Hypothetical question: If I saw Bowe Bergdahl at the clothing and sales and called him a traitor to his face, would I get in trouble?

2016-05-18T13:27:07-04:00

Response by SGT Edward Wilcox made May 18 at 2016 1:29 PM

2016-05-18T13:29:39-04:00

Would you? Probably not. Should you? Absolutely. He hasn't been convicted of anything, yet. And, frankly, his legal troubles, and whether or not he really is a traitor, is none of your concern.

Response by CPT Mark Gonzalez made May 18 at 2016 1:32 PM

2016-05-18T13:32:22-04:00

You can say almost whatever you want to another Sergeant, but that doesn't make it right. Don't worry though if Bergdahl avoids going to prison, he is going to have people talking shit to him his entire life.

Response by SGT Casey Lovell made May 18 at 2016 1:41 PM

2016-05-18T13:41:12-04:00

We support Soldiers - needlessly passing judgement in public isn't only a detriment to your own image; it largely goes against the creed and beliefs that we live and operate by. Mind you, mind yours and let those assigned to decide, decide.

Response by SGT David T. made May 18 at 2016 1:48 PM

2016-05-18T13:48:09-04:00

Let the military justice system do its thing. He is innocent until proven guilty regardless of what we may think about him. Also, doing that in public is pretty unprofessional.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made May 18 at 2016 1:49 PM

2016-05-18T13:49:02-04:00

Possibly, Good Order and Discipline and all that. He hasn't been tried yet and found officially guilty. Not for You or I to Decide, Neither one of Us has all the Facts. Won't know until the Court Martial is Complete. Still trying to figure out why the Army recruited someone thrown out of the Coast Guard on a Mental though.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2016 1:49 PM

2016-05-18T13:49:25-04:00

I would highly recommend against doing that.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made May 18 at 2016 2:27 PM

2016-05-18T14:27:02-04:00

SGT Robert Cupp If he filed a complaint against you, you could be charged with Provoking Speech and Gestures or Disorderly Conduct. The question would be what, if anything, your chain of command would do about it. I would probably counsel you to refrain from doing it in the future, unless it had escalated into a physical altercation.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2016 2:36 PM

2016-05-18T14:36:24-04:00

Two words: NCO Creed.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2016 3:43 PM

2016-05-18T15:43:54-04:00

Until he is tried, and if he is found not guilty of everything, that is called Slander as well as Defamation. That means he could sue you in civil court. Whether or not he would win is another story, but could force you to defend yourself legally.

Now if/when he is convicted, then it's fair game!

Response by 1SG Cameron M. Wesson made May 18 at 2016 3:47 PM

2016-05-18T15:47:21-04:00

Would you get in trouble? Unknown

Could you get in trouble? Yes

Here is one of the reasons why....

The US Manual of Courts Martials Article 117—Provoking speeches or gestures

a. Text of statute. Any person subject to this chapter who uses provoking or reproachful words or gestures towards any other person subject to this chapter shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
b. Elements. (1) That the accused wrongfully used words or gestures toward a certain person;
(2) That the words or gestures used were provoking or reproachful; and (3) That the person toward whom the words or gestures were used was a person subject to the code.
c. Explanation. “provoking” and “reproachful” describe those words or gestures which are used in the presence of the person to whom they are directed and which a reasonable person would expect to induce a breach of the peace under the circumstances. These words and gestures do not include reprimands, censures, reproofs and the like which may properly be administered in the interests of training, efficiency or discipline in the armed forces.

Why do I know this? As a rowdy (and immature) 18 yo Infantryman... I had words with another soldier... I was a PFC and he was a SP4... that I considered... let us say... was less than marginal and wanting!

My PSG overheard the conversation, my language, tone, etc... and ripped my ass!

He then had me read that passage out of the MCM... its changed a bit.

He then said, "You were provoking a fight weren't you?" I admitted, "Roger Sergeant"... and he asked me if I wanted to be a "slick sleeve" private again... which I respond "Negative Sergeant"... to which he responded in a rather penetrating voice... "If you ever do that shit again you will be! CLEAR?" to which I responded "Roger Sergeant"

Needless to say it was "Crystal clear"... and I began reading other passages out of the that large book. Truthfully... it is amazing what you can be charged with.

