How to talk to my civilian employer about their constant need to assume I have underlining issues due to my service?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Apr 2022 11:14:45 -0400

Some details. I have a senior position at a company and I report directly to the owner/president of the company. We are not a large firm personnel wise; but financially we are large. Every time they disagree with my approach to something they make remarks about "this is not the Army, we can calm down some" or "I know how you 'guys' can be under pressure, but lets clam down"... Now, I will admit that there are times when I do get excited about issues, but that is part of my job to over see the operations of a multi-multi-million dollar company. I am still in the guard and my unit does do a lot of super MUTAs so the training calendar is heavy at times, but I made them aware of this prior to starting to work here. However, this does not stop him from always making comments about "I can not believe the guard needs to train this much?" and "The guard really deploys outside of the country?"... I have explained to him several times about how and why we train the way we do, that yes we do deploy, and yes it is out of the country.... My issue is, how do I properly and professional approach him about, well, basically not talking about my service anymore at work... I am not the guy that needs the recognition at work or in public; I just wanna do my job and not have it constantly thrown in my face that I am in the military.... Seriously starting to feel singled out and it is pissing me off... Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Sorry for the rant, but I need to get this off my chest and this seemed like the best place to do so..

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2022 11:23 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Apr 2022 11:23:33 -0400

Start with the being singled out but leave the pissed off part out for now. See if you can get your boss involved in a Boss Lift, if your state does this. It does open their eyes a little.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2022 11:34 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Apr 2022 11:34:03 -0400

Sorry for your troubles at work. I am reminded of an old saying, "If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand anyway". Civilians don't have it in their makeup/mindset. You could file a Federal EO complaint, probably not a good idea. Or have Him come over and watch a couple of truthful combat movies over a few beers, to maybe get Him thinking in a different light. I grew up in the military, Army Brat, my point of view is much different than many of my acquaintances, that's life, so I live it. Good Luck.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2022 12:34 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Apr 2022 12:34:03 -0400

I get it....... I wonder sometimes had I not "retired" from Finance and joined the USAR how far I could have gone down that path if I continued while in the USAR. Could I have been a CFO of a mid size or large company and still been in the USAR.

I've noticed COL's and CMS's in the USAR/NG all seem to have figured out the career and service balance. They are either in positions where they can call the shots at work, or are in positions at work where their employer can carry the weight of our service obligations.

Being in a critical position at a civilian job just doesn't seem to work well in the modern USAR/NG OPTEMPO.

Example........... 1 weekend a month 2 weeks a year is 77 retirement points (including the 15 membership points). I've never got less than 90 points in any given year, and that's when I was a commander and could "game" the system to my advantage to minimize that given year.

I've now found myself in a unit with multiple AT opportunities, which means I can pick and choose between which part of the calendar year I take AT. So I try and remember to keep this in mind when I get career ambitious with my military job. Don't ruin a good thing.

Yea, I get it, we are protected by USERRA, but are we? Only the dumbest employers get hammered by it. The USAR/NG also frequently goes WAY out of bounds with USERRA many times as well. How many times have we been given a change of orders last minute and just stuck it to our employers? Many employers just cave to the threat from USERRA, most just figure it out and work around it.

Remember, we only get 60 months of orders that take us from work that protects our jobs. If employers were smart they'd keep track and at month 60 months and a day cut folks loose (I presume this is rare for someone to be employed at the same employer so long that 60 months actually accumulates).

************
I guess what I am saying is you need to manage your NG career path in a manner that can coexist with your civilian obligations. For me, that's staying put in a very OPTEMPO friendly unit, and being cautious where I stick my foot next. I'm still hammered with getting put on orders, but I'm gaming the system now with PME, and gobbling up paid points with classes here and there when it fits MY SCHEDULE so when push comes to shove "oh too bad, CPT Lesher burned up all his funding for the year, so we can't pull him in".

I'm not saying it's easy. It merely makes it "work".

Response by LTC Ray Buenteo made Apr 12 at 2022 2:40 PM

LTC Ray Buenteo — Tue, 12 Apr 2022 14:40:16 -0400

Some people only support the military in public.

