How much do you think TIS factors in to MSG promotion? And other thoughts...

2014-02-05T15:32:12-05:00

Ok, first and foremost - I am simply trying to learn here. I am not bitter, and in fact I believe the promotion system is probably fair as fair is going to get in our Army. This is my first look at MSG, and frankly I didn't expect to get selected, and while I was disappointed to not see a sequence number next to my name...I wasn't angry or upset or anything. After all, my consolation prize is my assignment that is a SFC billet in USARPAC doesn't go away and I PCS to Shafter in less than a month :)<div><br></div><div>So I read the board AAR and combined with my own thoughts this is what I was thinking today...</div><div><br></div><div>Actually first, some stats.</div><div><br></div><div>The overall Army selection for MSG was about 8% from what I'm reading. My MOS selected 3%. 11 total people.</div><div><br></div><div>1) How much does TIS factor? I only knew one person that was selected in my field. I know a lot of people in my field. I reclassed in 2004, and usually know most seniors. Or have at least crossed paths. One person I knew was nearly or over 20 years of service and he was sequence #2, meaning someone had over 20 in front of him and possibly behind him. So at LEAST 20% or so of the selectees had 20 years in, compared to my 13. The board AAR is careful to not mention this. Even primary/secondary results are no longer usually published in regular channels.</div><div><br></div><div>2) The board mentions a ton of stuff that doesn't seem to apply to some MOSs, but it baffles me. I have a friend on his sixth look, 11B, didn't validate his record, didn't update his ERB from deployment, didn't get a new photo (all dings on the AAR comments) and boom, he gets picked up. I understand authorizations and I don't expect them to create an auth for my MOS just to pick me up, but the fact that some people get picked up this way baffles me. Is 11B THAT bad that someone who meets the ding on each subject area of the board AAR gets selected?</div><div><br></div><div>3) I'm not 100% sure (actually pretty sure they aren't) the board members from MI came from the two MOSs that compete for my MSG (MI has three MSG MOSs, with different MOSs competing for each one) MOS. How do you feel about SGMs who aren't from your MOS judging the people in your MOS? At the very least, there were only two 35Z that I saw, which means even if they came from different MOS, at least one MSG MOS wasn't represented. I hope that makes sense. MI MSG can be 35X, 35Y, or 35Z depending on your SFC MOS. My MOS combines with 35M and 35L into 35Y. So even if one of the SGMs was a 35M and one was say a 35P, at least one MSG MOS wasn't represented. Not sure I agree with that. I understand budgets, and gathering people together, and the complications of having more and more "judges" but still. Some of the MI MOS may NEVER EVER work together. For example, I have only met a 35S at SLC, and only one and once. Even as a SGM I might not have a clue what a 35S is really about and certainly not the intricacies of their individual qualifications (like this 35S has this school - maybe it's a HUGE deal that only a few have ever done, or maybe it's common)...so I find it hard to believe that they can accurately judge if this SFC 35S (just an example) is above his peers in some areas.<br></div><div><br></div><div>4) They definitely focused on weight fluctuations in the AAR. They didn't seem too lenient on that. So my weight jumped up 20 pounds. I put on a lot of muscle mass during deployment. My photo is like a week max before the board I think, so I'm clearly not fat or even close. My APFTs also say 296, etc. It said pass. Yet I still feel like they would judge negatively.</div><div><br></div><div>What are your thoughts? Do you have additional comments to add that seemed weird on the board?</div><div><br></div><div>I'm tempted to email some of the people that made it and asked what they thought set them apart so I could try to emulate my peers and get better. But half the time when I ask someone they are like "I don't know what the heck was different this year" etc.</div>

