How will the military handle transgendered and APFT/AR 600-9?

2016-06-30T23:27:28-04:00

With the lifting of the ban on transgender service members openly serving, I have a serious question about the APFT standards as well as the Ht/Wt standards.

If a biological male SM declares himself to be a transgender (aka identifies as female) does that SM get to take the APFT based on the female standards for his(her) age?
And do the female standards for body fat percentage apply as well?

Has anyone really thought about the impact of this? How does this work? As an NCO, how do I score an APFT for this individual? Do I need a female NCO to tape this SM? How does SHARP adjust?

Response by 2LT Ronald Reimer made Jun 30 at 2016 11:42 PM

2016-06-30T23:42:05-04:00

HaHaHaHa......Sorry. I am SO glad that I am out. (Out of the service, not out of the closet. Not in the closet, either. Not that that matters~Jerry Seinfeld).

Response by MSG Lance Kelly made Jul 1 at 2016 12:36 AM

2016-07-01T00:36:31-04:00

Wow! You just gave me a lot to think about. I work in JAG and can guarantee you that these questions will come to me real soon. As much as I would like to know the answers I am most likely going to be doing the research myself. Thanks for bringing up the topic. I also like SFC Zach's idea of a pass/fail system. The whole point system I think is really only valued if you are seeking promotion points or maybe an evaluation bullet.

Response by SSG Daniel Deiler made Jul 1 at 2016 12:47 AM

2016-07-01T00:47:50-04:00

I don't care what they identify as. If they are a male they will be scored as such as they possess the hormones and physical characteristics of a male and vice versa for females. Since when is ANY Soldier evaluated based upon how they "feel?!?"

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2016 12:58 AM

2016-07-01T00:58:32-04:00

The Army does not really recognize gender anymore. Although it has still yet to be hashed out officially, they will take the APFT based on the sex they were born with.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2016 2:03 AM

2016-07-01T02:03:31-04:00

I think that it shall not be long before guidance is published on the subject but pending that, my assumption will be to utilize current regulations which state that the gender the SM is born with is how they will be recorded on all administrative matters.
Not to worry though, this will be a pretty rare occurance, and when it does come up, I am sure the entire CoC will weigh in on what their guidance will be.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2016 4:51 AM

2016-07-01T04:51:19-04:00

We were discussing this as an office the other day. The general consensus was...
Male identifies as a female when entering the military:
1) For records purposes a transgender male will be addressed as a female, be subject to female grooming standards, allowed to use female latrine, etc.
2) Use the female scoring standards for APFT: Theoretically this should be easy for the transgender male because regardless of hormone therapy their bone/body structure is still male and the male center of gravity is higher than in females. This is why females have less difficulty with the sit-up event (their hips give then a lower center of gravity) and why males have an easier time with he push-up event.
3) Use the female scoring standards for HT/WT. This is where the major issues come into play. Females have higher body fat % allowance but their measurements are not designed for the male physique. Additionally, the transgender male will have to weigh less as the female weight standard allows considerably less weight than the male standard. The weight will be difficult to meet for some transgender males.

Female identifies as a male when entering the military:
1) For records purposes a transgender female will be addressed as a male, be subject to male grooming standards, allowed to use male latrine, etc.
2) Use the male scoring standards for APFT: Theoretically this should be hard for the transgender female because regardless of hormone therapy their structure is still female. Remember the explanation in #2 above.
3) Use the male scoring standards for HT/WT. Again, this is where the major issues come into play. Males have lower body fat % allowance but their measurements are not designed for the female physique. Additionally, the transgender female will have to weigh more as the male weight standard allows considerably more weight than the female standard. The weight will be difficult to meet for some transgender females as there is a minimum weight for both males and females in military service.

In reality, for the reasons mentioned above, and reasons yet to be known, it will be years of trail and error on military leadership to come up with new/additional standards for transgender individuals.

