of supervisory authority or the chain of command.
(2) Cause actual or perceived partiality or unfairness.
(3) Involve, or appear to involve, the improper use of grade or rank or position for personal gain.
(4) Are, or are perceived to be, exploitative or coercive in nature.
(5) Create an actual or clearly predictable adverse impact on discipline, authority, morale, or the ability of the
command to accomplish its mission.

Response by MSG Reid Zohfeld made Mar 12 at 2022 11:06 PM

2022-03-12T23:06:13-05:00

I guess you most of missed the one up and down rule
I know sometimes it’s hard but it works

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Mar 14 at 2022 11:48 AM

2022-03-14T11:48:36-04:00

While I was still in, as a SFC, I was pretty good friends with a CPT (now MAJ, still serving), both AD.

The first three times I met him, I knew he was in the Army, but did not know his rank. We met through our spouses. This is covered under the fraternization rules, and is OK (I did a LOT of checking before I allowed our friendship to continue). At the time, I was assigned to Installation HQ (G3) and he was in the S3 of one of the subordinate BNs. In two years, we saw each other once in a professional capacity. We were both completely able to put aside our personal relationship and act professionally. A casual observer would not have known we knew each other at all. That is the goal, and intent of fraternization policy. In addition to this, I saw him three or four times around base (passing each other at PX, chow hall, etc.) Again, aside from maybe a bit warmer of a smile when giving the greeting of the day, there was no indication or acknowledgement of our personal relationship.

The relationship becomes problematic when 1) that SGT becomes assigned under you, 2) that SGT is assigned to a position which requires a working relationship with you (i.e. you are the S1 and he is a Orderly Room NCO) AND your personal relationship affects your professional dealings, or 3) your personal relationship affects others at either of your units (i.e. the SGT becomes "overly familiar" with Officers, or the SGT sees you at the PX and addresses you by first name, thereby underming your authority with others, or - and I have seen this one - You stop by and "pull rank" to grab SGT out of his "normal duties" to hang out and grab lunch.)

If you avoid those three pitfalls, you should be fine. Remember, keep it professional at all times. Even when off duty and in "public."

Response by CPT Ian Stewart made Apr 15 at 2022 4:01 PM

2022-04-15T16:01:07-04:00

At one point in my career, I was assigned to a HQ that was overwhelmingly staffed by officers and DA civilians and had just a few enlisted personnel. At the time I was an NCO and my direct supervisor was a major. He and I became friends as did our families. On duty, we always maintained a professional relationship and referred to each other accordingly. Off duty, our families often socialized together and John and I would refer to each other by our first name. The off-duty exception was when we were with a group from the "office" at a social gathering - then it was Sir and "Stew" - as is common practice in the Army (i.e. for a commander or other leader to refer to subordinates under their command by their first name or a nickname).

Response by SGT Stephen Arrowsmith made Apr 22 at 2022 3:47 PM

2022-04-22T15:47:48-04:00

No. Fraternization doesn’t have anything to do with people of different ranks being friends. Prohibiting that would be discrimination. Fraternization deals with compromising the integrity and authority of the chain of command. Go visit your JAG office for how the regulations apply to you

Response by CPL Gary Martin made Apr 22 at 2022 10:41 PM

2022-04-22T22:41:26-04:00

I was in army in the 70’s and 80’s. I’m sure it still stand that officers and enlisted soldiers aren’t supposed to fraternize on or off duty. I’d hang out somewhere way off post.

Response by SSG Harry Herres made Apr 23 at 2022 10:48 PM

2022-04-23T22:48:41-04:00

As long as it does not affect your ability to lead and his abilitie to follow, no problem. My dad ,the LTC was close to his NCOs, they busted their butt for him and he did the same for them. He knew great NCOs made his job easier and got the job done! My OIC was a newbee. I helped him along to accept NCO info. We were the best. You fired at us we knew your location in 5 seconds. Out going on the way in 10 seconds. 1st Cav Div. Arty and 273rd GCR!