My 2 cents

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2016 3:56 PM

2016-05-18T15:56:00-04:00

Hmmmmm good question...

Response by SFC Marcus Belt made May 18 at 2016 4:11 PM

2016-05-18T16:11:50-04:00

One way or another, SGT Bergdahl is NOT worth the energy.

Tomorrow in North Carolina the weather will probably be beautiful (spring time in Carolina is fantastic!), birds will be singing and life will go on...but he'll still be Bowe Bergdahl, and he has to wake up to THAT.

No matter what happens to him, for the rest of his life, you'd NEVER, for one second, think about trading places with him.

Response by SSG Leo Bell made May 18 at 2016 4:33 PM

2016-05-18T16:33:00-04:00

Very good question. I would think you would get in trouble for putting your hands on him, rather than saying something to him.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2016 4:45 PM

2016-05-18T16:45:55-04:00

Let's just say that I wouldn't do that.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2016 4:58 PM

2016-05-18T16:58:01-04:00

The real question to ask is as a non commissioned officer of the United States Army... Would it be professional of you to do so?

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made May 18 at 2016 5:20 PM

2016-05-18T17:20:08-04:00

I don't know, but I might be tempted to kick his ass

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2016 5:45 PM

2016-05-18T17:45:20-04:00

As much as we want to, just walk away. He is not worth our time or effort. Don't get in trouble because of him.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2016 6:11 PM

2016-05-18T18:11:28-04:00

Nope. He is already charged with desertion and misbehavior in front of the enemy. Only the GCM can convict him.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2016 6:25 PM

2016-05-18T18:25:06-04:00

Lol.. I probably wouldn't give him the time of the day.

Response by Capt Hansel Bumgarner made May 18 at 2016 6:51 PM

2016-05-18T18:51:48-04:00

While I can empathize with your feelings, I would say nothing. Let the system do its work. If there is one thing I have learned in almost 60 years, it's this:

We never know all the facts until after it's over and often as not, not even then.

While what we have been told tends to lead us to believe his full guilt, I can assure we we have not been told all the pertinent facts and probably have been intentionally led down a certain path by the media (which overwhelming dislikes the military).

Response by SFC Wayne Theilen made May 18 at 2016 7:07 PM

2016-05-18T19:07:29-04:00

Why? If saying that makes you feel good. Then take the chance. He will have to live with his actions forever.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2016 7:28 PM

2016-05-18T19:28:12-04:00

SGT Robert Cupp Saying anything could lead to bad unintended consequences. There is a certain woman that is a traitor in my mind, but if I saw her, I would say nothing. The Court-martial of Sgt. Bowe Berghadl has been delayed until next year.

A military judge decided Tuesday to delay Bergdahl’s trial from August until February 2107 to provide time for resolving disputes over the defense team’s access to classified documents.

Bergdahl, now 30, sat attentively in his dress blue formal uniform, his infantry cord looped under the epaulet on his right shoulder, during the brief hearing. The soldier from Hailey, Idaho, faces charges of desertion and misbehavior before the enemy. The latter charge is relatively rare and carries the potential of life in prison…

A February start would mean the court-martial could make headlines only weeks after the new commander-in-chief is sworn in as president.

Response by SGT Aric Lier made May 18 at 2016 7:34 PM

2016-05-18T19:34:16-04:00

I'm pretty sure counseling behind the rod and gun club is allowed. we do NOT follow the path of others.
.... I hear her say I am the Queen of battle.....

Response by A1C Lisa Casserly made May 18 at 2016 7:36 PM

2016-05-18T19:36:16-04:00

I don't know. But, I think you should not lower yourself to his level... should not get into that. It reflects poorly on YOU. And you don't need that.