Response by SSG Leo Bell made Jul 1 at 2016 5:43 AM

2016-07-01T05:43:06-04:00

That's a good question, I bet the one who made the decision to changed the rules for them to identify themselves as male or female forgot to think about that one. I know the uniforms are different between males and females also. What will the decision on that be? When it comes to work uniforms verses dress uniforms?

Response by SGT David T. made Jul 1 at 2016 7:44 AM

2016-07-01T07:44:23-04:00

As always, the services will have to figure out how to make it work. The services always adapt to the changing situation and this will be no different.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2016 9:39 AM

2016-07-01T09:39:19-04:00

I would think that initially everything will stay the same, just like when same sex marriage was allowed they did not qualify for things like BAH. However, down the road I am sure they will make more changes to further accommodate these new challenges that our leaders now face. As a military police officer I had the same questions about searching a male suspect if he identified as a male, or if he accused me of sexually assaulting him because he was a homosexual. As for now, use your best judgement and treat them all the same as you always have. I would like to think that they will base it on their birth certificate and leave it at that. I served twelve years in the military and never came across a transgendered Soldier. Has anyone run into any?

Response by 1SG Paul DeStout made Jul 1 at 2016 10:14 AM

2016-07-01T10:14:21-04:00

I feel that for the APFT and HT/WT, the army will come up with new standards for transgender, so you will have Male, Female and Transgender standards. It will be somewhere in-between male and female standards. This way the military will recognize that the person is not completely male or female but both (because of hormone therapy). These standards will only apply to Soldiers on hormone therapy so male Soldiers cant come to the APFT and state that they are identifying as female today (we know there are Soldiers that would try that). Since the military is going to a single room with common area concept with the barracks, I dont think that will be an issue either.

BLUF: I glad I am retired!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2016 10:33 AM

2016-07-01T10:33:40-04:00

This is a great question. I feel with this ban being lifted may lead to getting rid of the current APFT and go to more of a tactical military movement type test such as shuttle runs, buddy carries and other events.

Response by SGT Laura Delgadillo made Jul 1 at 2016 10:51 AM

2016-07-01T10:51:34-04:00

Hi, transgender service member here, and to answer your question service members will take APFT according to the gender on their ERB. Service members who are transitioning will not be able to update their gender on their ERB until approved by a PCM who has stated that the service member has competed the required steps to transition such as hormone replacement therapy.

Any other questions?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2016 11:09 AM

2016-07-01T11:09:59-04:00

I will grade all males on male standards until such time as legal documents are presented that they are now legally declared females. Same with females transitioning to male. And, an MFR from their provider stating that they have completed the required medical steps to change their gender. Then, once those documents are presented to me, then they will be afforded all the rights and privileges therein and held to those gender standards.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2016 12:17 PM

2016-07-01T12:17:16-04:00

Just because the ban has been lifted, it doesn't mean all the policies have been adjusted. This will take time and every service will come
out with their own policies. Be patient, it will work itself out. At the same time, I recommend that you engage your leadership and become part of the solution. Provide recommendations for policy changes that are inclusive and empowering.

Response by PO3 Steven Sherrill made Jul 1 at 2016 12:57 PM

2016-07-01T12:57:18-04:00

SGT Private RallyPoint Member Split the difference between the male and female standards at a given age, and call it the TG standards. Biological females who identify as males will have to work harder to maintain standards, and biological males who identify as females will have loosened standards. They would have to add measurement standards such as hips and chest to the male standard to compensate for the new standards in the Body Fat Measurement, but that is about it. Otherwise you are looking at, your APFT is based on what is under one's PT Belt rather than how one gender identifies.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2016 1:05 PM

2016-07-01T13:05:26-04:00

This is my question, as well. I believe that the entire situation opens up the proverbial "can of worms." The scenario that SGT Starnes describes may only be the "tip of the iceberg."

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Jul 1 at 2016 1:48 PM

2016-07-01T13:48:09-04:00

Good question, only solution is to continue scoring based on giving regulations until new regulations are issued. So in case you find yourself in such situation all you can say is "Sorry I am using current scoring regulations, but once the new ones are issued, you can retake the PT test."

