How important is an NCO's reference on the civilian side? Can an NCO ruin my chance at a civilian job post military?

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Nov 2022 03:24:07 -0400

I am soon to rcp out of military. I love my profession as a lab tec but have always been terrible at the army side. I struggle with pt and since I only get to go to the range once a year, I am perpetually short a hundred promotion points.

I've always been content to do my job and been satisfied with e-4 pay, since I love the lab and e-5s usually are forced to leave it. I am nationally certified for my job, but my family has made it extremely clear that they would rather see me in a body bag then out of the army which is why I remained in so long.

A year ago we have gotten a new NCO who hates me. He has stated loudly and in front of peers that he thought I was worthless because I was still 'just a specialist' that my professional experience in lab was 'unimportant/not the mission', that 'certain people shouldn't serve if they can't keep up', and that it was a 'waste of resources' to send me to any educational schools. He openly mocks me in front of my peers and the command. This man is my first line.

Recently, he stated that he thought my 10 years in the army was a waste and that civilians knew the difference between a Sgt and a spc, that no one would hire me, and he sure to hell wouldn't write me a job recommendation.

I am a good lab tec, have served honorably without demerit, and have never been flagged. There has never been an issue with my performance as a lab tech and I take immense pride in what i do. I have won several awards for what I do. I have also always met the standard army requirements. But with his influence, I have been treated like a leper in the military side for the past six months, with severe damage to my mental health.

I am terrified that this man can severely harm my chances of getting a job in the civilian sect. Our qa said hed gladly write a recommendation. I have several officers i worked with at my last duty station who would gladly as well. All the civilian laboratory staff is highly satisfied with my work and will make good references. However
i do not get interact with the command except for pt test and range so their only knowledge of me is through him. On top of that, I have to survive another 6 months under him before I can ets.
My ability to work in the lab will be my sole source of support upon exiting. I may not be a stellar soldier but im a good lab tec. What steps can I take to guard my chance at a civilian job? Could his opinion cause a severe issue especially if I wanted to get a government job?

Response by COL Randall C. made Nov 2 at 2022 7:46 AM

COL Randall C. — Wed, 02 Nov 2022 07:46:31 -0400

The majority of civilian employers won't really know the difference between a lower enlisted Soldier and an NCO unless they are former military (less than 15% of "working age" individuals are), work with the military (DOD contractor, etc), or have relatives who are/were military. In fact, you'll usually have to translate a lot of what you called the "Army side" into familiar terms so they can understand the scope and responsibilities of your non-technical skillset.

Specific to him, if the jobs you are applying for need a work reference, the simplest approach is to not even mention him and use one of the many others you mentioned. In the military, you usually have a few supervisors at any one moment. Your NCO might be your first line military supervisor, but is he also your supervisor in the lab? What about other supervisors might you have? Just pick "a work supervisor" that you have a good relationship with.

What your future employer will be looking for is a reference from someone that worked with you and/or could comment on your work performance.

Keep in mind that this is only one piece of the "do we want to hire this guy" process. Unless you're going for a "round peg in the round hole" type of job, they'll want to interview you to get the feel of how you would fit into the organization.

Overall, I wouldn't sweat it.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2022 8:00 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Nov 2022 08:00:04 -0400

Unless you are applying to work in the same lab this will have zero effect on you.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Nov 2 at 2022 8:09 AM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Wed, 02 Nov 2022 08:09:39 -0400

A few things,

First if you need a hand don't hesitate reaching out to Mental Health. They can help you navigate what you are feeling.

Second, If you have positive people willing to give positive recommendations get it in writing. Don't focus on the negative. Civilian employers have little concern or perspective about the details of military service outside of looking for an Honorable Discharge on your DD-214.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2022 12:34 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Nov 2022 12:34:13 -0400

The great thing about references is that you get to pick them. So you stack your recommendations with people who you know will speak well of you. Unlike a clearance investigation, I have never heard of a civilian employer questioning second- or third-degree contacts. It sounds like you have plenty of resources for favorable recommendations. Just don't ask him.

Response by SFC Kelly Fuerhoff made Nov 2 at 2022 1:01 PM

SFC Kelly Fuerhoff — Wed, 02 Nov 2022 13:01:17 -0400

Your NCO is a moron. Civilians do not know the difference in ranks unless the are prior service. Why would you even WANT anything from him? No your NCO can't ruin anything for you when you ETS. I would definitely report his toxic attitude to someone higher than him though.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2022 1:18 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Nov 2022 13:18:32 -0400

Oooooohhhh....I would LOVE to get my hands on your FLL.

