How well, if at all, do E-4s in your Service exercise NCO authority and take NCO responsibility?

2016-09-30T12:36:54-04:00

Response by SSgt Alvar Lam made Sep 30 at 2016 12:38 PM

2016-09-30T12:38:55-04:00

They don't. The Air Force got rid of Buck Sergeants a while back so everyone belongs to the E-4 Mafia until they get promoted.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2016 12:40 PM

2016-09-30T12:40:46-04:00

I know the SPC rank is famous for the sham shield but I have had many E4s put into leadership positions early due to lack of NCOs or even incompetent NCO leadership. They were selected because they showed the drive and intelligence to successfully lead. And when given the opportunity they shined. Initiative is a big factor for me in determining who should be selected for what positions and I have had many E4s act in the absence of senior personnel to get a mission accomplished.

Response by Sgt Wayne Wood made Sep 30 at 2016 12:46 PM

2016-09-30T12:46:49-04:00

can't speak for the new Marines, but in back in the day a Corporal HAD to exercise his authority. if a non-rate had a problem with it, there could always be an informal discussion. But the Corporal HAD to win.

Response by PFC Jim Wheeler made Sep 30 at 2016 1:07 PM

2016-09-30T13:07:13-04:00

Depends on the person more than anything.

I've had SPC that were great leaders and SPC that had absolutely no interest in any leadership positions, or the ability to perform them.

I've also seen great E4s get promoted and be absolutely terrible NCOs, usually because they believed that being a leader should mean you have to work less instead of work more.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2016 1:10 PM

2016-09-30T13:10:44-04:00

Most E4s, when I served, were very good at their jobs. They had to be as we did not always have enough E5s to go around. A lack of time in grade held too many good E4s back. (Most of my time in was peace time.) By the time they made E5 they were burned out from doing the E5/E6 jobs with no credit they just left instead of re-upping. Took me 9 or 10 years to make E5. Still did the same job I had been doing for the previous 6. Until enough people with rockers left our unit anyways. As an E5 I held an E7 billet and have stepped into the O2/O3 billet on occasion.

Response by CWO4 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2016 1:16 PM

2016-09-30T13:16:17-04:00

Corporals of Marines are immensely empowered. It's truly amazing to see them lead fire team sized elements or sections; sometimes they even lead squads. The "blood stripe" is a reminder to them of the responsibilities and authorities they have inherented.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2016 1:18 PM

2016-09-30T13:18:14-04:00

It really depends on the rating. For example, my rating Electronics Technician, E-4 is automatic after waiting the requisite Time-in-Rate. No rating exam or evaluation required. This plus the length of schooling before reporting to their first command means they usually are an E-4 or will be within the first few months. So for an Electronics Division, E-4s are the lowest ranking Sailors.

On the flip side, Boatswain's Mates, regularly use their E-4s in an authority position since there are so many un-desigated Seamen in the division. It's very common for them to have Seamen under their charge and given responsibly of a topside area or divisional program.

Response by SPC Alejandro Martinez made Sep 30 at 2016 1:24 PM

2016-09-30T13:24:32-04:00

When I was still in the Army, Corporals, not Specialists, had NCO authority. Both were E-4's.

Response by SFC J Fullerton made Sep 30 at 2016 1:53 PM

2016-09-30T13:53:00-04:00

In the Army, there are times where due to shortages in the unit, it is necessary to handpick an E4 Specialist who has demonstrated leadership potential to take charge of a SGT position. My first leadership position was a Heavy Mortar Squad Leader as a Specialist. My CoC recommended me for lateral appointment to Corporal, and 90 days later I got DA orders and was pinned. At the same time, I was boarded for SGT, and put on the OML for PLDC. As a Squad Leader in a mortar platoon, I had the same authority, responsibilities, and expectations as the SGT's. Seen this repeated numerous times, as it is always necessary to train and develop the PFC's and SPC's to someday be ready to become NCO's. I would say the Corporal rank is generally a precursor to SGT stripes, meaning that the SM has been recommended by the promotion board, and placed in a leadership position. Specialist E4's can also be boarded and promotable, but may not be filling a SGT slot. With the right mentorship from other NCO's in the unit, CPL's usually do well because they are motivated and striving to make it to the next level. The Army Recruiting Command experimented with a "Corporal Recruiter" program a few different times. Taking SPC E4 volunteers that were qualified, promoting them to Corporal, and assigning them as field recruiters in recruiting stations. Since they were volunteers, they usually got to pick where, which was usually their hometowns. It had mixed results, but overall it wasn't successful and has since been nixed. Only E5-E7 are eligible for recruiting.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Sep 30 at 2016 1:56 PM