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Jul 1 at 2016 5:38 PM

2016-07-01T17:38:14-04:00

That's a good question, and its been asked before in other forums.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2016 4:09 AM

2016-07-02T04:09:11-04:00

I wouldn't worry too much about it. It will take a minimum of 18 months of LLD and not being fit for full duty after months and months of paper work which will result in an extremely risky and expensive surgery then followed by hormonal treatments that will basically wreck the individual in the process. DNA denial will be very taxing for anyone involved. Although they will receive head of the line privileges while your great Uncle Eddie who stormed the beach at Normandy is dying in the waiting room at your local VA, it will still be a very slow process. As long as you understand how essential this is to the Military's mission you'll do fine. Don't concern yourself with the pesky details as they get crammed down your throat by weak-kneed leaders who are afraid of their own shadows. All that will be ironed out very soon and will be explained in the mandatory training Power Point session that 2.1 million people will be forced to suffer through on a monthly basis for the next 8 years (and don't forget about NKO/AKO!). NO NEED TO WORRY! the 4,200 people in the service with gender dysphoria really appreciate your concern and are very excited about this and the Palm Center will be monitoring Military Leadership to ensure the process is IAW their standards. Once you participate in your first transgender appreciation military 5k color run during transgender pride month with your children, all will be fine and you will have shown your chain of command how much you really care. Besides, with the new transgender recruiting quotas that "won't really exist", the Navy will be pinning on anchors and LCDR right out of Boot Camp and OCS! Again, NO NEED TO WORRY, they'll actually be running the Physical training program any way and you will be answering to an E-7 who's been in the service as long your socks! So cheer up! good time are just around the corner and ISIL, Iran, China, and Russia are shaking in their boots scared!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 3 at 2016 2:34 AM

2016-07-03T02:34:33-04:00

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/YH325PM addresses APFT issues, some of which are discussed in this thread. Have a look.

Physical Fitness and Leadership Survey

Web survey powered by SurveyMonkey.com. Create your own online survey now with SurveyMonkey's expert certified FREE templates.

Response by PFC George Hilbish made Jul 5 at 2016 6:55 AM

2016-07-05T06:55:26-04:00

There is no need to discuss this. All of us know what should be the standards. What is upsetting is that as usual, a very few are effecting the majority and to the detriment to others. Even if one soldier is effected by this enitiative adversely, it's not worth it. If you are concerned about someone claiming to be transgender take them to the hospital because it is a mental disorder.

Response by 1SG Harold Piet made Jul 5 at 2016 7:25 AM

2016-07-05T07:25:43-04:00

I am ancient and my views do not matter, but when face to face with the enemy, It will take the same physical fitness for you to win the battle, regardless of gender, age or MOS. One standard for all soldiers. I feel that we are all soldiers and if people want to integrate into what was once a mans world, then get in shape, get over your modesty hangups. There should only be one type latrine, individual stalls for private business, and as for urinalysis, oh well, you get supervised by what is available. We have a code of conduct and we should act accordingly.

Response by SSG Mike Busovicki made Jul 5 at 2016 9:50 AM

2016-07-05T09:50:29-04:00

Drop the requirement to have a "same gender" NCO do the tape test. An NCO should be professional enough to conduct themselves properly if that is a consideration. Or else they don't need to be an NCO.

I doubt the Army will do this, but if you have only one PT standard (say, the male APFT scale) all the PT questions would solve themselves. Ditto for questions on lifting the ban on females in certain MOS's. "A Soldier is a Soldier" - this idea would help decrease misogynistic bias in some males (just my opinion).

On the other hand, you probably couldn't ever get rid of the height/weight/tape standards.

Response by SFC Everett Oliver made Jul 5 at 2016 9:57 AM

2016-07-05T09:57:03-04:00

A male is still a male, even if he thinks he is a female trapped inside his male body....

Good Lord thank you I am retired....

