How has your idea of the ideal NCO and/or Officer changed from when you first began your career to now?

SGT Joseph Gunderson — Sun, 04 Feb 2018 21:40:59 -0500

Response by SPC Margaret Higgins made Feb 4 at 2018 9:49 PM

SPC Margaret Higgins — Sun, 04 Feb 2018 21:49:11 -0500

SGT Joseph Gunderson: I find that there is less rank exhibited by the NCO's and the Officers on Rally Point.

Response by SPC Willie Dunn made Feb 4 at 2018 9:50 PM

SPC Willie Dunn — Sun, 04 Feb 2018 21:50:17 -0500

I thought leaders were intelligent, brave and articulate. Turns out they’re just people with a job that they hate and are sticking with it for the “benefits.”

Response by CPT Griff Tatum made Feb 4 at 2018 9:57 PM

CPT Griff Tatum — Sun, 04 Feb 2018 21:57:09 -0500

The biggest thing I have learned is that rank is only positional leadership. Pinnacle leaders do not rely on their rank to carry them, they carry their rank and more. I’ve met good officers and bad. Both non commissioned and commissioned. I’ve seen both types flaunt the rank but have no “go” when the rubber meets the road. And I’ve seen lower enlisted lead better than senior NCOs and commissioned officers. Leadership comes from within. You may be the boss, but you may not be the leader.

Response by SMSgt Thor Merich made Feb 4 at 2018 11:54 PM

SMSgt Thor Merich — Sun, 04 Feb 2018 23:54:14 -0500

My perception hasn't really changed over the years. Good leadership qualities never change. However, what I did learn over the years is that those in leadership are not really any smarter than anyone else. Their focus is just different.

Response by SFC Jeffrey Port made Feb 5 at 2018 12:16 AM

SFC Jeffrey Port — Mon, 05 Feb 2018 00:16:17 -0500

When I first joined, different mindset, officers and NCO's understood their authority and supported those who used it properly. More quality leadership, lot more balls in decision making process and less spine-less yes-men!

I have provided the definition below to clarify.

spine·less;

lacking resolution; weak and purposeless:

"a spineless coward"
synonyms:
weak, weak-willed, weak-kneed, feeble, soft, ineffectual, irresolute, indecisive, cowardly, timid, timorous, fearful, faint-hearted, pusillanimous, craven, unmanly, namby-pamby, lily-livered, chicken-hearted, wimpish, wimpy, sissy, wussy, chicken, yellow, yellow-bellied, gutless

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2018 8:39 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 05 Feb 2018 08:39:46 -0500

Intriguing question :)

When I was a neophyte "O", every NCO seemed like my dad...mine was an Airborne NCO, so I grew up with a healthy respect for them. I saw O-3's, let alone O-4's as terrifying beasts waiting for me to screw up at every corner, and "Chief" was the all-powerful source of the wisdom that would keep me from being devoured alive (ha!). O-5 and above were kinda like super-beings you didn't even have the right to look at. E-9? Well, I'd have sooner eaten my shoes than fell under one's scathing gaze.

By the time I made O-3, I had learned (mostly through the advice of SNCOs) that not all NCOs are created equal. The age difference was also less, and more than a few of the First Class I served with were my own age. I even had a former USNA classmate who got bumped for grades and went enlisted earn "Chief" about the same time I was becoming a "mature" O-3. So, while my real respect for NCOs probably only increased...I began to see a (much) wider divide between their relative experience. As an O-3, I began to see anyone over the rank of O-2, and under the rank of O-6 as kinda "part of the club". Sure, an O-4 was "senior", but I was usually on a first name basis (unless they'd been waiting for O-5 for a LONG time). O-5 was still a very high rank, but they seemed like "older brothers" or "weird uncles" more than anything else. O-6...that was still fire and fury. E-9? Well, let's just say that even after all that time, it still took a lot not to slip up and call one "Sir".

By O-4, I started noticing how young everyone looks. O-1's seemed almost "too" young...not in a negative sense, just like "wow! they let 'em in that young?". O-3's? Well, unless they were "Mustangs" (and in that case, probably ex-Chiefs), you kinda watched them to make sure they weren't up to no good. Other O-4's? Skaters...all of 'em (just kidding). O-5? It was tempting to feel like they were "peers"...but you knew darn well better than to let THEM find out. O-6? Still the boss...still someone to fear...but every now and then one might join you for a drink at the bar, and you began to believe they were human too. For some reason, E-6 started looking like the most important rank in the military about that time to me...and still does. E-7 and above? Still seemed like father figures; even if barely old enough to be an older brother.

Now, as a civilian, with almost a decade since I wore the uniform, and many classmates up for command, it seems kinda surreal. I have the utmost respect for what our young servicemen and women do, because dang...to have that much responsibility at such a young age. O-5's and some O-6's ARE my "peers" now, and being introduced to "Captain" or "Colonel" so-and-so no longer gets an immediate click of the heels, though it still gets a "Sir". E-7 and above? Always gets a their "rank" from me, because more than ever before, I realize how much they influence and control the military. I still think E-6 is the hardest working rank, and the best rank...I may be wrong , but there it is.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2018 11:42 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 05 Feb 2018 11:42:59 -0500

I can't speak for all officers and NCO's as they are individuals, however it's a spectrum than a rule regarding what I consider "ideal."