Response by SSgt Ricardo Lugo made Apr 24 at 2022 12:08 AM

2022-04-24T00:08:16-04:00

First of all, we should see the real reason we join the arm forces. As USA citizens we should be united in principles of freedom and pursuit of happiness. But when we examine the purpose of being a warrior of are nation; everything narrow down to the great responsibility; we have to defend the great American people of God life. Focusing on this vital roll; we need to be obedience on DOD regulations and war defense structure; to preserve and protect country; global American reach interest. As in the society every professional career has a structure authority to guaranty success. The arm forces need the rank structure to maintain and secure the Total Force Vision Victory. There can't be any gap of failure; when we are in the dimension of defending the great human resource of the American people of God. So God Help us comply with rules and training principles of war defense. In God We Trust / The Home of the Brave / One Nation Under God.

Response by SGT James Colbert made Apr 26 at 2022 10:27 AM

2022-04-26T10:27:52-04:00

well ...it was told to.me once that if you bothe should be in the same place at the same time, there really isn't much they can do. If being the LT and the DD...you can drive him home or vice versa....but it is not recommended to go together..therenis funny army rules against no and officers hanging out...becasue in Germany I was in a club with a bunch of enlisted.members and a German LT....and the DD was driving us back to the barracks and got in. a car accident on the highway..and they came after us because the enlisted were with an officer..make sure its on the dl for one and two.make sure you keep your I dotted and t crossed ..remember ..being active duty..your always and LT and he is always a sgt

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2022 1:02 PM

2022-04-27T13:02:04-04:00

I wouldn't say a problem so long as your not showing any favoritism. I'm friends with some of my LTs and a few of my dads OCS buddies when he went through and we will sit and chat as long as we are off duty so I would say as long as your not favoring him and keeping it off duty it shouldn't be a problem.

Response by SSG Gerald King made Apr 27 at 2022 10:40 PM

2022-04-27T22:40:51-04:00

When I, as a SSG, was serving as the ASA Advisor to an Armored Cavalry Unit, I made good friends with a Major who was the Artillery Advisor to the unit. We used to go out and have drinks from time to time. Also while at the same unit a SFC friend of mine and I formed a local chapter of the IOOB and we have members ranking from LTC to PFC's. We would get together for monthly meeting where rank did not exist. Only one person ever objected. A SGM refuse to play nice and was told by the LTC that if he did not want to play by the rules of the organization he could leave - and he did. This was 1974-'75

Response by CPT David Donovan made Apr 28 at 2022 9:11 AM

2022-04-28T09:11:56-04:00

Perhaps it was a different army 50 years ago during my active service, but a cautious junior officer would not let this happen because the future is long and you never know what assignments lie in that future. Fraternization rules are there to prevent conflicts from developing both present and future.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2022 12:42 PM

2022-04-29T12:42:33-04:00

If you were USAF, I'd say sure, no problem, but every branch has its protocols on fraternization.
USMC... absolutely not, but the Army, I'm not sure. But common sense would tell me that you should be fine as long as you are in civilian clothes and the friendship doesn't seep over into your on-duty behavior.
A very good friend became an officer; then, she became my commander. That was a fine line to walk. But she had a harder time making the transition than I did. I am older than her and had been in longer; maybe that was why I could separate the friend from the commander.

Response by PO2 Dusty Rhodes made Apr 30 at 2022 3:09 PM

2022-04-30T15:09:47-04:00

As a PO2, I often 'hit the beach' with our pilots and crew.

Response by CWO4 John Powe made May 11 at 2022 5:03 PM

2022-05-11T17:03:17-04:00

In almost every circumstance, it would be considered fraternization, only at unit functions would be acceptable. Even then it would not be advisable to allow the situation to become too friendly.
I spent 15 years as an enlisted, at Senior Chief Petty Officer (E-8) and was commissioned to CWO2. I served as a CWO for the next 15 years, as you can image I came into contact with many enlisted that I had been friends with and even had them serve with me.
I made the choice to not let those friendships exceed the limits set forth in the Navy's fraternization policies. I was lucky, in that, those friends were Senior NCOs and understood the necessity of maintaining that separation. That's not to say we never had a few beers or went fishing or hunting, but we did understand the line that we had to have.

Response by LtCol Matthew Rajkovich made Jun 24 at 2022 12:18 PM

2022-06-24T12:18:21-04:00

I'll jump in. Good advice here all around, but I can also add the following. Consider the fact that you're making it hard for you SGT friend if the perception exists that he has "his Zero-buddy" grease skids for him every time he has something good happen to him. ...or if he gets out of a jam.