Response by SPC Craig Miller made Jul 5 at 2016 10:13 AM

2016-07-05T10:13:05-04:00

Rome is burning.

Response by SPC Charles Hicks made Jul 5 at 2016 10:28 AM

2016-07-05T10:28:50-04:00

Good question. They should have to pt by what there actual sex is. Why they are being allowed is a different question

Response by SSG Melvin Bruenger made Jul 5 at 2016 10:29 AM

2016-07-05T10:29:58-04:00

As I understand it, a biological male SM cannot identify as female for just the PT test and height and weight & BF and identify as male for everything else. If a biological male SM wants to identify as female, it's all or nothing (housing, APFT, BF standards, uniform, ect)

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2016 11:49 AM

2016-07-05T11:49:19-04:00

The impact can already be seen in the civilian world. High school male transgender competes in female field and track and is far superior. MMA male transgender competes in female fighting and beats the crap out of female opponent. Its coming.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2016 11:59 AM

2016-07-05T11:59:21-04:00

If a biological male declares himself as transgender, the scoring should be no different. The male is different that of a females. Body fat is the same way.

Response by SSG Jane Doe made Jul 5 at 2016 12:17 PM

2016-07-05T12:17:03-04:00

I was asking the same questions when I saw the news release on this. They haven't figured it out yet but I imagine they will run into the same problems that colleges and athletic associations are currently facing in regards to transgender athletes. Should a genetic male who transitions to female complete on a female sports team and vice versa? I do not envy those tasked with figuring all this out...I personally think it would be an unfair advantage for a genetic male to test to female standards. I would like to see a revamp of the PT standards. I believe an APFT should be BIOLOGICAL gender/age based with the goal of identifying who is healthy and fit. I also believe there should be an array of physical soldier tasks that determines who is capable of doing what (i.e. can you load that artillery shell? Gender doesn't matter here.) I believe every MOS should have it's own physical standardized tests. If you can't pass it you cannot serve in that MOS.

Response by SP6 Steven Cardoza made Jul 5 at 2016 1:40 PM

2016-07-05T13:40:52-04:00

Whata F---King Joke'' give me a break'' what about tsking care of the disabled vets here at home first before worrying about the transgender leadership

Response by SP6 Steven Cardoza made Jul 5 at 2016 1:42 PM

2016-07-05T13:42:12-04:00

One more comment''' Next year start electing more Vets to office period time for leadership to run from the front, not from the side

Response by SSG James Liska made Jul 5 at 2016 2:27 PM

2016-07-05T14:27:11-04:00

Ht/wt charts were developed as a general guide to the physical characteristics of a male or female. Most soldiers that work out need to be taped. Although body fat is measured and body fat is an indicator of health, ht/wt charts and taping are not used by the Army to determine physical fitness. "The pt test indicates general physical condition of the soldier's to the commander". Ht/wt charts are used to determine if a soldier will have general military appearance while in uniform. The rules for hair, jewlery and makeup are established. The ability to perform duty should be the primary consideration. PT Test: Until there is a policy change a male identifying as a female will get more points per rep and score higher, whereas a female identifying as a male will get less points per rep. Remind soldiers that they should " Max " the PT test. Scoring 100 points means that the points that another soldier gets is not an issue. Transgender is current policy. The best leaders will find a way to incorporate the policy while maintaining moral and high unit standards.

Response by SGT Gregory Reilly made Jul 5 at 2016 4:41 PM

2016-07-05T16:41:11-04:00

Thank You SPC Delgadillo for your response, and for what it's worth best of luck with your career. It's simple look and the ID and drivers liscense read the section sex, male or female and test accordingly. The big thing to remember is it's 2016 and shit changes. At one point in the military the saying was suck it up and move on. Remember when they started issuing basic training recruits time out cards same thing. Grow up or find something else to do. We don't make orders we follow them. Man, woman what counts is the quality of the soldier. Give a transgender a break. If you knew what they've all already gone through on a mental aspect you might have a heart. It's something most of us will never understand. Give them an order. If they comply pat them on the back. If not bust them like any other soldier. They're fellow soldiers. Treat them as such.