Response by SSG Bill McCoy made Nov 2 at 2022 4:45 PM

SSG Bill McCoy — Wed, 02 Nov 2022 16:45:08 -0400

That varies by employer - some employers place a lot of confidence in evaluations and an applicant's job references and/or supervisor comments - the later in evaluation reports if submitted or asked for. Some give virtually no attention to military service, let alone history there other than the question, "Do you have OTHER THAN a Dishonorable Discharge?" (CAPS for emphasis.) When I'd ask applicants that question, many would be confused because it's a trick question of sorts, albeit legal. You can NOT ask, "Do you have an Honorable Discharge?" (Or Dishonorable - EEO law issues.)
Similarly, an employer cannot ask for a DD Form 214 until AFTER a job offer has been made & accepted. At that point, the DD Form 214 matters, IF the applicant lied about ANY of the data on it, i.e., discharge, MOS, awards, etc.
In short, if you suspect an former supervisiing NCO would not give you a stellar reference, WHY ASK FOR ONE?

Response by MSG Thomas Currie made Nov 2 at 2022 5:54 PM

MSG Thomas Currie — Wed, 02 Nov 2022 17:54:28 -0400

I hope this doesn't sound harsh, but your own writing skills (or lack thereof) will do more to ruin your chances than anything your NCO might think or say.

No civilian employer is going to hunt for your NCO to ask them about your skills or performance, and they won't be especially impressed by any letters of recommendation that someone might write for you.

Civilian employers looking to hire a lab tech will look at your schooling and certifications more than anything else. If the individual making the hiring decision happens to have served in the Army or is familiar with the Army, they may draw a negative impression from your 10 years of service without having advanced beyond E4. If the question comes up, don't try to make the sort of excuses you tried to offer here. You can try something like "Well, promotions are slow for this MOS..."

Looking for a government job won't make much difference if you are looking for a job with any department other then the Department of Defense or Department of the Army. Looking for a government civilian job your application will be screened by their HR department before going to a hiring official. That screening process is often automated (even in places that say it is not) and even if the screening is being done manually, it consists 99% of looking to see that your resume includes the same keywords that are in the job description. You would benefit greatly by getting assistance from someone who understands the government application process of the agency you are trying to work for.

Most applications will ask for the name and contact information of your supervisor. You need to give honest information, but you might want to avoid giving them the NCO you are worried about. Depending on the way your unit is organized you might be able to give the name of the officer in charge.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 2 at 2022 7:39 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Nov 2022 19:39:48 -0400

As you will learn in life, you should position yourself to pick and choose your references that best serves your agenda. If you "must" include someone or something in your past that you'd rather not, there are ways around it. The more bureaucratic the better. The Army in this regard couldn't be better.

So........... you give the potential employer the phone number of the S1 in your last unit. They will probably do nothing more (if anything) than confirm employment, rank when you left, and when you left (not status of why you left). Turn over is astronomical in the Army and your change of command is just as likely to turn over before you even start using the unit as a reference.

As time goes on, your far past (barring criminal convictions) becomes less relevant than your recent past.

You only "really" need to keep contact with folks if you intend to need a security background check. As time progresses you'll only have in constant contact the most glowing of references you can reach back to.

Response by COL Vincent Stoneking made Nov 2 at 2022 8:38 PM

COL Vincent Stoneking — Wed, 02 Nov 2022 20:38:07 -0400

Don't ask him for a reference and carry on. If you want references, get them from the others you mentioned. You don't need a reference from this guy, and nobody will know or care who he is/was. While I would know the differences between a SPC/CPL/SGT, 93.74% [number made up, but I bet it's close] will neither know nor care. His opinion is completely irrelevant unless he is going to stalk your job applications and give unsolicited negative recommendations.

Response by CPL Sheila Lewis made Nov 3 at 2022 11:34 AM

CPL Sheila Lewis — Thu, 03 Nov 2022 11:34:38 -0400

Just continue to your best while on AD, and ETS w/your Honorable Discharge...good luck amongst the civilians because they are mainly charlie foxtrot.