The reality often gets overlooked because perceptions run the rumor mills. When you're an O-3 or O-4 this will magnify the issue. THAT being said; you can still remain in contact both professionally and recreationally so long as no outward signs of favoritism exist. Be wise. Be smart. Both of you must agree and understand the issue. Being "friendly" is one thing, but being "good friends" has it's concerns.

If you guys want to hit the pub one night or go fishing together. Do it in groups with some of his NCO buddies. Talk shop, share stories and opinions of the profession of arms and leadership. "Limit" your time (do it with a wink and a smile if you need to.) DON'T "get your drunk on" or stay too late and put yourself into a position of seeing and knowing things that would "obligate your duties as a commission officer to enforce." He shouldn't put you in that position, nor should you put him in a position to have to report or take action on stuff because of his rank and responsibility. Don't be in the right place at the wrong time.

You are now both valuable professional contacts with a solid history of faithful interaction. You are long-term assets to each other both as friends and as professionals. Don't F it up! (You can move in with each other after you got that DD-214.)
Great topic.

Response by COL Hugh Stirts made Jun 24 at 2022 2:00 PM

2022-06-24T14:00:28-04:00

I used to go grab a beer with my CSM. We did mostly BDE talk, but also just relaxed together. However I would have trouble with an 02 buddy drinking with an E5.

Response by CDR Jerry Wells made Jun 24 at 2022 8:15 PM

2022-06-24T20:15:08-04:00

You need to keep your distance. This relationship endangers the work relationship that is key to leadership and good order. If he is a good NCO he will understand that. While you can be friendly, you need to not hang together and socialize unless it is in some type of service organization which you have in common. With leadership comes the responsibility of not allowing any accusations or perception of misconduct to be made, which is very important. You are an officer, your job is to lead these men in combat or in the support of combat. You are not their friend, you are their boss. The mere point that you are asking should be a red flag in your mind.

Response by SGT Jeff Ansley made Jun 25 at 2022 2:49 AM

2022-06-25T02:49:44-04:00

It was the main reason I left the USMC. I went to college with a a lot of guys/gals that became future officers in the USMC. When I graduated, I did not receive a commission where as they did. I served my two years on active duty and went into the National Guard. I did not want to want to make it uncomfortable for any of these officers or myself - so I left. The reason I did not get commissioned was my fault and I did not violate the UCMJ -- I just was not ready to become an officer at the time of my college graduation.

Response by Maj Ted Mc Neel Sr. made Jun 26 at 2022 10:57 PM

2022-06-26T22:57:50-04:00

No fraternization beween Officers and Enlisted period!

Response by CW4 Larry Hampton made Jun 27 at 2022 3:25 PM

2022-06-27T15:25:40-04:00

I always like to look at this sort of problem in the extreme. The primary mission of our Armed Forces is to be prepared to defend this country against all enemies at all times. That preparation includes maintaining a fine-tuned, well-disciplined military force, even during peace time. Experience has taught us that in the heat of battle, lawful orders from the OIC must be followed by the subordinate without hesitation regardless how the subordinate feels about the order. This fraternization case theoretically could cause a battle and lives to be lost while the OIC explains the reasons for the order to his buddy, the subordinate.

Response by SPC Terry Martin made Jun 28 at 2022 3:10 AM

2022-06-28T03:10:07-04:00

Why not? Well, with discretion and respects depending on where you are. I've had a lifetime friendship with a Major until his passing, who I, as a SP4, was his Chief Clerk. Certainly, in Battalion it was highly structured, but I was invited to dinner various times.

Response by Col Tom Duquette made Jun 28 at 2022 5:39 PM

2022-06-28T17:39:58-04:00

When I was a young enlisted guy stationed in Germany back in the mid-70's I found that I had a lot more in common with the LT's than my fellow E-2/3/4's. I would occasionally play tennis with them or go skiing (pastimes my tanker cohorts did not do).

Despite trying to keep things on the down low people would find out and from that point forward anything positive that happened to me was tainted by this fraternization. Get promoted or win an award; it's because you pal around with officers. In retrospect I would have never hung out with those guys and I'd advise against your doing it too.