Response by 1SG Steven Stankovich made Feb 5 at 2014 3:57 PM

2014-02-05T15:57:47-05:00

Let me give you another way to look at this. At the end of the day, when you look in that mirror, and you ask yourself if you did all that you could today to be the best that you could be, the answer is sometimes "yes." I have looked a numerous records as a 1SG for both SFC and MSG boards and my peers and I would swap ERBs when the SGM board comes around for sanity checks. My BLUF is sometimes you are straight, you have hit all the benchmarks outlined in the AARs, your career map, etc., you are doing all that you are supposed to do and them some. Sometimes the allocations just aren't there. 35Y picked up 11...3 were 35Ls and 8 were 35Ms. I work primarily with 35Ls at my current unit. Some of these folks walk on water. Some of my SFCs from my last unit, both 35Ms and 35Ls, walked on water. Sometimes the numbers just aren't there. My advice would be not to dwell too hard on what you could have done differently. Concentrate on tightening up everything that you are doing right. The strategic assignment will definitely be another "plus" that shows continued diversity in your career.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2014 7:57 PM

2014-02-05T19:57:06-05:00

8% is a tough cut, 3% is even harder! As an NCO that personally looked over your records I just want to add a few comments with what I just seen in my Brigade. Preparing for a board takes months, not weeks! Each category has it's own importance and attention to detail that can make or break your overall score when being reviewed. <div><br></div><div>With that said, I can absolutely understand your frustration, as 3/5 1SGs I serve with are SFCs, all with multiple assignments, schools, and qualifications. Across my Brigade there are an additional six that are serving in 1SG positions. Of those nine, only one made it, ONE!!! Another SFC made the list, one of my platoon sergeants with zero 1SG time and 24 months as a PSG. Why in my opinion did he get the nod over eight SFCs serving in 1SG positions? Simple, I made sure my CSM bought off on numerating him number 1 of 15 PSGs in the unit. Why again? Because he was and is! Nothing gives better attention to a panel of board members then numerations, and statements of promote now/immediately, send to this or that course now, and future potential positions like future CSM or 1SG pay dividends. Again in my opinion, you can have the greatest evaluations or all the schools but if you don't take the time to prepare for your board you are hurting yourself.</div><div><br></div><div>Another note, I personally escorted him to his photo, I personally went to S1 with him to update his records, and I went document by document comparing his OMPF to what he had in his I Love Me Book. It takes Leaders being actively involved in helping our best get selected. I know every senior NCO has keys to the success of getting the nod, that's just my experiences. Best of luck next year and I am here if you want me to take a look at your records. <br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>

Response by 1SG Henry Yates made Feb 7 at 2014 8:25 AM

2014-02-07T08:25:35-05:00

The key is what you've done in that TIS. The board for E8 is more experience based than leadership. (Special assignments, level of authority, leadership development and others) The concept of working at least one ahead of your rank is something to consider. 1SG time as an E7 or opportunities with E8 responsibility. Keep your OMPF and ERB immaculate and defend against errors that can be viewed as fraud. Example: fluctuation in height on your NCOERs, updated progressive records of your promotion orders from E5 to your current grade and more... Stop getting AAMs and let things pile for the more prestigious award; update the OMPF and ERB. Write your NCOERs and awards when your asked to, or provide a working copy electronically and on paper to your rater. Who knows your accomplishments better than you do? TIS to the board is what you have in your OMPF and ERB.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2014 8:47 AM

2014-02-07T08:47:44-05:00

What is your current education level?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2014 10:51 AM

2014-02-07T10:51:33-05:00

Last year's AAR said "24 months in a branch qualifying position and 36 months in a broadening assignment at the grade of E7 was preferable" do the math, that's 5 years as a E7. Success in a diverse set of assignments is required for selection to MSG and diversity takes time. We are different CMFs but I know it took me 4 looks, but I had 36 months as a PSG and 24 in broadening assignments...