Response by SFC Dan Thomsen made Nov 3 at 2022 12:45 PM

SFC Dan Thomsen — Thu, 03 Nov 2022 12:45:47 -0400

I would ask the author('s) of your awards for letters of recommendation and submit those with your resume. These are the people that know your level of skill and know it exceeds standards making your performance worthy of recognition. Your chain of command usually only has one enlisted individual (your Squad leader or direct supervisor) and then jumps to an officer between O-1 and O-3. Whatwould they say of your performance? Using your NCO support channel, what does your next few tiers of leadership say of your performance and would they write you a letter of recommendation as these individuals likely have known you far longer then this new Sergeant you are sufferign under. Just some thoughts.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2022 3:22 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 Nov 2022 15:22:05 -0400

You've nothing to worry about on that front.

Pay attention in your classes as you ETS. They will walk you through in translating everything to the civilian job market. For example, an NCO would be called a supervisor and an officer would be called managers, etc. All of us have had bad supervisors, or just things that didn't click with others. I'm sure with more time you could win this NCO over and the company leadership would help straighten the situation out. In the meantime, focus on your strengths like you already are, how you can market yourself, and who actually believes in you and can assist you. Reach out to your LTs, they might be of help too.

Response by SPC David C. made Nov 3 at 2022 8:42 PM

SPC David C. — Thu, 03 Nov 2022 20:42:23 -0400

Okay so when I got out, I was fed the rah rah bullshit about the DD-214 being the most important document of my life, I should show up for an interview in my dress blues, and a recommendation from my Company/ Platoon Commander, Plt Sgt, or team leader would be like the word of God himself. In reality, very few care or even know what a DD-214 is (except for dishonorable) unless it's a govt type job, will laugh at you if you show up in uniform for a civilian job, and again, unless it's a govt type job, no one is going to care about what your commander or platoon sgt has to say. You could just as easily pay off some random person to claim they were your supervisor and few civilians would even know the difference unless they served. The military likes to scare you with this shit to keep you in or keep you afraid of what happens if you don't drink the kool-aid when in reality, it doesn't matter that much. Again, none of that applies if you're going for a govt or security related type job. Normal civilian jobs will care more about your education, certifications, and job proficiency. Relax dude, if you can hold your own in the lab, no civilian employer is going to care if you didn't shoot expert, can't hump a 80lb pack 12 miles in 3 hours, didn't score a 1st class PFT, didn't like being in the field, didn't iron your uniform or shine your boots, or weren't the loudest one in the barracks screaming "Yes Siiiiiiiir" in boot camp.

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made Nov 4 at 2022 7:42 AM

LtCol Robert Quinter — Fri, 04 Nov 2022 07:42:38 -0400

Disregard your NCO except for avoiding any legal or administrative problems with him for the next six months, you've got others who you can use as references with civilian employers and, unless you make reference to him in your applications, he will not be known to potential employers outside your current lab.
Of greater concern to me would be the opinions of your family and your own attitude. Why does your family question your ability to succeed outside of the military?
You also give the impression that you feel your performance in the lab compensates for your lack of performance as a soldier. Most civilian organizations have cultures that you must fit into that are not related to your specific job but are an unspoken criteria or expectation for your success within the organization. Does your family question your ability to satisfy such unstated expectation outside of the military environment? Are you capable of recognizing and working to satisfy those undefined expectations?
Your attitude and the impression you make on a civilian employer will determine your success, not your NCO.

Response by PO3 Mark Johnson made Nov 7 at 2022 3:38 PM

PO3 Mark Johnson — Mon, 07 Nov 2022 15:38:28 -0500

Most employers don't care, and the ones that do typically only care if you have a Dishonorable Discharge. Most don't know an S1 from an S-class, or what an RE-3F reenlistment code is. If you have any sort of qualification/license, they likely won't even ask for a reference. In this labor market, a lot of the power is in your hands, particularly in some of the "less desirable" fields.

Response by LT William Pellegrini made Nov 28 at 2022 11:53 AM

LT William Pellegrini — Mon, 28 Nov 2022 11:53:39 -0500

Grin and bear it is the best thing you can do.
AND
Obtain as many of those Recommendations as you can. Then in the fullness of time you leave a bad work situation. A hand full of written recommendations written by officers and civilian supervisors will trump the screed of an NCO. If the question comes up in an interview admit to the fact that the NCO had a personality conflict with you. Which has absolutely nothing to do with your ability to do the position you are apply for in an outstanding manner. I wouldn't worry about the NCO. Just get the written recommendations, and you will have little problem finding a good paying civilian job.