How shocked are you by the three stories below connected to human resources that could have been used to impact veteran suicide?

CPO Nate S. — Mon, 02 Dec 2019 09:27:38 -0500

For all the rhetoric and bluster about veterans and improving their quality of life veterans are still dying at higher rates and numbers via suicide as addressed in the VA National Suicide Data Report 2005-2016.

The OMHSP_National_Suicide_Data_Report_2005-2016 indicates that "Department officials have repeatedly emphasized that cutting down the number of veterans suicides will require more than just government programs, noting that nearly two-thirds of those deaths are among veterans who are not using VA health services" . If this is, indeed, the case, then why has the VA repeatedly failed to engage veterans with either the skills or the desire, based on their background, to help other vets, and at the same time continue to help themselves heal? There is talk of peer counseling, but I have seen little of it! It is a simple question and one for which no real answer is provided.

So, let me share three quick stories about how two willing mental health specialist and a veteran couple were treated by the Veterans Administration. As you read these stories please think about the reported 17 – 22 veterans dying per day.

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Story 1: About 10-years ago I met a former US Navy Psych-Tech. Her husband was a teacher and they had two children. To take better care of her children she left the Navy after 12-years of honorable service and two tours in Iraq. My grandson and her son attended the same grade school and the boys played chess in the same after school club I had volunteered to run. My wife, also a Navy veteran, often took our grandson to their home so the boys could play together. Once, I asked her how things were going in her post Navy life. I could tell she was distressed. She said, “You know I have the skills and experience as a military trained psych-tech and I have a degree in social work and have tried to get on with the VA so I can help vets, but it is impossible.” At the time she was working in a nursing home as a “nursing aid” despite applying for every potential social work / counselor position she could locate on USAJOBS with the VA. She had been trying for about 7-years and finally gave up and obtained employment below her skill and experience level just to help make ends meet.

Story 2: A couple of years ago I was chatting with a friend. The gentleman is a social worker / mental health counselor at a Veterans Affairs Community Based Outpatient Clinic (CBOC). He is also prior service US Army. Thinking about what I learned in Story 1, I asked a simple question: “So, how long did it take you to get on with the VA?” To my shock he said , “It took me four-years from the time I applied to the time I was hired and onboarded.” I said, “Four Years – Really!?!?!” So, that begs the question: How can any company, especially the VA, take four years to publish a need on USAJOBS and then finally hire someone, in this case a mental health professional, four years later when the need is immediate?

Story 3: Two US Navy Hospital Corpsman wanted to give back to their fellow veterans. Iin the mid-90’s when they retired from the US Navy the couple was in their mid-40’s and 50’s respectively. The female veteran was even an LPN. They both tried for nearly 15 years to get on with the VA. At one point the retired Navy couple lived in Greenville, NC. As an LPN this female veteran wanted to work at the new veteran’s clinic that was opening soon. She asked about applying for a position at the new clinic. The obviously non-veteran female she spoke to told her “Well, we are contractors and we don’t hire veterans anyway.” When she returned home to her husband and fellow Navy retiree, she was steamed. Her father was a career Navy NCO serving in both WWII in the Pacific on submarines and again in Korea, when he was recalled to active duty to push new recruits through boot camp. Her husband’s father was a Holocaust survivor who later immigrated to the USA and served in Korea in the new US Air Force during the Korean War. Her husband’s father became 100% Service-Connected Disabled (SCD). Like him she applied for positions with the VA only to never be called, despite the VA saying they were looking for nurses. She was even 50% SCD. She had also served nearly 3-years at the Navy’s largest Drug and Alcohol Rehabilitation Center in Norfolk, Virginia as a medical intake specialist. During his career he helped to save many lives when he was a US Navy Hospital Corpsman, but in his post military career when he wanted to engage with commercial and VA healthcare it seemed they did not think him qualified. These “civilians” had no idea the lives he had quietly saved. So, this honorably retired veteran started to feel like he had failed because both commercial and VA healthcare lacked insight about his experience. It wasn’t, until he became engaged with a purpose bigger than himself that he was able to restore his sense of purpose.
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After all, had these four veterans (e.g. 2 females, 2 males; 2 Caucasians, 1 Hispanic, 1 African-American) been hired within 90-days of applying with the VA in the late 1990s and early 2000’s do you think, with additional training, they could have successfully lead peer support groups and at least made an impact? If they had been able to redirect (a.k.a. save) one life per day the savings would have been enormous. The number is huge at approximately 14,000 lives that could have been saved at an economic loss of nearly $627.93 million. Economic loss meaning that had these lives not been lost, then more than half a billion dollars could have been pumped into the US economy from their efforts. These are votes (aka voters), whose voices are forever silenced! Lives who protected citizens and immigrants alike at our borders, worthy of protecting because of their unselfish devotion to duty.