Response by SPC Ruth Duffer made Jul 5 at 2016 6:53 PM

2016-07-05T18:53:03-04:00

Nooooo !!!!

Response by MSG Don Burt made Jul 5 at 2016 7:48 PM

2016-07-05T19:48:28-04:00

I really feel for you guys in this situ. The situ should not even be there and all commanders should hand it right back to the Secretary and make him answer the problem questions. If he can make the decision that impacts readiness, morale and effectiveness, then make him decide!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 6 at 2016 10:30 AM

2016-07-06T10:30:48-04:00

I think the psychological effect that it may have on a person knowing that this person is a transgender, I'm not a expert on this subject but the question will a transgender maintain the same standard as any other soldier is it has off or hands on.

Response by SPC Joseph Durham made Jul 6 at 2016 11:28 AM

2016-07-06T11:28:54-04:00

What should happen now that the military is being socially controlled by the left.
The military is Green. It's not black, brown, yellow, red, white, or any other color. It is green.
The military is genderless. It should not be male or female or other. If a 250lbs soldier is wounded, the smallest or skinniest soldier should still be able to move that soldier to relative safety in a timely manner.
To that end, all soldiers should wear there basic uniform 24/7 when on base. And that uniform should be the same for all personnel. The same physical standards should apply to everybody. After all, they will all have to be able to perform the same duties in combat whether they are HQ or combat unit. Enemies won't care about your MOS or rank if you are within their sights.
Elite combat units can have additional performance standards that everybody must pass to qualify for that unit.
Because in the end we are all soldiers. And our race is Green. And our gender is get the job done.

Response by PVT William Bresch made Jul 6 at 2016 12:43 PM

2016-07-06T12:43:29-04:00

As a Bisexual male, who really cares. I know we are considered the caretakers of the LGBTQ community but, this is ridiculous. your going to have good and bad in every community and also the ones who decide they want to play games and see, what they can get away with. Honestly, you need to handle it on a case by case basis, just like straight people do. those who choose to play games, can be out to the side. those who choose not to play games, can follow the rules and move on. Yeah Surprise, I'm Bisexual and on your side.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 6 at 2016 5:43 PM

2016-07-06T17:43:40-04:00

The real question should be, "when will we move to one physical fitness standard for all service members?"

Response by SGT Tim Fridley made Jul 6 at 2016 7:37 PM

2016-07-06T19:37:05-04:00

I have no idea I do not think they thought this through before lifting the ban so once again the PC leaders are leading from behind.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 6 at 2016 11:04 PM

2016-07-06T23:04:59-04:00

Don't think they should be allowed to serve personally, causes to many complications like this..

Response by SGT Alicia Brenneis made Jul 9 at 2016 2:24 PM

2016-07-09T14:24:01-04:00

This is a very good question. I think it should be based on what gender they were born as but ultimately it's going to have to come down to one standard for all. That's the only true way to cut all the BS that these changes will cause.

Response by SSG Joseph Henderson made Jul 9 at 2016 2:25 PM

2016-07-09T14:25:36-04:00

I'm just wondering when the Starship Troopers showers start.

Response by MSgt Paul Kerckhoff made Jul 9 at 2016 2:58 PM

2016-07-09T14:58:11-04:00

You would have thought that they would have a new reg already completed before they decided to make this big of a change. Kind of trying to figure out where the bomb is going to land after it has been dropped.

Response by MSgt Paul Kerckhoff made Jul 9 at 2016 2:59 PM

2016-07-09T14:59:49-04:00

Which barracks do they live in while going through basic? Which uniform do they wear? Were any of these questions thought of before making the change in policy?