Response by SSgt Mathew Cummings made Apr 12 at 2022 2:49 PM

SSgt Mathew Cummings — Tue, 12 Apr 2022 14:49:46 -0400

So... the military structure and understanding of these concepts is fast fleeing the business world. With that being said, if you have an HR department, I would go to them. Not to complain, but to clarify. You also may want to have a JST printed out and attached to your record. Translate what you do/did into their lingo. I wish there was a magic wand to cure certain bouts of uneducated cerebral rectitus, but there is not. If you have a direct supervisor that's particularly bad at it, I would advise a cup of coffee and knee cap to knee cap conversation to personally clarify your situation. Most businesses that have a disconnect with service members, need someone to break it down Barney style. I do hope this helps! Best of luck!

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Apr 12 at 2022 3:12 PM

GySgt Kenneth Pepper — Tue, 12 Apr 2022 15:12:21 -0400

My first piece of advice would be to bring up your military ties as little as possible. Avoid making any comparison between your civilian occupation and your ANG position or experience.
Secondly, if the subject comes up, tell them it is just as mundane and boring as any job. Don't go in on Monday after a drill weekend bragging about blowing shit up.
Remind him of the statutes that protect Reserve and Guardsman from being discriminated against. Most companies have these posted clearly in break rooms, meeting rooms, etc.,
If your HR Manager is knowledgeable he/she may be able to help also.
Bottom line, find out why he is so focused on this. Jealousy? Resentment because he was turned down? He lost his girlfriend to a SM?
Maybe a blunt question: "Bob, you seem incredibly interested in my military experience. You knew about it when I was hired. Why so many questions now?"

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2022 3:56 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Apr 2022 15:56:28 -0400

It sounds like they could use some ESGR info regarding training and deployments of the National Guard. I know one of my previous jobs certainly did. Constantly scheduling me on drill, trying to get me to call out sick to the Guard so I could work a shift. They even thought I was quitting when orders came up for a month long in state training. We had weekends off and many received authorization to "moonlight" back at their jobs so they didn't lose out on too much pay. I did not tell them I had weekends off, the training was a nice vacation.

I ended up leaving another job for more pay, but one of my issues I left on my letter of resignation was how I had been targeted by some co-workers telling me my military service was offensive. I seldomly talked about my service at work, and when I did only with two other people. One of whom was a Navy Veteran and another who was in the Marine Reserves, and only during lunch or break periods when we weren't engaged in our duties. I found out later the other two military affiliated employees also quit.

I currently have a scheduling issue where I am placed on certain shifts or given certain rundown vehicles in the fleet because I am viewed as less likely to complain about poor conditions because of the military. While that's somewhat true, I don't view a Civilian occupation as being equal to military conditions in training or on deployment and as such I shouldn't be treated worse just because I have some military experiences.

I usually roll with it, but eventually I end up having conversations about it. I maintain a respectful demeanor... 99% of the time... Lately I just end up moving on rather than sticking it out. Trying to find my place in employment I suppose. I'm not some rambo door kicker and I don't pretend to be, I'm proud of what I've done and who I've served with, but there are definitely some misconceptions about what we do and our mental state. Then you add the Guard and Reserve to that and employers get weird if not down right stupid.

Wish you luck and hope it works out well for you.

Response by A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney made Apr 13 at 2022 1:15 AM

A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney — Wed, 13 Apr 2022 01:15:16 -0400

Never Ceases To Amaze Me At How Little Civilians Know About Our Military...
Just Another Of Many Reasons That ALL Citizens Should Be REQUIRED To Serve
At LEAST 2 Years Of Active Duty..

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Apr 13 at 2022 6:44 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Wed, 13 Apr 2022 06:44:45 -0400

Your Boss owns the Company. If you were not doing your job (based on the stakes) he would clearly replace you. I would simply request an audience with him. I would explain that I feel as if I am constantly singled out in one way or another related to my service. I would state that my conduct is mine and not that if the Army. I would appreciate any issues related to me and my performance be limited to facts on the ground at that time and not speculate that the outcomes are somehow related to my service.

Now, I am direct and have always been accepted that way. This may be too direct for you or your Boss, seek additional guidance her as you are receiving good advice. Finally, you know your Boss and what he can handle. You don’t want to jeopardize your relationship or job, it sounds like a well paying one.

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Apr 13 at 2022 11:57 AM

SFC Casey O'Mally — Wed, 13 Apr 2022 11:57:16 -0400

To me, honestly, this sounds like a question of workplace culture.

Yes, you are who you are. And no, it isn't *necessarily* because of the Army, so assuming that is wrong.

But.... if your personality does not mesh with the culture they are trying to create/maintain, then the onus is on you to either adapt or leave. We are great at adapting and overcoming... except when we are adapting to people. We have, generally speaking, always sucked at that.

