How important is it to distinguish between being "qualified" for a role, vs. actually serving in that capacity in a unit?

2019-04-11T14:41:54-04:00

Prior to stating my question here, let me be clear that: (1) I didn't attend this school, and (2) I know there are far more important things in the military space to talk about. Having said that, here's my question. I have an old buddy of mine, Josh, who went to Sniper Qualification Course (or whatever it's called) in the Army. He graduated from the course, but then never actually served in a sniper role/function in any of his units after that, prior to getting out of the Army. In other words, he was sniper qualified, but never ended up being a sniper in a platoon in real life. Anyway, this caused an meat-headed debate between Josh and one of my other friends, Jacob. Jacob's stance was, "You shouldn't be telling people, especially civilians, that you were a sniper in the Army. You weren't. You completed the course. Not to take anything away from that accomplishment, but you're giving people a dishonest impression of what you did."

So, who on RP can help settle this debate? What's right and what's wrong?

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Apr 11 at 2019 4:21 PM

2019-04-11T16:21:19-04:00

It's like serving in the old Ranger support platoon, you're there, you support their missions but you ain't a Ranger by any stretch of the imagination.
Being qualified / trained means you can perform the task if called on to do so, and claiming to have been something does give the impression that you were slotted and performed that task. kind of a murky area. I think I'd side with Jacob on this one.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2019 5:32 PM

2019-04-11T17:32:17-04:00

I’m sure I could eat a crayon with the best of them...they look delicious. However, that doesn’t automatically make me a Marine.

Response by Cpl Joseph Heaphy made Apr 11 at 2019 6:58 PM

2019-04-11T18:58:07-04:00

I was a SAW Gunner, so because I carried a light machine gun in combat, my platoon cmd put me on a MK 19 with no real training. Company Gunny gave me a 2 min walk through of the weapon. Was I manning that weapon on patrol? Yes. Was I qualified? Hell no. Combat changes everything.

Response by Maj John Bell made Apr 11 at 2019 8:27 PM

2019-04-11T20:27:19-04:00

I cannot fathom being sent to a school without being slated for or assigned a billet that requires the school. Was absolutely every US Amy billet with a sniper certification requirement actually filled by a certified sniper and with another certified sniper on deck?

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 11 at 2019 9:12 PM

2019-04-11T21:12:55-04:00

If I went to Armor Officer Basic Course and graduated but never mounted a tank, it would be disingenuous for me to call myself a tanker. What are my qualifications? Passing the course.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2019 9:42 PM

2019-04-11T21:42:34-04:00

This argument is as old as the Army itself:
"The Tab is a school, the Scroll is a way of life"
"5 Jump Chump vs. a joe with 20 years in Division and 150 night combat equipment mass tacs"
The examples are endless, but I will tell you this:
Your friend is Sniper qualified. He graduated the course.
There are guys that do that job for 5-10 years, some with the school, some without, some great, some mediocre, and they are snipers.
Frankly, if your friend was not assigned in that position or headed to that position, he should have never gotten the school seat.
But who am I to judge? I don't even tell civilians what I do or what I did in the Army.
If they pester me for an answer I tell them I do spreadsheets and slides.

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made Apr 11 at 2019 9:51 PM

2019-04-11T21:51:19-04:00

Jacob is correct. Josh had the training, but was never a sniper. I'm sure Josh accomplished many noteworthy things during his service, he doesn't have to embellish that service by claiming to be something he wasn't

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Apr 11 at 2019 9:58 PM

2019-04-11T21:58:30-04:00

Kinda of like the difference between being pregnant and reading about it.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Apr 11 at 2019 10:06 PM

2019-04-11T22:06:08-04:00

I fulfilled functions of a Jump Master in Afghanistan for actions in the aircraft for LCLA cargo drops...I would never tell people I am a Jump Master, never been to the two schools I'd need for that.