Response by PO3 Arthur Dunham made Jul 9 at 2016 8:24 PM

2016-07-09T20:24:30-04:00

Those that oppose transgender's in the service should be very ashamed yourselves. I worked with combat female women that could outrun and outdo most of you that are posting on here. You really should be ashamed of the post you have made. I bet some of you pissed your pants in basic and cried every night because you were away from your mommy.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 9 at 2016 11:26 PM

2016-07-09T23:26:49-04:00

I see the Army having to eventually create a universal PT test not based on gender.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 10 at 2016 7:33 AM

2016-07-10T07:33:48-04:00

They need to just have the apft scale meet somewhere in the middle and regardless of gender the requirements would be the same . Holy moly that would be like Equality or something

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 10 at 2016 9:14 AM

2016-07-10T09:14:53-04:00

The Army says that they will use their biological gender, not how they "identify". My advice to you: put you head down and keep coloring. Don't let this rent space in your head.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 10 at 2016 6:39 PM

2016-07-10T18:39:54-04:00

Speaking for self I would say whatever the SM joined as is what I am using

Response by SSG Lance Sawyer made Jul 10 at 2016 8:07 PM

2016-07-10T20:07:02-04:00

It's interesting that this question came up. I was having this same discussion with a fellow soldier recently. There is a transgender female to male in my unit. This person is a good soldier, but I don't think there would be any way for this soldier to pass the pt test under the mens standards. It will be interesting to see what changes are made if any.

Response by SGT Steve Nevels made Jul 11 at 2016 1:50 PM

2016-07-11T13:50:25-04:00

I think that there are too many questions left unanswered by the DoD at this time.
I personally dont care what a person does in their life after duty hours. However when in uniform, all of us should conduct ourselves as professionals. The military is a volunteer based profession, not mandated. You raised your right hand and took the same oath those before us did. In by taking that oath, you knew you would be held to the same standards as everyone else as per DoD guidelines for each perspective branch of service. Those that have voiced their opinions about not being treated "fairly" because they identify differently than others, in my opinion should have thought harder about choosing military service. The military isnt a social experiment, it isnt a place where everyone gets a participation trophy (to some degree it can be). Its not about "you and your feelings", Its about protecting this country. It will be interesting to see how far the "Left" keeps pushing the social boundries of the rank and file. Sikhs can grow full beards and wear a ACU/Multicam turbins, females can say they are males and vice versa. Whats next? How can we take and segregate the military even more? Has anyone thought about billeting? Has anyone thought about open showers in billeting? Has anyone thought about how a straight soldier, male or female feels about a member of the opposite sex showering with them, even if they identify mentally as a member of that same sex? Do you segregate and create transgender barracks? So straight soldiers will feel comfortable too? Do you segreate and create openly gay only barracks so that those who are straight feel comfortable that a gay female or male soldier istt checking them out? Im only asking these questions because as an NCO, you know someone will eventually come to you asking these questions. Remember, no question is a stupid question, even if you think it is. Junior enlisted look to us for answers.
If we are to make exceptions for the feelings of openly gay and transgendered soldiers then the DoD must take in account the feelings of straight soldiers. I fear that Pandoras box has been opened and that it will be some time before the DoD gets it all figured out. Until then, NCO's will have to work with leadership to make sure all of their soldiers are treated fairly and come up with viable solutions that fit everyone.

Response by Lt Col Paul Maxwell made Jul 12 at 2016 12:19 PM

2016-07-12T12:19:33-04:00

This is not rocket science. You are tested according to the applicable standard, for your officially listed gender, at time of the test. If the Army decides the individual needs a new gender, they will, in their own time, "issue them a new one" when all proper forms and signatures have been copied several times, and that will change the applicable standard.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 13 at 2016 6:31 AM

2016-07-13T06:31:10-04:00

THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION?

Response by SFC Jerry Humphries made Jul 13 at 2016 10:14 AM

2016-07-13T10:14:58-04:00

Scottie ..... Beam me up, there is no intelligence on this planet.

Honestly I think they may have to resort to AFPT based on MOS requirements, not gender. They must keep the fighting force strong I don't give a rats ass about Political Correctness either they can do the job or they are gone Period.