If we look at these stories via the lens of the estimated # of total veterans that are thought to have died during the periods of the human resources not being repurposed in a timely manner those numbers are staggering:

- Story 1 = 2,555 days (~ 7 yrs) @ ~ 56,210 suicide deaths @ ~$2.51billion in lost economic impact from these shortened lives
- Story 2 = 1,460 days (~ 4 yrs) @ ~ 32,120 deaths @ $1.44 billion economic impact
- Story 3a = 5,475 days (15 yrs) @ ~ 120,450 deaths @ $5.40 billion economic impact
~Story 3b = 5,475 days (15 yrs) @ ~ 120,450 deaths @ $5.40 billion economic impact.

Suicide is a call for help from a human being that is missed and never answered. It is a call placed on hold allowing the benign elevator music playing in the hurting mind to get louder and louder and louder until it is no longer soothing but deafening! Thus, leaving the only way to reduce the deafening volume is to unplug the music player altogether. If a veteran, use to taking care of themselves and their family through the sweat of their own brow, is unable to continue to achieve that independence, they take up the mantle of failure. Not because they want to, rather because they feel like they are forced to.

Veterans and civilians alike need the kind of mental health care that does not further cripple them or makes them feel weak and dependent as hangers on to life. Rather, they need the kind of support that truly restores them to wholeness, while not impeding their future safety, security or ability to earn a living, without just reason and due process. So, the real issue is the ability for any veteran from any service period to actually - get mental health care in a non stigmatized timely manner, well before they get to the point of making a decision to kill themselves by whatever means they choose from a gun to a toxin. In either way the veteran is just as dead, regardless of the speed of that lethality!

Two former First Ladies made these statements about veterans and their families:

Our love, our gratitude, our admiration for our men and women in uniform, our veterans and their families – all of that is bigger than any one party or any one election.
Michelle Obama

Well, look at what people are doing for returned veterans now. The wound warriors. They’re working hard to make the wounded veterans feel that they are loved and welcomed home, unlike Vietnam. It was not a very kind, gentle world then. I think we are kinder and gentler.
Barbara Bush

While these sentiments are nice and appreciated, it does not address the problem that there is no more important resource to manage than - a human resource. Especially human resources are already trained to support healthcare providers when it comes to understanding and caring for veterans.

Response by Lt Col Charlie Brown made Dec 2 at 2019 9:30 AM

Lt Col Charlie Brown — Mon, 02 Dec 2019 09:30:14 -0500

I am unfortunately, not shocked since the same thing happened to me. I tried to get on with the VA and was told, we don't need your help. I am however, disgusted.