Response by CSM William Everroad made Apr 13 at 2022 4:28 PM

CSM William Everroad — Wed, 13 Apr 2022 16:28:37 -0400

SSG Private RallyPoint Member Lots of great responses here. I agree with the thoughts that SFC Casey O'Mally and GySgt Kenneth Pepper brought up earlier. You are leveraging your military expertise, but like some others have suggested here, you can't let it define you because of the civil-military gap. It is not on the civilian sector to "understand" us. It is on us to:
1. set an example of what a professional force is supposed to be while on duty (and bring the rest of the force with you);
2. bust the myths of the crazy veteran (I know, we get tired of educating); and
3. continue to act professional when out of uniform.

#3 is usually what gets us in trouble. We are hyper focused, diligent, blunt, no excuses with high expectations. Many civilians cannot hang in that environment for very long. In some cases, we can create a toxic work environment for others. As we spend time in civilian workplace culture, our leadership style should adapt, as SFC Casey O'Mally suggested. But not too much, our KSABs is what got us where we are in the first place.

At the end of the day, the professional thing to do is have a sit down and try to understand what behaviors are triggering the reactions from your boss. You may get clarity whether your employer is actually misunderstanding or you are too aggressive for the company. This is a different approach than simply asking them to stop bringing up the military because you can have a conversation where you both understand each other and commit to positive culture moving forward.

Super MUTAs are tough on employers. We get into an operational mode for an extended block of time, especially Combat Engineer leaders. It's tough to shake when we put the suit on and walk into the office on Monday. We can sometimes bring our Army leadership style to the workplace.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2022 11:36 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Apr 2022 23:36:47 -0400

The super muta is what always raised question marks at my old place of employment. That and they couldn't ever have a set schedule on when exactly said mutas were supposed to happen during years we would do our NTC/JRTC exercises the overseas exercises or years we were supposed to deploy. Once or twice the schedule wasn't set in stone during the month of a muta. From an employer perspective this does kind of look suspect, but I'd also let them know if they wanted to talk to somebody at my company the training and operations nco were available to talk to.

You could always link them to USERRA as well. My previous employer didn't know this was a thing until I showed them. But I was the first guardsman to ever work for them.

Response by GySgt Marc Dickerson made Apr 14 at 2022 3:46 PM

GySgt Marc Dickerson — Thu, 14 Apr 2022 15:46:42 -0400

Remove any actions on your part that might cause him to use the term "calm down". Then, when you have the opportunity, turn it back on him. Tell him to calm down, and say you know how civilians can't handle pressure like military folks. Give him a taste of his own medicine. But for sure, don't give him a reason to tell you to calm down. Relax. Take a breath. Calm yourself before he has a chance to say anything.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 20 at 2022 2:13 AM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Wed, 20 Apr 2022 02:13:47 -0400

What do you think will happen if you coordinate a meeting with him about this matter? It appears his assumptions are truth to him. To tell him otherwise will contradict what he “ knows”. I would be upset if I was treated like you and find it discriminatory, and discrimination can lead to unpleasant events. You know him and his personality. If you decide to talk to him I would think long and hard what to say to include how you say it. Good luck.

Response by SrA John Monette made Apr 20 at 2022 11:45 AM

SrA John Monette — Wed, 20 Apr 2022 11:45:09 -0400

Sounds like an issue that needs to be brought up with HR. Possibly an EEO complaint also.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 20 at 2022 4:38 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Wed, 20 Apr 2022 16:38:53 -0400

Hey tell me if you want to be a student of strategic military paradigms. I have a lot to share if you are interested.

Response by SP6 Ben Gordolion made Apr 27 at 2022 5:14 AM

SP6 Ben Gordolion — Wed, 27 Apr 2022 05:14:40 -0400

Did you tried to talk with your boss?

Response by CPT Ray Doeksen made May 14 at 2022 3:06 PM

CPT Ray Doeksen — Sat, 14 May 2022 15:06:32 -0400

So the obstacle is the owner/president? Mainly him? That's going to be a long, hard battle to train, educate and win over a grown man who sees himself as the top dog. The odds are not in your favor. I'd look elsewhere, for someone that appreciates you for what you bring, and isn't constantly distracted by their own misapprehensions and imaginary problems.

Response by A1C Pamela G Russell made May 14 at 2022 4:25 PM

A1C Pamela G Russell — Sat, 14 May 2022 16:25:12 -0400

Sounds a lot like my military service! A lot of assumptions were made about me, because I suffered from an unknown medical condition.
I am sorry that in this day and age, you are being targeted by your employer. Maybe, the two of you can sit down together and have a serious briefing. Good luck and try to keep your head above the water!