2016-09-30T13:56:51-04:00

It's a mixed bag. I've seen some NCOs that only cared about themselves and the extra pay that comes with the rank. Then there are those who embody the position of NCO in uniform and out of it.

Personally, I was acting like an NCO before I pinned on rank because I was told that you should always carry yourself as if you were the next rank higher because if you only think of your current rank you'll never grow.

So I would PT my Marines, I'd counsel them. I'd give them safety briefs. I'd get involved in their personal lives so that I had a good feel for their mental state. For me, being an NCO was everything so I made it a point to always hold myself to a higher standard so that my Junior Marines had a role model they could look up to and emulate.

Response by CPL Brendan Hayes made Sep 30 at 2016 2:09 PM

2016-09-30T14:09:00-04:00

I spent most of my time in service (6 out of 8 years) as an E4. Five of those six were as a corporal. In that time I served as FDC computer operator (equivalent to fire team leader), FDC chief (squad leader), and as a training NCO. I was selected as a corporal because I was good at my job and I showed leadership potential. I didn't mind doing the work of a Sgt with the pay of a Spc because I liked what I did. I also knew that I would ETS after my last contract, so I never pushed for the promotion to E5. I pushed for my troops to get the schools and promotions instead.

Bottom line is, it varies unit to unit and individual to individual. Some E4s are motivated and take initiative. Others sport the sham-shield of "The Mafia" with pride. I fell somewhere in between.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Sep 30 at 2016 2:10 PM

2016-09-30T14:10:42-04:00

Marine Corps is very serious about it. Corporals are NCOs. The amount of "imbued power" between a LCpl and a Cpl is MASSIVE and the difference between a Cpl and Sgt is just not comparable.

Someone "might" assume you were in a "low cutting score" MOS and picked up Cpl early or too soon, but you are still a Cpl and treated as such. With Sgt all they know is you have three huge frigging stripes and they have no idea if you have 3 years or 12 years in.

Response by CPL Anthony Slaughter made Sep 30 at 2016 2:43 PM

2016-09-30T14:43:15-04:00

I suppose it varies from person to person, just like with any rank. I was placed into a team leader position immediately after making SPC in Iraq, and had to exercise authority just like an NCO, although sometimes I had to be a little, um, 'creative' let's call it, when it came to getting Soldiers to respect me.
I got pinned CPL after getting my 90 day card for Jumpmaster School, and from there on I was made to supervise extra duty, or be Staff Duty NCO just like an E5. I got DA Drafted into that God awful Corporal Recruiting program they did for a while, which is a position usually for E6 or E7. Finished Recruiting just in time to go to go to Afghanistan where I was made the FOB Khogyani Mayor since the E6 that was chosen before me... let's just say he didn't perform.
So I guess it depends on the person's potential, as well as leadership being willing to give E4's the chance to step up.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2016 2:50 PM

2016-09-30T14:50:10-04:00

Lt Col Jim Coe Sir, In the Marine Corps, Corporals have authority and are expected to uphold the high standards of the Marine Corps. When I served, most Corporals were serious about their responsibilities.

Response by SPC David S. made Sep 30 at 2016 3:29 PM

2016-09-30T15:29:01-04:00

Simple terms SPC's are more tasks/skills focused and CPL's are more people focused. SPC's manage task s vs. CPL's lead people.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2016 3:52 PM

2016-09-30T15:52:40-04:00

with the country in "peacetime" we are losing our war dogs and promoting hundreds to fill those gaps. most of which are not experienced or ready to pick up the rank of corporal. I've seen so many corporals with dedicated sergeants above them molding them. then again I've seen the opposite

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Sep 30 at 2016 4:34 PM

2016-09-30T16:34:42-04:00

Not that many unfortunately.

