How would you react if someone knocked on your door to check if you shaved or not, on a weekend?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 06:29:08 -0400

we are required to shave on weekends. Say for example it's Saturday. Also, you live off-post. How would you react if someone knocked on your door to check if you shaved or not?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2014 6:36 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 06:36:10 -0400

Shocked. I dont think that would ever happen and if it did it would be the first.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2014 6:38 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 06:38:55 -0400

I've always excepted my actions, right or wrong, smart or.......

Response by SGT William B. made Mar 30 at 2014 6:39 AM

SGT William B. — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 06:39:57 -0400

SFC,<br><br>First, they'd have to get past the endless hedge maze (The Maze of Madness), then ford the moat that surrounds my house (The Trench of Iniquity), and then somehow beat my man-eating guard dog (Fluffy) to reach the front door.<br><br>Seriously though, in the odd event it happened and I didn't shave, I'd probably just take my punishment like anyone else.  If it's the regulation and it's widely known that it's now punitive, there really shouldn't be any question as to whether or not you should do it.  <br><br>However, as a reservist, I wonder how strict reserve commands will be in a regular TPU status; in my experience, it's been very rare that a sergeant will get ordered to conduct health and welfare inspections for a junior soldier.  Not only are you potentially cutting into that NCO's regular civilian work and home life, but the distance is sometimes incredible (I travel 170+ miles to my drill station).  Would that NCO be placed on orders to ensure he's paid for the time he's taking off of work?  There are a lot of variables here that are hard to account for.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2014 8:23 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 08:23:39 -0400

I have visited my soldiers for many reasons through out my years of being a NCO but to see if they have shaved now that is a new one.

I can see it now CQ's walk the barracks handing out counselings because soldiers failed to shave.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2014 9:24 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 09:24:15 -0400

I'd have my wife answer the door on the weekend and tell everyone I'm upstairs shaving.  

Response by 1SG Russell Carey made Mar 30 at 2014 9:29 AM

1SG Russell Carey — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 09:29:56 -0400

When I was active duty, it was required to be shaved at all times, while on leave and on weekends. If I went on post on the weekend I made sure I was clean shaven, I'm surprised this is a new concept, be professional at all times.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2014 11:54 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 11:54:09 -0400

Does this new regulation also pertain to reservists and NG? I typically don't shave between drills and right now I look like Tom Hanks in Castaway.

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Mar 30 at 2014 1:08 PM

SGM Matthew Quick — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 13:08:57 -0400

Depends on the time of day...if in the am, let's say 0900, I may have already shaved at midnight thirty and it could have already grown in.<br><br>If it's noon, I'd invite them in for some wings and a beer and we'd discuss it.<br><br>Maybe the unit should have weekend formations and they wouldn't need to send "courtesy patrols" 45 miles off post (I live that far away) to check for individual shaving routines.<br><br>Better yet, the formations could be via FaceTime or Skype...with a good high-speed connection, leaders could visually inspect each Soldier for compliance.<br><br>I'm gonna go ahead and WAIT and see what's published and what commander's implement. ;)

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Mar 30 at 2014 1:33 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 13:33:54 -0400

I would be sorely tempted to beat the holy wee wee out of them. I shave everyday but at my good damn time. Also when I joined the Navy we were allowed to have beards and it was pretty common in isolated duty like Adak, AK and on Subs.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2014 4:18 PM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 16:18:02 -0400

Just the thought of this makes me frustrated but if this did happen more than likely they would have woken me up and of course if I come to the door I'm not going to be shaven cause I just woke up and having said that then it makes me think that the military will say what time I have to be up on the weekend so I can shave in time for a possible inspection which is beyond dumb

Response by SFC A.M. Drake made Mar 30 at 2014 4:45 PM

SFC A.M. Drake — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 16:45:26 -0400

I use the time honored adage: "Adapt and overcome"

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2014 5:18 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 17:18:01 -0400

I understand the intent but I feel that it falls short of the mark. I for one never shave when I am off duty. This gives my face a break from the razor and allows for one less thing to do in the morning. A break from my weekday routine. I am definitely someone that has to shave everyday (twice a day if I am pulling a long Op) but on leave you can forget about it. I understand that we are supposed to be Soldiers 24/7 and that the writing is on the wall that OPTEMPO is slowing down and this rule is an attempt to keep the edge or keep us busy. I get that bored Soldiers get into trouble and that the real reason we shave is twofold, one it is a sign of discipline and two it adds to our "Soldierly" appearance. But do I think that Soldiers should shave on their day off? Emphatically no. Maybe the concession could be if you are going on post for whatever reason. What about Soldiers in the Reserves and National Guard? Is it expected to be enforced on our citizen Soldiers? Just my 2 cents. Good questions.

