How many of you think that UCMJ is a fair system? Do Senior Officers get the same treatment as Enlisted? If not, why not?

CW2 Ernest Krutzsch — Mon, 22 May 2017 17:24:23 -0400

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 22 at 2017 5:40 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 May 2017 17:40:23 -0400

CW2 Ernest Krutzsch I believe it is a case-by-case system, but it appears that, recently, it is becoming a more and more biased system. We see enlisted committing the same, or lesser crimes, but getting harsher penalties than commissioned members that commit the same crime.

I remember seeing a full bird colonel marching around my boot camp squadron wearing slick sleeves because he got busted w/ an underage female. It just doesn't seem like we see this treatment anymore, but that could also be because they don't get coverage like unfair treatments do.

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made May 22 at 2017 5:44 PM

SGT Bryon Sergent — Mon, 22 May 2017 17:44:00 -0400

Well for 2 reasons, How many Generals and Colonels in the last few years have gotten off, with a smack on the hand and just a reprimand and retire with full pay for messing with a young LT or CPT? Second, How many Security breaches have we heard of in the last few years from the higher CoC that are still not punished? If it would have been one of us we would have been hanged along time ago! Let an NCO mess with some female Private or Specialist and see how fast we get hemmed up!

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made May 22 at 2017 6:35 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Mon, 22 May 2017 18:35:11 -0400

Objectively speaking, it is not a "fair" system. It was not written to be one (back in the 50's). It is "more" fair than it's predecessor, but that's not saying much.

There are A LOT of assumptions built into the UCMJ. First is the assumption that we either handle it "in house" or we "exodus" troublemakers. With a longevity & pyramid based system, removal is a "punitive action" so negative entries within an SRB or ORB serve much the same purpose of UCMJ action.

You don't have to "criminally" punish someone if you can end their career. The disconnect is when they have reached a stage where they still receive the benefits of having a career (20 year vesting).

As for officers and enlisted getting the same treatment... yes and no. A LT who screws up just doesn't get augmented (career over at 4~ years). A LCpl/Spec who screws up gets an NJP which yields the same result. It's not until later that "allowances" are made.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 22 at 2017 8:30 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 May 2017 20:30:18 -0400

I don't think that the UCMJ is unfair however as has been pointed out people who administer the UCMJ at all levels can be unfair. One commander does something a little different then another. That can be seen as unfair. One person may get off with nothing and the next gets slammed for the same thing. There does get to a point where it is difficult to punish an officer. Like the one star at fort Bragg that was accused of forcing a CPT. Forming a panel to court marshal that officer was difficult he took a plea and went away is how they solved that problem and I did not see anything else about it. However without taking the human element out of it I don't see a much better way of doing things.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made May 22 at 2017 9:51 PM

MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P — Mon, 22 May 2017 21:51:29 -0400

Seems to me I remember recent cases where an O-6 or above was allowed to retire with full benefits (yeah, ok. One goober retired with one star instead of two and still went on to land a six-figure consulting job) while a E-8 with very similar charges was given an Dishonorable, loss of all pay and benefits, and given some jail time. The UCMJ may be fair but the punishments dang sure are not.

Then again, I've long held the position the higher your rank, the more severe your punishments should be.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2017 2:41 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 May 2017 02:41:12 -0400

I have learned in my military career to not worry about punishment imposed on others. I have been serving for the last 13 years and know for a fact that UCMJ proceedings can be avoided if you continually do the right thing. The victim mentality would make people believe that UCMJ is given when there were no infractions, however this is not true. Now as far as the fair statement, show me anything that is "Fair" and I will show you holes. Life is not fair and we have to be mindful of our own actions at all times. UCMJ is just as fair if not more so than the U.S. Judicial system. Have people gotten screwed "Of Course" but that don't make the whole system flawed. Just my opinion!

Response by CPT Jim Schwebach made May 23 at 2017 8:55 AM

CPT Jim Schwebach — Tue, 23 May 2017 08:55:49 -0400

The "fairness" of a system, whether it be the military justice system or the awards system or the promotion system, depends not on the letter of the system but on the manner in which it is used and perceived. Since those who administer these systems are human and subject to the individual interpretations that make us human there will be variation within those systems. The resulting perception may be one of bias or "unfairness." Additionally within the UCMJ there is such a thing as "extenuation and mitigation" which is applied to put the action in question in the contexts of situation(I stole the vehicle too get a wounded comrade to the hospital) and previous conduct and accomplishments(One "Aw sh!t" equals X attaboys" and this person has a whole pile of attaboys). These considerations are generally not publicized and may lend to the perception of bias.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2017 9:08 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 May 2017 09:08:00 -0400

If you look at the court martials list that the Army Times puts out every so often you can seen clear inconsistency from region to region and from rank to rank when it comes to punishing the same crime.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2017 9:12 AM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 May 2017 09:12:52 -0400

I had the job of serving on two court marshals. I think the military system is fair.

Can it be manipulated? Isn't that what lawyers are paid to do?