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made Sep 30 at 2016 4:49 PM

2016-09-30T16:49:52-04:00

I trained my SPCs and CPLs for the next rank. Not all E4s are created alike. Some can handle more responsibility and others can't. Also, some just don't want it. One of the problems I had as a PSG was that other PSGs tried to poach the ones that I was grooming for stripes. That always pissed me off.

Response by 1SG Al Brown made Sep 30 at 2016 4:56 PM

2016-09-30T16:56:43-04:00

I didn't run across many corporals in the Army that didn't exhibit NCO responsibility characteristics at their pay grade. Corporal's walk a very thin line if they aren't on top of their game around senior NCOs. That 4187 isn't a lifetime promotion. E-4 Specialists are not required to perform as NCOs, but a heck of a lot of them do it well, in the absence of their first line supervisor.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2016 6:18 PM

2016-09-30T18:18:06-04:00

They do excellent, but only if A) they're allowed and willing to actually lead and not just be puppets, regurgitating what the higher-ups say; and B) they're mentored along the way by NCOs and officers.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2016 7:44 PM

2016-09-30T19:44:01-04:00

0 in my unit. All the time they want responsibility, but when they get it and something goes wrong it the NCO fault.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2016 8:45 PM

2016-09-30T20:45:02-04:00

E-4s in the Air Force haven't had NCO authority since the 1990's when there were Buck Sergeants.

Response by SSG Jeremy Sharp made Oct 1 at 2016 1:47 AM

2016-10-01T01:47:48-04:00

Well, some E-4s take responsibility and exercise NCO authority quite well because some are NCOs. I was a Corporal as an E-4 and served as a squad leader, patrol supervisor and tactical team co-leader in a Military Police Company in a large metropolitan area. I was a PLDC graduate and sought greater responsibility with every opportunity came greater authority and responsibilty.

Response by SrA Matthew Knight made Oct 1 at 2016 9:19 AM

2016-10-01T09:19:22-04:00

Well, Big Blue took away the E4 NCO status from us in the Air Force. That said, it totally depends. For the most part Senior Airmen won't be exercising NCO authority for the simple fact that most airmen won't listen until there's a Sergeant in the title.

Now there is some cases where SrA do take on the NCO mantle. Generally when a Senior Airman goes through ALS they can start taking on more responsibility such as supervisor roles. There also used to be the very rare E4 MTI at basic training although my understanding is that is no longer a thing and even E5 MTIs are rare now (have to get command approval). It also depends on the unit size for us. A small unit made up mostly of E4 and below may see more E4s filling NCO slots if needed.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2019 8:34 AM

2019-11-06T08:34:06-05:00

I am an e4 by choice and enjoy this lower rank because I love hard work. I work my ass off with multiple programs and additional duties while also nb helping others with theirs and doing other random tasks that most couldn't complete.

I hear you on that sham shield, some claim ignorance because they are only an e4 but that doesn't fly in my eyes because at that point you should know your role well and be executing the mission day in and day. I wont hesitate to ruffle some e/2,3,4's feathers and give em the business for jacking around.

Response by PO1 Richard Borowski made Mar 29 at 2020 4:46 PM

2020-03-29T16:46:02-04:00

I'm going to date myself, but when I was active, the E-4s were the ones that ran the daily to do stuff. they got the info from 5s or6s and then were told to get it done. We did, no big deal. Has the modern military changed that much?? I'm talking early V.N. era.

Response by SGT Justin Anderson made Aug 14 at 2020 2:26 PM

2020-08-14T14:26:21-04:00

That's a very opinionated type question. Marines have only E4 NCOs which I've seen them exercise every bit of that responsibility. However, the army is a tad different as there are E4 CPL and E4 SPC. Both are just as capable to lead, but given the fact that SPC isn't always a leadership rank, I'm sure more soldiers push the envelope to get out of duties still exercising the private mentality. At the end of the day the drive to lead falls on the particular person in charge. I wish the army used the old rank system in order to control who's in charge. Though at the beginning of my service on the infantry we lacked NCOs and SPC, had to resort to using the most senior/promising private to lead the team. Awkward but it worked well for what we had. Most of us went through Infantry OSUT together so it flowed well.