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Mar 30 at 2014 8:05 PM

CMSgt James Nolan — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 20:05:46 -0400

I should hope that emissaries not be sent out to knock on doors.....with that new revision to the regs (and I must admit, I am not entirely schooled on Army regs), I would venture to say that were I traveling to Post, I would have to comply (perhaps with a heavy heart-me beard grows thick) or face the wrath of a roaming 1SG! That was the case on our last deployment....captive audience on a small base. Preaching to the choir, I am sure. What I have learned is there are some things I can deal with, others I cannot. Pick those battles wisely. Discretion is oftentimes the better part of valor.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2014 8:17 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 20:17:29 -0400

I was a specialist before I became a Cavalry Scout.  I am thus doubly capable of evading notice. If all of the Army's problems are solved and personnel are available after budget cuts to fan out into the diverse zip codes of the off-post community, I am confident in my ability to camouflage myself, my equipment and my dastardly stubble to avoid detection. 

Response by Sgt John Anderson made Mar 30 at 2014 10:11 PM

Sgt John Anderson — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 22:11:13 -0400

In Jacksonville NC, old bored A-hole Marines troll the local walmart and other "hot spots" just waiting for the chance to catch someone who they suspect is a Marine with a 5 o'clock shadow so he can re-live his glory days by chewing out that unsuspecting victim in public. right in front of civilians, your girlfriend, or even your visiting family. so it is no surprise they want to now come knock on your door and check up on your shaving habits.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2014 10:22 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 22:22:52 -0400

I think we have more important fish to fry. IMHO, this is just overboard. People with waivers for facial hair get a pass as well. So many conceivable scenarios and too many pressing issues to harass people at home

Response by SGT Suraj Dave made Mar 30 at 2014 10:39 PM

SGT Suraj Dave — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 22:39:31 -0400

At Ft. Campbell it was always a post reg to shave on weekends and leave. The only way you would get busted is if you hung around the PX or Commissary where courtesy patrol is.

In my 4 years in the U.S. Army, I never shaved over the weekend except during AIT/Basic and weekend staff duty.

The problem here, is realizing that soldiers are human beings. Not machines of morality. If you cant enforce a rule, no one will follow it. Every once in a whole someone gets caught standing outside smoking a cigarette unshaved on the weekend, just like how every once in a while someone gets caught downloading music/movies and get lawsuits. Because it cant be enforced very well, and the risk is low, people will continue doing it.

Also, I am almost sure that shaving every single day isn't good for your face. It needs a break from the razor.

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2014 10:41 PM

1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 22:41:29 -0400

"Get a life."<br>

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2014 10:48 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 22:48:22 -0400

What an opportunity to employ veterans and retirees! They could collect a bounty for every one they catch.

Response by SFC James Baber made Mar 30 at 2014 11:45 PM

SFC James Baber — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 23:45:38 -0400

1st depending on what time of day it is, I like to sleep in on Saturdays and that sometimes can be as late as noon, so if someone knocks at my door and wakes me up, I will willingly tell them I just woke up and I will shave as necessary when I am fully coherent, thanks for reminding me and slam the door, have a nice day.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2014 11:56 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 23:56:26 -0400

I would open my door look at them then close my door.

Response by Cpl Ray Fernandez made Mar 31 at 2014 12:53 AM

Cpl Ray Fernandez — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 00:53:10 -0400

My reaction may include swift and blinding violence. Chances are I wouldn't be on base on a weekend, and if anyone went to where I was staying that weekend I wouldn't be happy about it since they'd be wasting my time and their time.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2014 1:56 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 01:56:46 -0400

We just had an NCOPD last week on the slides released by big Army. The shaving 24-7 thing did not make it into the new reg as it was explained to us. Also the sideburns having to be at the top of the ear did not make it in either which in my case is a huge plus! I'd suggest looking at the slides and maybe going over this with your NCO's as there are questions that still need be answered and it's a pretty good indicator of what is actually coming! here is the link.

http://www.armyg1.army.mil/hr/uniform/default.asp

Uniform Policy - Army G-1 Human Resources

Mission and updated information for the Uniform Policy group of the United States Army G-1.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2014 8:12 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 08:12:08 -0400

Ok, maybe I'm showing ignorance here, but to my knowledge the only information that's been released is the Leaders Training slideshow.

In the slides, nothing was specifically atated about shaving off duty. The wear of civiliqn attire on duty and outside of one's residence off duty was mentioned, but only that a professional appearance will be maintained. Of course, local commanders and garrisons establish more specific guidelines concerning a "dress code" whole on post and in government facilities.

I guess the point I'm making Is this: facial hair is by no means unprofessional, in general. Furthermore, it would be gross misuse of manpower and funds to police every Soldier's facial hair while off duty. This topic itself has rapidly become a point of contention.