Response by SSgt David Tedrow made May 18 at 2016 7:55 PM

2016-05-18T19:55:31-04:00

I think questions such as this one are only asked to provoke comments. The question does nothing for anyone but get a rise out of people and up his points for asking the question.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2016 8:48 PM

2016-05-18T20:48:39-04:00

Probably, he could cry harassment. But I'd do it anyway.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2016 9:16 PM

2016-05-18T21:16:37-04:00

First we don't know what the lawyers and investigators have on his situation. Second, though you may not respect him as individual soldier, give him the benefit of doubt Third he hasn't had his day in court. We are all presumed innocent until proven guilty. Lastly don't lower yourself to that level it's very unprofessional, and only degrades your self as SGT. If found guilty he will have his cross to bear.

Response by Capt Michael Greene made May 18 at 2016 11:42 PM

2016-05-18T23:42:24-04:00

Maybe you would not get in trouble. But if I saw such a hypothetical confrontation calling Bergdahl a traitor to his face, I would be in trouble for sure because I might not be able to restrain myself from instantaneously laying into the accuser physically and viciously. Let's hope it doesn't happen.
POW issues are close to me and I study them a bit more than most people. My dad was POW, we have several close friends who were POW, counselors of POWs have told me (without names) of the degradations and tortures POWs endured. Just hearing some of those stories would give you nightmares. So I am personally invested in this issue.
Bergdahl was thoroughly investigated by experts. The Major General who interviewed 57 witnesses and had access to all the information, including secrets, said Bergdahl was "idealistic and unrealistic" and did not deserve jail. Another witness from the Joint Personnel Recovery Agency was quite experienced, and testified that Bergdahl endured the worst torture conditions during his five years as a captive of the Taliban, that anyone has endured in 60 years, since Vietnam. As he testified, he JPRA expert teared up and said he had great respect for Bergdahl. Bergdahl resisted--he continued his war as a POW should.
Bergdahl's return was used by some as a way to tarnish Obama. Certain media and certain political leaders spread so many accusations, lies and disinformation that Bergdahl was damned for life. He'll probably have to move to another country just to avoid being killed by some nutcase.
There is another important issue that I've never seen anyone bring up. We did not prosecute VN POWs, even when it was well known that they willingly had deserted their base and "gone over" to collaborate with the enemy.
Another very important principle. Our POWs need to know the USA will never lose faith with them. If Bergdahl goes to prison, it would be too easy for a future enemy to tell a future POW "Now that we've forced you to appear in our video, your government will send you to prison, so you might as well defect."
The only thing that should matter is that we kept our promise to all soldiers. We got him back.

Response by SFC Mike Edwards made May 19 at 2016 1:58 AM

2016-05-19T01:58:41-04:00

No. You won't and shouldn't. You are expressing a figure of feeling at that moment. As long as you say something. But don't eyeball the person, then you are not direct anything towards that, the individual.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2016 6:39 AM

2016-05-19T06:39:03-04:00

Thats why we have civilians. We are professionals NON COMMISSIONED OFFICERS!! Remember we dont live by our opions of people or situations we live the army values. He will be judged!!!! Just take care of your soldiers and be the best you can be.

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made May 19 at 2016 7:40 AM

2016-05-19T07:40:17-04:00

You might but think about how good you would feel calling him what he is to his face. Public shame is a powerful tool. Bergdahl could use a face full of public shame.

Response by MAJ Keira Brennan made May 19 at 2016 8:58 AM

2016-05-19T08:58:14-04:00

I am going to through this out here. What happened to the presumption of innocence in American jurisprudence? Not that I don't think that the Governments case rock solid. I'll save the name calling until the jury completes its job (again, I think the Government has a solid case).

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2016 10:29 AM

2016-05-19T10:29:54-04:00

Its not worth the hassle. The outcome of this trial is going to make most Soldiers angry. The kid did a stupid thing but he's probably been punished enough. I don't think h e deserves to wear the uniform anymore but I don't think he should be in jail either.

Response by SFC Joseph McCausland made May 19 at 2016 11:47 AM

2016-05-19T11:47:55-04:00

In a civil court...Looking at it from a purely "legal" point of view...No, your statement (in its self) would be protected under the Freedom of Speech Clause of the 1st Amendment of our US Constitution.... however, Article 117 of the U.C.M.J may see it differently.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2016 1:37 PM

2016-05-19T13:37:01-04:00

I'd be shocked if you saw him on a Clothing and Sales, since Army bases don't have them. You may want to try going to a Military Clothing Sales instead. I'd bet they are out of Bergdahls too.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made May 19 at 2016 2:30 PM

2016-05-19T14:30:42-04:00

It would be unprofessional of anyone. Innocents or not!