Response by TSgt Manuel Perez made Jul 29 at 2022 6:23 PM

2022-07-29T18:23:38-04:00

I was a NCO, and I knew Major in Germany, than I was stationed in England , and we met again, and was LTC and I was invited to his ceremony where he was promoted to Full Bird. We hang out after duty hours. If I seen on base/post , I would salute and gave him the respect as an officer. PS we worked different units too. Good luck

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2022 6:20 PM

2022-07-30T18:20:27-04:00

If you have to ask this question, then the answer is NO!

Response by PVT Mark Whitcomb made Sep 10 at 2022 1:10 PM

2022-09-10T13:10:06-04:00

I would not do it on post in uniform. Off post out of uniform who would care? As a 1LT I would think you should know it is why they have an Officers Club and a NCO club

Response by GySgt Jack Wallace made Sep 11 at 2022 8:49 AM

2022-09-11T08:49:19-04:00

Sure you can Lt .Just make sure your Sgt. friend knows the difference between duty time and off-duty time.My wife and I were invited to my Col. house several times, when out with a Lt, Gunny and SSgt. All different time and places. At NO time did I ever cross-over to call anyone other than by there rank first. Never forgot that Marine Corps protocol and military customs.

Response by Sgt Jake Middlebrook made Sep 11 at 2022 6:25 PM

2022-09-11T18:25:34-04:00

You are the officer. You are taking all the risk except the Sgt may be reassigned to the well known base (post) in Egypt. In general Fraternizing seems to be accepted at chapel and associated gatherings Officers are on occasion invited to enlisted bars for a drink usually on the Senior NCO
Fraternization becomes a criminal offense under Article 134 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice when the conduct "has compromised the chain of command, resulted in the appearance of partiality, or otherwise undermined good order, discipline, authority, or morale," but such charges can only be brought against an officer based on the elements of fraternization set forth in the Manual:
The accused was a commissioned or warrant officer;
The accused fraternized on terms of military equality with one or more certain enlisted members in a certain manner;
The accused then knew the person(s) to be (an) enlisted member(s);
The fraternization violated the custom of the accused's service that officers shall not fraternize with enlisted members on terms of military equality; and
Under the circumstances, the conduct of the accused was to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces or was of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces. Basically if the wrong
senior officer becomes aware of your relationship you are toast.
The choice is yours but do not be surprised by the results.

Response by MAJ Louis Giamo made Sep 11 at 2022 6:29 PM

2022-09-11T18:29:03-04:00

When I was on AD my best friend growing up was a Sgt (E5) in the 82nd Abn. I arrived at the 82nd after Korea and was in a different Bn. We hung out off post and never at an on post club. The Bn CO knew about our friendship and said that as long as we weren't in the same chain of command it didn't matter.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2022 3:06 PM

2022-09-13T15:06:11-04:00

Did they not teach you ANYTHING in OCS?

Response by SSgt W. Aaron Gregory made Sep 14 at 2022 5:41 AM

2022-09-14T05:41:25-04:00

IMHO, no. The relationship between officers and enlisted should have been painted quite clearly, multiple times during one's career. There are occasions, however, where it is unavoidable. For example, if you were both enlisted at one point - and arrived at a romantic relationship, got engaged, married, etc., and one later was promoted to the officer ranks. The military would ensure that you were in different commands at that point - but expect that you'd socialize together in some fashion.

But palsy-walsies? Having a beer together? Hanging out at Hooters together? No brah. Just, no. If you want to make the military a long-term career, I would reassess how my friendships manifest themselves. This could end your career. This is not to paint officers as toady, self-involved individuals. Far from it. This is coming from an enlisted person.

I would personally read your command's directives on the subject, *objectively*, and see where you honestly stand with things. Again, MHO.

Officers: if you are inviting enlisted over to your barbecues, hanging out, or catch yourself saying "I have a sergeant friend over at _____", you're going to be the one standing in front of the commander getting NJP at *least*. You know better. Officers hang out with officers. Enlisted, hang out with enlisted. If you want to keep good order and discipline, go deeper.

Company-grades hang out with company grades.
Field-grades hang out with field grades.