To me the ideal officer and/or NCO is not one that's perfect, it's one that sincerely tries their best to improve by constantly examining their environment of Soldiers in order to become the role that's needed by their team/squad/platoon/section to accomplish the mission.

Some common mistakes I often see within officer-ship and NCO's are:

- officers taking way too much time planning and not providing NCO's their time to plan and execute
- officers micromanaging NCO's
- officers not recognizing the actual work the enlisted ranks do, often not recognizing them for awards
- NCO's used to have a tendency to bully their LT's, but I don't see this much anymore
- NCO's sometimes defer too much responsibility onto their troops making them lazy
- NCO's not keeping tabs on their Soldiers' accomplishments and not submitting awards
- both officers and NCO's often do not spend enough time motivating their Soldiers and really getting to know each Soldier on a unique basis, to recognize and evaluate their strengths and weaknesses and creating training opportunities to mentor and assist their Soldiers to perform better

Response by SGT David T. made Feb 5 at 2018 1:07 PM

SGT David T. — Mon, 05 Feb 2018 13:07:37 -0500

When I was young Private, I watched the NCOs run things and actually lead. They trained, led, and took care of Soldiers. They would tell an officer they were wrong when they were. And most everything was handled at the lowest level. This was the ideal. I haven't changed that position in all of these years. However, over time this changed. NCOs lacked backbone to stand up for their troops and those who did got steamrolled by the chain of command because they didn't "support" their COC.

A good example of this was how Sergeants' time training became officer directed. Another example was the BC going through the entire packing list for PCCs/PCIs instead of trusting subordinate leaders and just doing spot checks. One final example was when a Soldier did something minor and the senior "leaders" decided hit them with UCMJ instead of letting the squad leader do their job and handle it at their level.

I can go on and on about this stuff. This shift played a big part in my decision to leave the service as I did not see this changing for the better. Maybe things are different now, I don't know. I just know that the Army idea of leadership changed into something that I could no longer stomach.

Disclaimer: This was based on my experiences and observations only. Others may have had a very different experience with it. We all know that things can be very different from one unit to the next.

Response by LTC John Griscom made Feb 5 at 2018 2:11 PM

LTC John Griscom — Mon, 05 Feb 2018 14:11:47 -0500

Entered the Army in 1964 and given command of over 200 personnel six days later. My mentors were my 1SG and two other senior NCOs. Could not have made it without their guidance and expertise. Things started going south with the expansion of Vietnam and rapid promotions in all ranks. Scandal in the senior NCOs in Vietnam. Scandal with recruiters in the 70s. The 70s were the low period, but things are back to a high standard in the NCO corps,

Response by SSG Randy Talbot made Feb 5 at 2018 5:10 PM

SSG Randy Talbot — Mon, 05 Feb 2018 17:10:49 -0500

When I first came into the army in the 70's, our ncos were all Vietnam veterans. They understood what it meant to be a leader and to hold their soldiers accountable. Then things started to change in the 80's. You got the feeling that "well I got mine" so who gives a crap about you. It really depressed me as I was becoming an NCO. I believed that if you didn't want to be treated a certain way, then you don't treat people that way. At an nco academy, all of us E5's and E6's showed up only to get our heels locked by a screaming E7. Audibly I mentioned that this was piss poor leadership. Things got worse. In early 1990, we saw ncos who were actually good and competent getting kicked out for missing bed check in Korea 17 years before when they were a private. We saw ncos who may have been banged up after years of constant pounding getting medically discharged. This was the first drawdown before desert storm and I was given a medical as well. Friends of mine who I served with for years were caught in the drawdown after desert storm, some saying that everyday was spent walking on egg shells. It became intolerable and senior leaders went back to protecting their own. Fast forward 10 years, I was now a civilian working for the army in a major command. The class of ncos we saw were great, but the officers were less than desirable. I served in Kuwait with one officer that volunteered to go so he could get a combat patch to keep up with his peer group. We had csm's walking around with pistols making uniform corrections of guys coming back from the wire at the mess hall in 2003. Some senior ncos only job every day was to make one briefing chart. Talk about waste! In my final years with the army, we saw incredible micromanagement, no delegation of authority or missions, and some of the worse senior leadership I had ever seen in my 30+ years with the army. The only saving grace was on occasion we actually had an officer who "got it" and took care of his folks. An example, we had a major program being cancelled due to a pulling of funding. Their boss went out to every organization and worked to get all the folks from this program seated in slots as we faced a rif.

Response by SSG Harry Herres made Feb 6 at 2018 7:31 AM

SSG Harry Herres — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 07:31:22 -0500

You can try to teach how to be a leader. True leaders lead because they have the ability to get people to do what needs to be done when those same people do not want to or think they can't. Rank only goes so far,

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Feb 6 at 2018 7:51 AM

CPT Lawrence Cable — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 07:51:11 -0500

Not really, but I grew up with a good example that I called Dad, MSgt Joseph Cable USAF Retired (deceased).