Response by COL Richard Bassett made Feb 7 at 2014 1:17 PM

2014-02-07T13:17:39-05:00

<p>     My perspective is a little different.  I had the opportunity to sit on a MSG promotion board a few years ago.  I'm an infantryman, so our (mine and the CSMs who sat with me) task was to look at all 11-series MOSs only.  Everyone who sits on a board does things a little differently, so my comments only pertain to what I did.  For a typical file, I would first look at the official photo for an initial impression.  Next, I would look at the ERB.  After viewing the photo and ERB, I would move to NCOERs concentrating on what the NCO did as a SFC.  We were looking for platoon sergeant time.  The target was 2 years.  I also looked at how the NCO did in each of the last few jobs, which were usually squad leader, some type of instructor (Airborne or Ranger instructor, drill sergeant, ROTC, etc.), or a recruiter.  I looked for sustained performance at a high level.  Contributing factors include many of the things already discussed by others - additional military schooling, professional development schooling and assignments, civilian schooling, awards and decorations, height/weight, PT scores, etc.  There is no point system used during promotion boards at this level.  After reviewing the file, we, as board members, assigned a score to the file, and moved on to the next one.  I spent about 3-4 minutes per file initially, and probably got closer to 2-3 minutes as I got more proficient.  Ultimately, we reviewed hundreds of files.  </p><p>     I offer the following advice:  do the best you can in the job you have right now, push for jobs in the operating force in line with your rank and MOS (stay away from the generating force as much as possible), and keep your records updated.  As a final point, all MOSs are not the same, and NCOs are "graded" differently during promotion boards.  Clearly understand what is expected of you as a SFC in your MOS, and then go out and do it to the best of your abilities.  </p>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2014 2:57 PM

2014-02-07T14:57:10-05:00

The budget controls the allocations, the allocations control the promotions. A few years back with a war time budget promotions went through the roof.

I have held all of the recommended positions of my rank, special assignments, schools, commandants list at NCOES schools, awards, degrees, etc...... Still not selected, yet people who had no photo and didn't even validate for the board got selected.

I'm confused.

Response by 1SG Steven Stankovich made Feb 7 at 2014 2:57 PM

2014-02-07T14:57:33-05:00

I commented earlier, but I did not address the TIS reference in my response. When I worked at PERSCOM, now HRC, I compiled the "board analysis" for CMF19. I worked the averages for TIS, time in position (Branch qualifying time [18-24 months in a leadership position]), percentage who were Drill Sergeants, Recruiters, AC/RC, ROTC, time worked above their paygrade (SFCs as 1SGs, etc), etc. These were averages from the individuals selected. Our findings went to the Office Chief of Armor and then disseminated to the force and was an addition to the standard board AARs. With that being said, TIS for this board is similar to the others...an average. There will always be those "ones and twos" who are either below or above the average. It is what it is.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2014 9:54 AM

2014-02-08T09:54:47-05:00

My MOS/CMF select 3 people out of 600 a .3% selection rate. Both 2 of the 3 got selected in the seconary zone. I don't think it is time and service when numbers are that low it is just luck of the draw, they have so many inflated NCOERs to look through, so for obvious reasons quality people get left off of the list. Some MOSs had a 100% selection rate. That tells me that it is a combination of needs of the Army and who looked at your packet and when. If I weren't going warrant I would do a STAB.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2014 1:41 PM

2014-02-08T13:41:00-05:00

I think it plays some of a roll. But not as much as some other stuff like college, validated NCOER, special duty assignments like being SHARP/EO/MRT etc. I know a person jut got picked up this year with only 12 yrs in. I know few I thought for sure who was going to be picked up being they held MSG/1SG positions yet they wasn't picked up.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2014 11:18 PM

2014-02-10T23:18:29-05:00

SFC Jones,

my first look for E-8 will be coming up on FY15. I may be looking for 1SG Rink to look at my files because the more eyes I have looking over my file the better my chances will be. I did my first 6 years in Active Army and since then until present time I am AGR with the Army Reserves. For my MOS 92Y in the Reserves, slots are very limited making promotion chances even harder. The only thing I have learned from previous CSMs and during SLC from my proponent SGM is that your file must stand out from others. When packets look similar, e.g. "among the best", 1/1, promote now/immediately board members turn to the discriminators to select the best candidate. Some of those discriminators can include but are not limited to Sergeant Audie Club, SGT Morales, Exceeding Course Standards during NCOEs/ARMY schools. I am by no mean stating that sometimes that candidate that doesn't seem qualified gets selected and I have seen it myself. All I can tell you is to look for those discriminators in your record and continue to excel in everything you do. Good luck next year and I hope you get it.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2014 2:58 PM

2014-02-16T14:58:11-05:00

SFC Jones, one of my guys got picked up for E8 (he's a 35M). Here's what his career looks like. He did 1SG time, AIT PLT SGT time, deployed multiple times, over 36 months as a FORSCOM PLT SGT, and has over 20 years TIS. He's an excellent NCO, probably the best E7 in our BN. You did a great job as a 1SG in AF, I can attest to that. I believe the reason you did not get picked up 1. there weren't that many E8 slots open, and 2. you only have 13 years in the Army. I wouldn't take it personal, it just came down to numbers.