Response by CWO3 Robert Fong made May 16 at 2022 3:36 PM

CWO3 Robert Fong — Mon, 16 May 2022 15:36:20 -0400

Sgt, here is some close advice on the matter. Your employer is not going to change, and it is not your job to change him. The Serenity Prayer comes to mind in part; "Lord, give me the power to change the things that I can and the wisdom to know the difference," and so you have two options and they are: 1) Pack the sack and hump the load w/o complaint, or 2) Don't hump their stuff and move on to a better organization that values what you bring not only what the Guard brings, but also what you bring. They don't have to be an Ooh Ahh company, but just one that values it's people and what they bring and as a bonus the protection of the company, it's employees, families, customers, and community. Frankly, that's a big bang for the buck.

Response by A1C Pamela G Russell made Jun 20 at 2022 12:19 PM

A1C Pamela G Russell — Mon, 20 Jun 2022 12:19:09 -0400

Thank you, SSgt. Wagner.
Are there some pamphlets about the Guard that you can show your boss? He may just be envious of you.

Response by CPL Brian Baumgartner made Aug 7 at 2022 10:00 PM

CPL Brian Baumgartner — Sun, 07 Aug 2022 22:00:51 -0400

My feelings on this will be unpopular, but they are based on fifteen years of objective thinking about the subject.

Yes, you have certain rights to protect you. That does not change the fact that your decision to not only hold two jobs instead of one, but also to make the side job (NG) your higher priority, does make you a liability to other team members in terms of how much they can depend on your availability. Everything in that statement is a mathematical fact, not an opinion. So I can understand some amount of frustration and resentment.

That does not by itself make you a poor employee or detrimental to your team; I do not know you and am disinterested in making personal judgements anyway. Nor is it my business why you chose to split jobs instead of choosing one to dedicate towards and excel in. But you yourself opened by saying you hold a senior position in a company with little personnel but significant revenue. Your profile says director of operations in a construction franchise. I expect that position requires work and real time communication that falls outside neat schedule blocks, and I have the feeling you lack the personnel to cover down when you are unavailable (unless the fill in person is the owner, and I know I would not like to have to keep bothering the owner because my contemporary is often unavailable- it would make me look weak myself). I also imagine that the people who were informed in your interview that you had this higher-priority side job and hired you anyway aren't really the ones who have a problem with this.

It also sounds like there is either a personality conflict (your way of doing things) or resentment of your side job, and that fuels the antagonism. That may be completely unreasonable for the other party to do, but that is life.

As I said, I am not taking any stance on who is to blame. I am giving you the respect of an honest response to exactly what you communicated. The only safe solution I can think of without more information is perhaps considering how this person (if it is just one) differs from you in terms of personality. I do not know how much academic leadership education you possess, but my best advice is to find a different way to communicate and work together. Last year I listened to a series of short audiobooks by Clayton Geoffreys, each one focused on "Understanding & Relating with the [Logician, Leader, Inventor, etc.]". It is essentially about working with different personality types. I found it helpful for increasing productivity and efficiency through lowering conflict and miscommunication with different types of people. I think we BADLY struggle with this, as Soldiers and as Sappers; our culture is very unusual. It might also be wise for you to speak to some practicing engineers in your unit, asking them how they deal with what you are going through (I am certain real engineers who are also working two jobs have often run into these conflicts).

EDIT: One final note. There is the possibility he is simply confused why you don't do Army full time if it means so much to you. Clearly he does not have a real complication of all the roles of the Guard, and while I never would have chosen anything but Active for myself (again, I am not trying to get you to explain your reasons for your career choice), I would not be surprised to learn that a 12B unit is among the most useful and utilized in the Guard due to versatility in non-combat operations, both statewide and abroad. Perhaps that coworker does not understand anything about the Army beyond infantry and tanks, or the Guard as anything but part-time and local; in other words, maybe ask to go to lunch together or for beers and provide a well-planned/composed five or ten minute explanation on how this works, what you do, and why you chose to do what you do the way you do.

Response by 1SG John Millan made Feb 3 at 2024 10:48 AM

1SG John Millan — Sat, 03 Feb 2024 10:48:12 -0500

I'd say thanks, i appreciate the spotlight, but I'm a quiet, humble type and I don't need constant talk up as a veteran, but I do appreciate the thought and I'm grateful to work here.