Response by SFC George Smith made Apr 12 at 2019 12:28 AM

2019-04-12T00:28:05-04:00

Thanks For The Info...Thanks For The Share

Response by LCDR Joshua Gillespie made Apr 12 at 2019 10:58 AM

2019-04-12T10:58:08-04:00

I think it all comes down to what's implied. Your friend accomplished something outstanding... something to be proud of that certainly sets him apart from many. Still, there's a difference between training for something, and doing something. The same works in reverse, and to my mind, is the more "sticky" situation. This is one of the things I truly loathe about the "spitting contests" surrounding military service.

Response by SSG Thomas Trutt made Apr 12 at 2019 5:50 PM

2019-04-12T17:50:49-04:00

I think having the skills gives you some bragging rights, as long as you aren't trying to claim you did specific things that you didn't actually do. If the guy says he was a sniper than whatever - he's just proud of himself, if he says "I killed 10 Taliban commanders" then tell him to quit lying.

Going through schools deserves respect, even if separate from actual practice. If someone goes to Ranger School you don't discount that entire experience if they don't go to a Ranger Unit. If someone learns to play guitar but never joins a band, are they still a guitar player. If someone is infantry, do you make them clarify themselves if they never deployed? If you get a doctorate and don't practice in your field you're still a doctor. Are you only a real airborne troop if you do a combat jump?

Response by MSG Danny Mathers made Apr 18 at 2019 6:49 PM

2019-04-18T18:49:55-04:00

The role is more important than a course in my opinion. The course teaches the basic fundementals. The role can be acomplished in the field or by on the job training & mentoring. I was a SOF Sniper for a dozen years. You never quit learning new things. First you learn basic marksmanship, progress to learning to reading the conditions and appling it to your weapon. Furthermore and most important is cover & concealment. The sniper must be able to kill and live with himself afterward. The role is considered the most hated by its enemies. He should only talk about it with fellow veterans and relate the skills to stalking and hunting game. Adults don't brag about killing people which is what snipers do in war zones when required. Bragging to outsiders can make false impressions.

Response by SFC Orion Marley made Jun 21 at 2019 10:03 PM

2019-06-21T22:03:10-04:00

1st: There is no reason ever, to be flapping your gums to any Civilians about any specific ASI's, you may have had the opportunity, presence of mind and intestinal fortitude, to be selected for, then attend and pass.
"Congratulations, here's your certificate, your 6x DA-1059's, your flight Manifest, (Implied: No titty Bar for you, Kid), now go out there and do great things for God and Country".
The exception to 1st: The Civilian happens to be a DOD Civilian Gov. Contractor, and or, you are actively interviewing for a Civilian Job and you are responding to an inquiry from an Agency/Corp. HR Rep. during a Candidate Vetting Process.
Seriously.
2nd: My Professional View: Anyone dumb enough to attend Ranger School, earn their Qualification Tab and proceed to project themselves as an actual US Army Ranger......without EVER having been assigned to, or a member one of the Bats of the Regiment,....Should be throat Punched.

The same applies to Harmon Church. Cool your Jets, my buddies out of various STA Teams, I am referring to Army, only. Besides, it's not my fault you were too hung-over to ascertain what the guy in the Sailor suit at MEPS meant when he said," If your GT Scores are less than 110, stand fast against the Bulkhead,( STA./SS), drop your Drawers, turn your heads and.....The rest of you Dirtbags,(Army) and Trust-fund babies,(airfares), go down the hall, around the corner, 'till ya see a Sign that Reads, "SMARTER THAN A SAILOR"....Then, drop your Drawers, turn your head......and keep coughing".

Better for your buddy to acknowledge that he received some very rare and excellent Training from some of the best folks in the business.....That it is a perishable skill, and that it is just not for everybody, School Qualified, or not. For those of us who wore those shoes, the limited Operational experience I gained forward Deployed was overshadowed by my frustrations as an E-5, Recon TL, specifically the lack of knowledge by MOST Commanders and their Staff on how to properly Employ Their premier Battle Space Force Multiplier Assets, PERIOD. That all changed of course after one of the Scary-frog TM Leader's asked me what, (Tactically and Operationally at my level), would I like implemented, since his TM was delivering a Tactical Ground-Truth Summary report for the Incoming/outgoing Battle Space Commanders?