Response by SSG Richard Reilly made May 19 at 2016 2:55 PM

2016-05-19T14:55:24-04:00

Provoking speech and Gesture....maybe.

Response by TSgt Jennifer Disch made May 19 at 2016 5:12 PM

2016-05-19T17:12:30-04:00

Probably. Disorderly conduct. Article 15 worthy.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made May 19 at 2016 5:30 PM

2016-05-19T17:30:05-04:00

Honestly, I would just leave it alone. Anything anyone does to harass him will only play in his favor.

Response by SSG Samuel Sohm made May 19 at 2016 5:43 PM

2016-05-19T17:43:33-04:00

Whether he is guilty or not is for the courts to decide, not for you. If you do that, then you are saying anyone who is on trial is already guilty. If I were innocent and on trial I would prefer the presumption of innocence be in my favor and that others would wait and let those who understand the law judge my actions.

Bottom Line: I would never say anything to SGT Bergdahl, and neither should you. I would insist upon the fairest, most professional, most iron clad trial he can get. That way it will stick all the way through if/when he is convicted.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2016 6:02 PM

2016-05-19T18:02:33-04:00

First off regardless of your feeling towards him and whether or not you think is a traitor, you have to remember you are a Non-Commisioned Officer so you must remain tactful. Also do not forget as much as you hate it, that you are peers and if you want to berate him ensure there are no lower enlisted soldiers. Also he is a touchy subject and anything you do or say to him will most likely be brought upon you. Do what your rank can afford but remain professional. Although he might now deserve it. Treat him with the dignity and respect of an NCO.

Response by CW4 Scott Hyde made May 19 at 2016 6:07 PM

2016-05-19T18:07:18-04:00

Pretty original. I doubt anyone has mentioned that to him. He probably knows the legal system better than you at this point so you could probably just ask him or run by JAG for legal advice. Regardless of the answer, your actions do nothing but make you look foolish and set a bad example for your peers and subordinates to follow. Last, what do you hope to gain from doing so?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 19 at 2016 8:53 PM

2016-05-19T20:53:00-04:00

Definitely don't share any state secrets with him. Just saying.

Response by CPL Randy Bautista made May 20 at 2016 12:09 AM

2016-05-20T00:09:44-04:00

CL yes bro yes all the way... It's to commercial even if it's on post it would get blown out of proportion in a heart beat... Then you will be fighting to keep your career...

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2016 1:03 AM

2016-05-20T01:03:20-04:00

I'd do a whole lot more than say something to him, I'm afraid, so I'm not going into Clothing and Sales, just in case he's really in there!!!

Response by SFC Joseph Weber made May 20 at 2016 2:27 AM

2016-05-20T02:27:15-04:00

I wish everyone would stop taking about this guy. Let him disappear. Every time someone mentions him or he is on CNN or some other news service he gets publicity. I would ignore him no matter where I saw him. Don;t waste your breath.

Response by Sgt Bruce Taylor made May 20 at 2016 2:35 AM

2016-05-20T02:35:46-04:00

Give him a cupcake and tell him "I got you this cause I heard how you liked dessert more than anybody."

Response by CPO David Sharp made May 20 at 2016 5:07 AM

2016-05-20T05:07:18-04:00

He has not been convicted so that is possible. BUT, consider this, there is the letter of the Law and the Spirit of the Law. I can wait until the Court makes it the Letter of the Law and removes all question.

Response by SGT Rick Ash made May 20 at 2016 6:26 AM

2016-05-20T06:26:17-04:00

I'm retired, I would have to hit him in the mouth. AWOL chickenshit!

Response by SSG Leroy Farmer made May 20 at 2016 5:13 PM

2016-05-20T17:13:20-04:00

I think he knows what we all think of him. You shouldn't waste your breath on him.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 2:13 PM

2016-05-21T14:13:52-04:00

There would be no reason to. He knows what he is and what he has done. At the end of the day he has to sleep at night knowing that his actions has cause the death of his brothers.