Response by LT Brad McInnis made Dec 2 at 2019 9:39 AM

LT Brad McInnis — Mon, 02 Dec 2019 09:39:02 -0500

Not shocked. When the VA is run by bureaucrats, instead of people that actually understand the customer, this is what you get.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2019 10:13 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Dec 2019 10:13:24 -0500

I've been on both sides of the equation here so I think I can weigh in.
There are a lot of reasons why one might struggle to catch on with VA. One is that the resume for USAJOBS is pretty different from what most private concerns use. Put your regular resume in a VA job application, and you will get passed over for selection. It is that simple. Another is that skills and certifications from the military are fine, but not what is weighted in that application (except for any preferences for being a Veteran, a Purple Heart Recipient, or Service-Connected disability). You need the certificates and education too, and people that have been working in the field and getting those certifications have an advantage.
The other side of the equation is that after a long time trying myself, I eventually got hired and now work for the Department of Veteran's Affairs. While the people whose stories are in the OP might well have made a difference to some, there are still many dedicated people who do work there every day assisting Veterans with the various things they need. The statistics about monetary loses and suicides that "would have been prevented" if those folks were hired are completely imaginary. The sentiments are right, the premise is not.

When I was first trying to get a job with VA way back when, I was a Veteran. I had over 20 years in the military. I was a Purple Heart recipient. I had a 60% disability rating. But that is not why I got hired. I got hired because I had administrative certifications.
If you are targeting a job, especially one above GS-7. you need to have credentialing. That is the difference maker to get hired. Once on board, all of that military experience can be brought to bear to make you an excellent resource for Veterans.

Response by LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow made Dec 2 at 2019 10:33 AM

LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow — Mon, 02 Dec 2019 10:33:31 -0500

The VA is rife with institutional malaise, inefficiency, government worker syndrome and a whole host of other issues. In addition, they are grossly underfunded by CONgress for their needs, and the demand continues to rise, due to the ever increasing number of combat veterans we are making, along with the huge under-estimation of percentage of veterans with PTSD.

It will take huge institutional changes, top down and bottom up, along with buyin from all the unions, to effect change in the VA, AND huge budget increases in CONgress. At the same time, it will take a national medical school loan forgiveness program to encourage qualified doctors to serve at the VA, to stop importing undertrained doctors from other countries.

There is a tremendous amount of work that needs to be done. It is very shocking and troubling, but I am not shocked because I've seen so much of it I'm numb to it...

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Dec 2 at 2019 10:35 AM

CAPT Kevin B. — Mon, 02 Dec 2019 10:35:31 -0500

I'll pull the pin and go to the other end for some counter perspective. I'm not into this type of narrowly defined question. The articles scream I don't know to do USA Jobs, can't write, can't interview well, and keep applying for jobs I'm not qualified for. It also screams that something else is going on. Been there, done that is just one factor in the job qualification list. That said, we're getting the too little too late result the Government always creates. Benefits, assistance, etc. are designed to keep the angst to a moderate roar. This service level is rather low and if the public knew how much more they'd actually be taxed to provide say a couple steps up in care, then the military support would lapse. People emotionally want something, but not if it affects them. Suicides, survivor benefits trail, etc. are simple a cost of doing business. BTW, if you ever hear the "one is too many" argument, that tells you that individual will not have the capability to sort out any viable improvements for they typically can't conceptualize cost/benefit. The emotional is overriding the analytical.
Articles like these beg the question: are we missing something here? It's also arguable how much a difference these folk could actually make. Some improvement? Possibly. Worth changing the qualifications, classification, and merit system over it? Nope. Now the insidious side of it. The Government, through its policies, actually wants people to get on and die already. You see that in required minimum distribution in IRAs. You see that in reduction in services for Obamacare Bronze. It may not be intentional, but the Government wants to extract money soonest, and the consequences are irrelevant. The policies are achieving the goal as the average lifespan in the US has been decreasing for some time.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Dec 2 at 2019 11:17 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Mon, 02 Dec 2019 11:17:01 -0500

I'm not entirely sure what the expectation here is. Suicide is an individual decision. How do we expect the government to stop people from making that decision?