Response by 1SG Edward Tushar made Feb 26 at 2014 2:21 PM

2014-02-26T14:21:50-05:00

My view is different as I hovered at SSG for a lot longer than I thought normal. I made SSG in 1991. I was selected for SFC in 1999. I was promoted to SFC in 2000. My CSM (who will remain nameless) said I hid in TDA assignments back-to-back. I laughed because I did NOT select either assignment (instructor followed by recruiter). Once I did one year as a platoon sergeant I was selected for SFC. I made distinguished honor graduate at ANCOC (I guess called ALC now?) in 2000. I also completed my Associates Degree in 2002. I came back from a 23 hour convoy security patrol in Iraq (during OIF I) and the CSM and LTC called me and my platoon leader over. He told me I made the MSG list but it would be a cold day in hell if he ever saw me promoted. (Why he is remaining nameless). Sad how my peers immediately told me I must have known someone on the board instead of congratulating me. I of course did not know anyone sitting on the board. I assume the fact my last NCOER said promote now and make a 1SG and that I served as a 1SG for 60 days in Korea over more senior SFCs on top of the Distinguished Honor Grad and degree pushed me over the top. I think TIS does play a factor though but I knew someone who made MSG in less than 15 years in. I think he had 12 or so years. I do not believe it should be a big factor though nor do I think TIG should be a big factor. Previous performance which shows potential should be the biggest factor.

Response by CSM Mike Maynard made Mar 8 at 2014 2:44 AM

2014-03-08T02:44:00-05:00

Ok, very late responding to this post, but I'd to cover some things not mentioned in the posts so far.

Whoever prepared the cover memo can't do math. Rates for Primary/Seccondary weren't 9% and 7% as stated, actually do the math and you'll see that it was 11% and 14%. So, better rate for Secondary, not Primary as the Cover Memo would lead you to believe. The FY14 MSG Reconciliation Report breaks it all down by MOS and there are very wide swings between Primary/Secondary.

So, now on to your questions.

1) Seq #s are arranged by Seniority (DOR, then BASD if DOR is the same). So #1 does not necessarily have more TIS than #2. Now, does, TIS matter. Absolutely. Think of it like this. Those in the Primary Zone for the first time were passed over when they were in the Secondary, so we would expect them to be a little less competitive than those in the Secondary. This law of averages continues to reduce the average competitiveness for each successive look in the Primary, therefore mathematically, we would expect the "virgin" pool of Secondaries to be better than the total pool of Primaries.

2) Can someone get picked up who did not spend the time/energy making everything right. Yep - based on the pool and the slots. So, maybe you don't have to have perfect records or a photo or a validation to get picked up, but I have to think your odds are better if you do.

3) Board composition cannot represent all MOS that feed into the E8 positions. So, we may see slight differences in feeder selection rates based on the understanding of the board members. Realize though, that they use the DA Pam to understand the MOS's and they all agree on "standards" for their panel. Additionally, there are usually one to two other branches in the panel and they will have even less intimate knowledge of your specific MOS. I use this as a caution to those writing NCOERs that are full of MOS specific acronyms and accomplishments. Remember the audience - panel members need to easily understand the accomplishments/achievements without having to de-code/de-cipher.

4) Height/Weight fluctuations has more to do with those gaining weight and gaining height. You get the point. Additionally, they look at a significant gain in weight on an NCOER with a photo that is before that weight gain. Makes them think you are hiding your weight if your photo is not very recent.

Great idea of emailing the folks who were selected. If they would let you see their ERB and NCOERs that might be a great way to compare records.

Hope these comments are helpful.