As far as my two cents; I see no need to be clean shaven off duty. It is not going to have any impact on the wear and function of my M40 Protective mask, nor any impact on how the public or host nation views the United States or my organization.

Response by SFC Vernon McNabb made Mar 31 at 2014 9:54 AM

SFC Vernon McNabb — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 09:54:39 -0400

Let me answer your question with another question. By not shaving when I am off0duty and not in unifom, does that make me less disciplined? No! Absolutely not. Besides, if I am inside my home, on the weekend, I could just as easily tell whoever is dumb enough to knock on my door that I just woke up. My weekend, my business!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2014 10:10 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 10:10:18 -0400

"No no no. No Army here today. You go."

Response by CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2014 10:12 AM

CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 10:12:10 -0400

If they're knocking on my door on a weekend, living off post. I must have been doing other things to create such an effort to come after my for petty things on my own time. Now if I lived in the barracks.. I can see it happening with some of the toxic NCOs there are out here who just want to push their thumb down on their soldiers.

Response by SFC Daniel Faires made Mar 31 at 2014 3:58 PM

SFC Daniel Faires — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 15:58:00 -0400

I really like this discussion as I do not shave on the weekends nor do I shave when I am on leave. unless the better half tells me to. Now that being said i have noticied some folks have posted about a health and welfare inspection in your off post house. my exact wrods would be as foolws " get a warrant" it is against army policy to conduct a health and welfare inspection in a Soldiers personal off post dwelling.( i didnt believe it either until i actually read it in the reg) unless there is reasonable suspicion for self harm , harming others or a warrant is being served. so yes now i sounded like a E4Mafia Barracks Lawyer .. Seriously though the new slideshow and alaract that goes with it says one thing about it...outside of your domicile you must present a professional image ...in other words in your house you can look as scuzzy as you want to...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2014 8:53 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 20:53:23 -0400

I'd answer the door in shower shoes and my ACH and laugh and they busted their ass to run away.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2014 10:13 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 22:13:27 -0400

AR 190-22 tells us that Military authority ends at the front gate of the installation.  Thus, like with housing inspections, the authority to enter a private residence off post requires the same as for anyone else (as required by the 4th Amendment to the US Constitution); probable cause, a properly signed and executed warrant (from a CIVILIAN judge), and executed by CIVILIAN law enforcement.  So if you either refused to answer your door or refused entry, there is nothing more that can be done without that warrant.<div><br></div><div>Ordering someone residing off post to submit to any type of inspection (without probable cause and/or warrant) would, on its face, be considered an unlawful order.  I'm not an attorney, but I'm pretty sure JAG would never sign-off on that one.</div><div><br></div><div>The only thing really left to a leader would be a 100% recall at any given time to ensure that everyone is shaved and dressed appropriately.  But then you would have those on leave, whom the regulation covers as well.  So how do you enforce THAT?  You cannot force someone to get on Skype because the government isn't paying for internet access, the internet device (phone/computer), etc.  Someone isn't going to come back from vacation with the family so that his squad leader can check to see if he is shaved.  You cannot recall Soldiers enroute during a PCS.</div><div><br></div><div>This is a can of worms that has been opened.</div>

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Apr 1 at 2014 8:09 AM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Tue, 01 Apr 2014 08:09:58 -0400

SFC Melendez, Here is my answer: challenge and password or none shall pass but seriously, I would answer the door and just say I haven't shaved yet.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2014 9:36 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Apr 2014 09:36:07 -0400

(b) Facial hair. Males will keep their face clean-shaven when in uniform, or in civilian clothes on duty. Mustaches

are permitted. If worn, males will keep mustaches neatly trimmed, tapered, and tidy. Mustaches will not present a

chopped off or bushy appearance, and no portion of the mustache will cover the upper lip line, extend sideways beyond

a vertical line drawn upward from the corners of the mouth (see lines C and D of Figure 3–1), or extend above a

parallel line at the lowest portion of the nose (see line B of Figure 3–1). Handlebar mustaches, goatees, and beards are

not authorized. If appropriate medical authority allows beard growth, the maximum length authorized for medical

treatment must be specific. For example, “The length of the beard cannot exceed 1/4 inch” (see Training Bulletin

Medical (TB Med) 287). Soldiers will keep the growth trimmed to the level specified by the appropriate medical

authority, but are not authorized to shape the hair growth (examples include, but are not limited to goatees, “Fu

Manchu,” or handlebar mustaches).

Where does it have anything in here about weekends? it still says while On duty or in civilian cloths on duty. Same as it always has.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2014 9:37 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 01 Apr 2014 09:37:51 -0400

The following is copied from the new 670-1. Where does it say anything about weekends. It clearly states the same thing it always has, while "on duty" or "in civilian cloths on duty". looking for a second opinion on this.