Enlisted folks have a model that could be followed as well:

Non-NCOs, with non-NCOs.
NCOs with NCOs.
SNCOs with SNCOs.
SSNCOs with SSNCOs.

In short - consort with your peers. A corporal will never be a peer to a captain. Or a major, or a general.

Captain: "Private Schmuckatelli, we're having a barbecue Sunday. You're invited to stop by". WRONG
Private: "Oh sir/ma'am, I appreciate that, but I am going to be busy all weekend." RIGHT

It is situations like this where officers are supposed to set the bar. Where the officers fail, the enlisted better step up. Someone's going to end up getting in trouble. The minute you start looking for shortcuts around this, you're at risk.

Response by 1SG James Kelly made Sep 14 at 2022 3:47 PM

2022-09-14T15:47:37-04:00

I was a SGT and she was a 1Lt we married and were married for 43 years.
Still miss her.

Response by Maj John Bell made Sep 14 at 2022 6:13 PM

2022-09-14T18:13:30-04:00

No.

Response by Lt Col Charlie Brown made Sep 15 at 2022 7:10 AM

2022-09-15T07:10:46-04:00

This is not a good idea. Especially with alcohol involved. Trust me on this. Your spouses are not in the same situation. They are civilians. If you go somewhere as a foursome, just be careful. I wouldn't drink and I wouldn't advertise what I was doing either.

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made Sep 16 at 2022 7:43 AM

2022-09-16T07:43:27-04:00

As usual, SFC Jason Boyd has offered the defining regulation regarding your situation, however, your and the Sergeant's maturity and judgement will determine whether the relationship can survive. One factor that will tend to temper the friendship is the fact that most social venues and command related events will officially preclude the two families from attending events together.

Response by SPC Greg Campbell made Oct 4 at 2022 1:27 PM

2022-10-04T13:27:39-04:00

Used to spend a lot of time in the jeep with the XOs so we had some common interests. Pretty much every winter weekend in Germany I'd be out skiing with him. No one said a thing. Went castle exploring with another.

Response by LTJG Kevin Matthews made Oct 4 at 2022 7:44 PM

2022-10-04T19:44:48-04:00

My dad was a Major and an ROTC instructor and lived around the corner from Master Sergeant Greenleaf. I played football with his three sons and we hung out all the time. We knew our fathers were in the Army but I couldn't tell you if one was senior to the other or not at that age. As long as you conduct yourselves as adults and professionals, you shouldn't have a problem. Seriously, that's all. You don't need to make it "official" unless one of you gets assigned to a position where they might be a direct supervisory issue, and maybe even not then (reference "We Were Soldiers". The Colonel and the Sergeant Major were friends and professionals.) Entertain at each other's homes, (unless you live on base and have nosy neighbors) and by all means let your wives be as close as they choose to be without all the "but we're officers and they're not" baggage. Hopefully they've evolved to having "spouses clubs" now instead of strictly officer/NCO/enlisted spouse organizations. Both of you may have stellar careers, and having a friend who is outside your official circle can be a benefit as you mature. I wish you the best.

Response by SFC Barbara Layman made Nov 20 at 2022 12:22 PM

2022-11-20T12:22:03-05:00

As a SFC, I was once assigned to the same organization as my LTC brother-in-law. He and my sister married while he was a ROTC Cadet before his commissioning as a 2LT.
In the work environment, he was always Col or LTC depending on the scenario, and I was always SGT Layman. We didn't discuss family activities in such a way that they would have linked us. No preo-planning, it just happened that way.
One afternoon, about 10 months after my arrival, his wife stopped at my desk to say 'hi' on her way to his office. It wasn't until that day that anyone had a clue we were related. The BN CDR considered himself to have been caught completely off guard because he had not been made aware of our relationship earlier.
I'm sure this isn't the first time such an occurrence has happened.

One just has to remember the environment in which you are engaged and keep interaction at the proper perspective.

Response by SFC Larry Orsborn made Dec 15 at 2022 9:55 AM

2022-12-15T09:55:40-05:00

You're an officer? You don't know how to look in the regulations?
Look up the regulation and read it. That way you can teach your soldiers the answer you discover and teach them how to search for a regulation. Also; it gives you defense.
Do the right thing; be a leader and search the regs for the answer. Lead from the front!