He always requests my Team/Section to be his Tactical Taxi after Joint Ops because he thinks its less likely that 3rd ID Tanks will fail to recognize my Gun trucks as opposed to his Slick-up armored Toyota Landcruisers. I mentioned that experience so far does not incline me to share his optimistic view. After dropping him and his XO & Senior Chief off at the "Liberty/Victory Palace of Fine Arts". He was already annoyed w/ the ,"Tactical Brilliance",(his words not mine), of my soon to be relieved BDE CSM, informed me that he and his TM's appreciated all the "Joint Picnics", and that its not his fault I was too dumb to understand what a "Bulkhead " was at the MEP Station, otherwise I could have enjoyed Steak and Beer at the SF Compound w/ his guys, (Sailors), as opposed to just Steak.....With us Intellectually advanced Army Guys. Not once did we ever bother to ask each other's real names, and I made a deliberate point of verbally butchering his Sailor Rank......Especially in front of his men, or my Colonel. "Captain Surfer Dude, LT. FrogLeg, Underwhersthewaterman Demolition Team Leader and my favorite Master Mermaid Chief Petty Officer". Yep, you say weird shit when you never get enough sleep.....for about 19 months straight.
'
I have crashed a lot of Rock Concerts over the years. I could have afforded the Tickets....So why did I Crash through the Door, smash the rental cop and Security Guards, punch the sleepy 'Real' Cop, and charge up the ramp howling like a maniac....Because, its a Rock Concert!! Nuff said!! So, I am hands down old school trained and certified, "Irish Hoodlum/adrenaline junkie, both a Fighter and a Dancer, a Warrior and a Monk". You can tell people your the tooth fairy.

Still.....Never tell anyone you are or were a Sniper.....Seriously, why would you? Especially a Civilian?? Good grief! If you are desperate to get laid, that's the worse thing to say! If I were really looking for an angle w/ a Woman, tell her you are a Certified Auto=Mechanic, works every time!

I have performed all the Duties and Responsibilities as Target Aquisition Long Range Shooter, Scout Observer, (L) IN Scout ATL, TL, SR STL, Sniper Section Leader, Infantry MOSQ Instructor/Writer, SDM Instructor, US Joint Armed Forces, State,Regional Combat Pistol/Rifle Marksmen RSO/OIC, Infantry BN (L) Scout/Sniper PSG, FID Advisor, C4-ISR Forward Deployed Security Advisor/US BDE A/O. I am Retired.....Happy. Perhaps slightly Retarded?.....Still Happy! I do not consider myself a Sniper, nor would I ever allude to anyone that I was. If it's so damn important for somebody to quantify what your Professional Record is.....Great!! That's what we have Recorded it for. To verify shit....er, stuff...yep, stuff. If they do not have that ability, Then you most certainly have no business in further discussion.

After being put in for the B4 ASI, several times by several different Commanders and being dropped due to Operational Tempo, or Injuries sustained, it became a Joke, sort of, with my Peers. No big deal. A few of my buddies have 75th Scrolls on both sleeves, been through all kinds of crazy Ops...No Ranger Tabs. Why? 'Cause of the High Operational Tempo, 12-15 years ago. I have been fortunate to have, through attrition mostly, receive valuable Mentorship from some of the most Talented assholes in the business. Not entirely sure why, "we" are often referred to as Bi-Polar, conceited assholes....But there it is. If you are no longer qualified for a PARA/Line in the Army, your no longer eligible for that School. That has happened to a lot of guys besides myself. Kinda sucks, but then so does a vacuum cleaner, right?

Operational Sniper Employment experience was important for me at the time, More, I think so that I was able to convey the absolute effectiveness to incoming Tactical Commanders as well as impart knowledge to my subordinates and Peers as well. I and have worked with some of the best and also have managed to send quite a few "Future Rock-Stars" to Harmon Church. Trusting that the very capable and experienced Cadre and premier Civilian Contract and Military Subject Matter Experts can instil some essential components of the Sniper Ethos so that those folks can go out and do great things for God and Country...So that others may live.