Perhaps the better outcome for senior officers is because they have the means to hire more expensive lawyers.

Response by TSgt Thomas Monaghan made May 23 at 2017 9:34 AM

TSgt Thomas Monaghan — Tue, 23 May 2017 09:34:01 -0400

Absolutely not. Look at Abu Grhib the enlisted went to prision for following orders and 1 one star in charge had to retire as a Full Bird Col.

Response by MAJ Keira Brennan made May 23 at 2017 9:58 AM

MAJ Keira Brennan — Tue, 23 May 2017 09:58:24 -0400

Chief, I don't have a strong opinion on this. However, IMO it seems officers are dismissed from the service in lieu of discrediting it versus enlisted "crucified." My perception comes from reading the court martial disclosures (funny papers) in Army Times. I do love it when an officer gets what they have coming and get confined. Yes, I am sadistic.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made May 24 at 2017 12:42 AM

CAPT Kevin B. — Wed, 24 May 2017 00:42:23 -0400

Most got it on the first go with what people do with it. Another aspect is Art 134. It's unique to the Military as if a similar version was imposed on the general population, it would get tossed by the Supremes as too vague, and disparate application, hence Unconstitutional. Yes, everyone has the tales of seniors getting away with stuff. The reality is many times the Services deal with offences as a business decision. In other words, doing what will least likely bite the Service in the ass later on. I've seen far more cases of administrative solutions vs. UCMJ processes as you get to drag all the dirty laundry into a Court and some of it the Services don't want to deal with. I had a LT unknowingly assigned to me without vetting on a Friday. That Tuesday he put on his uniform and was prominent on the 6pm news protesting at the local Congressman's office. He was a Mustang with 18 years in. So it's an issue of how much you destroy that person. It ranged from slap to Bad Chicken Dinner. In that case I pushed for something in between and got it. His penance for the next two years was epic and everyone that saw it said they'd never get within ten miles of doing what he did. Punishment should be sending out two correct messages; one to the violator and one to everyone else.

Response by SGM Joel Cook made May 24 at 2017 1:50 AM

SGM Joel Cook — Wed, 24 May 2017 01:50:53 -0400

For the most part it is fair but it can be taken advantage of. As SPC/E-4 I was charged under UCMJ by the same Commander twice. Both times were unfounded, in my opinion ego based. Both times I requested trial by Courts Marshall and charges were dropped after more than 45 days restrictions to work place, DFAC, and Chapel on Sunday's. Everyplace else I had to be escorted by a SGT. The CDR wanted a pound of flesh and I guess both times he figured 45 days of restriction fit the bill. Both times I filed charges with the IG of unwarranted use of power, UCMJ, and restrictions. No actions were ever taken against him for his abuse of power. Many years later I served on a Courts Marshall Board as a 1SG, my Brigade CDR was the President of the Board. This is never supposed to happen, because he was my senior rater. I advised the JAG of the situation, so they let him off the board instead of me. You would think it is easier to replace a 1SG than a Colonel. The new Colonel gave a pre vote pep talk on every vote on exactly how he wanted everyone to vote. Many votes were split exactly 50/50 and the Colonel had to break the tie because half the board members voted exactly the way the Colonel wanted. The others voted the way the evidence pointed. I always thought the officers voted as the Colonel wanted them to because they figured if he found out they voted against his wishes it would negatively effect their careers.

Response by MSgt Billy McDonough made May 25 at 2017 11:21 AM

MSgt Billy McDonough — Thu, 25 May 2017 11:21:28 -0400

During my 24 years of service I never saw a situation where an officer was given an equal punishment for same or similar offenses. The bias is obvious. This is the reason I have said for a long time that the Commanding Officer's involvement should be limited to testimony and advice only. Their ability to set aside judgments and punishments is too much!

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2017 12:16 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 May 2017 12:16:49 -0400

The problem is not the UCMJ. It is the people that hand out the punishments/corrective actions and the Good 'Ol Boys club. Since Officers are the ones handing out the punishments, why should they screw over one of their own? Most of the people who are in positions of authority to carry/hand out these punishments have been trained/taught with that the enlisted are nothing more than wild animals and should not be trusted.

Response by SPC John Decker made May 25 at 2017 1:07 PM

SPC John Decker — Thu, 25 May 2017 13:07:09 -0400

I have always believed that once you reach Colonel, you become a political animal. It's no longer about the UCMJ. It's about furthering your own career. I'm not saying this applies across the board but the bulk of senior officers, especially those in administrative positions play the political game. They wind up owing each other favors. This assessment might also apply to senior NCO's. Sergeant Major and above. Again, especially those in admin positions.

Response by Sgt Joseph Baker made May 25 at 2017 4:02 PM

Sgt Joseph Baker — Thu, 25 May 2017 16:02:13 -0400

1. Because officers can resign their commissions. 2. O'sbelong to the club. 3. Purpose of UCMJ is to keep the rabble under control, which means enlisted.