Response by SFC Shane Funkhouser made May 21 at 2016 2:42 PM

2016-05-21T14:42:03-04:00

As much as we all despise him your doing yourself a diservice by allowing your emotions to overcome your professionalism. As an MP serving while Abu graihb happened it was my job to hold the MP's involved and also to escort a couple to Germany. If you were in country at the time you know prior to this incident things had calmed considerably. After the incident was exposed our troops had hell unleashed on them. In my opinion those soldiers where responsible for those deaths. But regardless it was my duty to treat them as I would any other detainee. I've done detainee ops on mutiple deployments I've held detainees directly responsible for ied attacks I've held pedophiles and rapists and murderers. All of them as digested as I was I maintained my professionalism and required the same from my soldiers. It is not our place as soldiers to harass those accused even if we know for a fact they are guilty. Maintain your professionalism and expect the same from your troops.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 22 at 2016 3:55 PM

2016-05-22T15:55:54-04:00

If I were you, I wouldn't say a thing. It's just an inlet for more publicity and you'll be the one who looks like the fool. Besides that, he needs his day in court, and approaching him and saying anything negative to him is convicting him before he has a chance to defend himself in court. You're able to express your views in this forum, if you wants one, and blow off some steam. I know I have.

Response by SPC LaVerne Hatch made May 23 at 2016 2:36 PM

2016-05-23T14:36:30-04:00

Sgt,
Under Article 91, of the UCMJ, "treats with contempt or is disrespectful in language or deportment
toward a warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer while that officer is in the execution of his office;"
If you notice that unlike Article 90 the NCO, Warrant Officer or Petty Officer does not have to superior to you in rank for you to be found guilty of Violating Article 91. Your chain of command will make the final determination of how to address the situation for violating the UCMJ, which could go as high as general court-martial.

Response by MSgt Steve Shook made May 27 at 2016 4:08 PM

2016-05-27T16:08:02-04:00

Unfortunately, you could be charged under Article 117 Provoking Speeches or Gestures and he is exactly the type of weasel to run and tell.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2016 9:34 AM

2016-05-31T09:34:54-04:00

Why make you self a lightning rod for your own controversy? For you to label him as a traitor and be right in you alligations, you would need first hand knowledge of his actions while in the company of the enemy. If he share any information of life and or activities on his FOB, then that could earn him the title of traitor. But, you have no right to pass judgment over his actions, until he faces the courts for his actions. Although, personally, if any service members lost their lives looking for / trying to rescue him, then my opinion is that he should also face murder charges. Just the same as any civilian would face murder for the death of anyone while in the commission of a felony. For if he is convicted of any of the charges, they are all felonies. And if they could successfully add murder charges to the list of charges, then he would never see the light of day outside of prison cell, again. Do not pass judgment, until judgment has been passed by those charged with that authority. BTW, great, thought provoking question, thank you.

Response by SPC Burt Epps made May 31 at 2016 9:58 AM

2016-05-31T09:58:44-04:00

I would imagine that would be "conduct unbecoming of a an NCO"! While I don't disagree with the THOUGHT, I wouldn't take that course of action. Maintain your professionalism, SGT.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2016 3:18 PM

2016-05-31T15:18:35-04:00

Well, this is far from PC, but my answer is simple:
If he wanted to be a little bitch about it and cry harassment, then yes, you could. But otherwise, probably not.

Response by MGySgt James Forward made Jun 10 at 2016 1:53 PM

2016-06-10T13:53:06-04:00

Sgt to Sgt discussion: same rank, not INHO. Semper Fi.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2016 6:48 PM

2016-08-01T18:48:12-04:00

He has not been convicted and therefore is still holding the rank as SGT. Therefore so long as he was present when you said that, you could be in violation of § 891. Art. 91. UCMJ.

Response by SFC John Hatton made Feb 4 at 2018 11:21 AM

2018-02-04T11:21:54-05:00

Yes, you should. The proper Army was is to beat his sorry butt in the parking lot. I strongly recommend a sky mask.