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Dec 2 at 2019 12:57 PM

Cpl Jeff N. — Mon, 02 Dec 2019 12:57:44 -0500

On your lead in, if 2/3rds (15 of the 22 daily) of the veterans that commit suicide are not under VA care, how is the VA responsible for these? I am not nor have I ever been under VA care. If I killed myself tomorrow it would have nothing to do with the VA and likely nothing to do with my service.

I have had two friends I served with take their own lives. Neither were under VA care and appeared to have issues that cause most people to take their own life (alcohol, divorce, financial issues, likely depression etc.)

On your three examples of those not hired, we do not have nearly enough information to make an informed decision on them not being hired. Were they the best candidates for the position? Did they do a good job in the interview(s) for the position. We have no idea who did get the jobs and why. Just because the three people were not hired does not really tell us anything. The notion that because they were not hired a need wasn't met is also likely false. Someone was likely hired and maybe a better candidate, we don't know.

Much of the information about each case is not relevant to their hiring or not. Things like their family background, how they feel, how much they want to help etc. are not hiring criteria or considerations really.

Your math for the financial impact is dubious. There is zero evidence any of these hires would stop any suicides, much less a large number of them. Suicide is very difficult to detect or prevent in a person that wants to do so.

I understand the passion and sense of urgency but the best hope for those close to suicide is friends and family intervening, not a government bureaucracy.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2019 1:01 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Dec 2019 13:01:58 -0500

According to the VAs own numbers, a Veteran who uses the VA for health services is more likely to kill themselves than one who does not.

Response by SSgt Christopher Brose made Dec 2 at 2019 4:28 PM

SSgt Christopher Brose — Mon, 02 Dec 2019 16:28:28 -0500

I like to think I had a hand in helping. It used to be that if you called a VA medical center, part of the automated response was (after telling you that you have reached the VA medical center, our hours of operation are blah blah blah) If you are having thoughts of harming yourself, please hang up and dial 1-800-something. They didn't even repeat the number. I went to my Congressman's office and played it for them. I told them that if I was really seriously thinking about harming myself, that's exactly the sort of thing that might send me over the edge. I told them that at a minimum, they needed to say the number at least three times, and that bit needed to be earlier in the automated response -- or, and this would be much much better, instead of giving any number at all, just press 7 (or whatever) to be immediately connected with counselors.

Apparently someone listened. When I call my VA medical center now, the automated response includes the option to press (#) to immediately be transferred to counselors.

Response by SrA Marc Haynes made Dec 3 at 2019 2:55 PM

SrA Marc Haynes — Tue, 03 Dec 2019 14:55:36 -0500

I am a veteran and a Level 1 trained trauma and critical care BSN, magma cum laude. I have have been a nurse manager. Yet when I applied for a position managing the local VA ER it was given to an non-vet with NO supervisory experience that worked @ the VA for a couple of years. It seems to be somewhat of an inbred system which is why it remains such a disaster!

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Dec 4 at 2019 8:53 AM

MSgt Michael Smith — Wed, 04 Dec 2019 08:53:41 -0500

Absolutely not shocked. The HR problem is pervasive throughout the Federal Government. The reason is simple. Republican administrations are absolutely loathe to the idea of growing any kind of government besides uniformed military. So they freeze hiring, they cut hiring, the eliminate Federal positions, and they make it in general an absolute nightmare to get hired on as a Federal employee. Why? So they can tell voters that they are reducing the size of government. Couple this with the cold hard fact of an aging population of Federal workers who aren't in any hurry to retire from what was a very lucrative pension plan (it isn't so much any more), and who, under Federal law, are the absolute last to be let go, and you have a perfect storm for bureaucratic inertia at its worst. No new talent or ideas because no one new is coming in, and no one old is leaving. I could write for hours about how replacing Federal positions with semi-permanent contractors at twice the price is the dirty little secret of GOP small-government cheerleaders, but I really want to have a good day today. If you want to fix the problem then vote Democrat.