Response by MSgt John Taylor made May 25 at 2017 4:44 PM

MSgt John Taylor — Thu, 25 May 2017 16:44:22 -0400

It's good to be the king

Response by MAJ Patrick Ross made May 26 at 2017 2:45 AM

MAJ Patrick Ross — Fri, 26 May 2017 02:45:57 -0400

The UCMJ itself is fair. However, whether an individual case is far,depends on a few things - the Convening Authority, the Judge, the Panel, the Trial Counsel and the Defense Counsel. This is where the problems develop. Does the Convening Authority recognize the actual level of offense - particularly problematic say in "he said, she said" sexual assault allegations. Next is the Judge. Most are pretty good. The Trial Counsel - are they seeking justice or pushing a Command priority? Finally is the Defense Counsel - do they have the right attitude and desire to defend or is it just another number case. Now if you are talking Article 15s, yes Enlisted initially appear to get the worse of the deal. However, what happens to the Officer? A General Officer of Reprimand is imposed often versus an Article 15. What are the Consequences? Forget ever being promoted. Expect the passed over twice. Expect a Show Cause Board. What's the difference? An Enlisted can recover from an Article 15. An officer will rarely recover from a GOMOR. Not to mention, what can be imposed on an officer is often not worth the Article 15 when you can yank a security clearance - which every officer must maintain a Secret. Then comes the Administrative Show Cause again. Why the UCMJ Courts-Martial system is better than civilian world - what the defendant has done in the past counts regarding mitigation of punishment. Not so true in civilian. The defendant will always have a panel that has some of the experiences, deployments, etc. Not so true with a civilian jury. The Prosecutor, if seeking actual justice, will work with the Defense Counsel and acts fair (Justice is goal, not just punish). Yes, there are cases that seem to have odd outcomes, but trying to compare one case with another isn't so easy because the whole person is looked at and punishment is meant for the specific case and specific facts and the specific defendant. So is uniformity more important or is justice more important? Now, there are those exceptions where the failure of the people in the system stopped justice from happening. That isn't the system, but rather the individuals.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 1 at 2019 6:42 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 01 Jun 2019 18:42:41 -0400

To whom it may concern. It's Court Martial not Marshall's. RHIP! Flag officers or General officers have a certain privilege. Junior officers or enlisted don't have that same privilege. That's the way it's always been and that's the way it will continue to be. Just do your part and everything else will out.

Response by LCpl Jason Keiser made Jun 2 at 2019 3:34 PM

LCpl Jason Keiser — Sun, 02 Jun 2019 15:34:49 -0400

officers are suppose to be the leaders and set the statement, their punishment should be severe. i know a staff sargeant that was booted out of the marines on his 19th and a half year. why he forged his last PFT score. he did not do his anual PFT but said he did 3 months before he eetired they butted him out.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 4 at 2019 9:00 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 04 Jun 2019 09:00:19 -0400

I recall an 0-8 recently being ruined for failing to be sufficiently zealous in investigating the potential misdeeds of an O-6. At least the enlisted really only have to concern themselves with their own behavior, not with the politics of their reaction to the misbehavior of their subordinates!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 4 at 2019 5:34 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 04 Jun 2019 17:34:18 -0400

Noticeably no, senior officers do not get the same treatment as enlisted, nor do senior enlisted get the same treatment as junior enlisted.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2019 3:42 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 05 Jun 2019 15:42:23 -0400

Of course it is not fair, management is never harsh on itself...

Response by PO2 Skip Kirkwood made Jun 6 at 2019 1:05 AM

PO2 Skip Kirkwood — Thu, 06 Jun 2019 01:05:55 -0400

The UCMJ is the law - it is neither fair nor unfair. Punishment for various offenses seems to vary widely, but that is true under the IS Code (civilian criminal law) and state law too.

Response by SMSgt Kevin Bishop made Jul 5 at 2019 9:33 PM

SMSgt Kevin Bishop — Fri, 05 Jul 2019 21:33:00 -0400

The higher the ranks the lower the spanks.

Has been that way for a long, long time.

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made Jul 5 at 2019 10:12 PM

CW4 Craig Urban — Fri, 05 Jul 2019 22:12:04 -0400

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 6 at 2019 11:07 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 06 Jul 2019 11:07:32 -0400

I have found that the best defense against such injustice is not breaking the law...

Response by SSG Kevin McCulley made Jul 7 at 2019 12:55 AM

SSG Kevin McCulley — Sun, 07 Jul 2019 00:55:19 -0400

Why do awards go up with rank but accountability under the UCMJ goes down? Officers behave like democrats.

Response by SSG Kevin McCulley made Jul 7 at 2019 12:57 AM

SSG Kevin McCulley — Sun, 07 Jul 2019 00:57:26 -0400

To be considered a profession, you must self police.. officers are unprofessional.

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made Jul 7 at 2019 1:09 AM

CW4 Craig Urban — Sun, 07 Jul 2019 01:09:09 -0400

Ucmj is shit

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made Jul 7 at 2019 1:09 AM

CW4 Craig Urban — Sun, 07 Jul 2019 01:09:42 -0400

Good old boy network