How has FDC changed over the years, have you lost basic gunnery knowlage

2015-06-26T12:37:30-04:00

I came in as a 13E charts and darts, computed our own firing data using paper and a pencil. then TACFIRE came and I became a 13C. I also seen IFSAS and AFATADS and retired a 13D. I always had that basic gunnery knowlage and wouldent hesitate to overide a firing soluition based soley on my instinct, IE had a gun that was constantly shooting long, all data was good in the BCS so the FDC chief moved the gun 50m but left the data alone. bang on tgt. and ther were other things we would do but we also had a firm understanding of basic gunnery. we often wondered what the future would hold, would basic gunnery knowlage be lost in a digitalized FDC?

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2015 7:39 AM

2015-06-30T07:39:45-04:00

We still use manual gunnery as a backup for our AFATDS and Centaur. It is still taught in the schoolhouse and my FDC always sticks the newest guy on charts and darts, just so they can have the experience with using manual gunnery.

Response by SFC David Pope, MBA made Jul 7 at 2015 11:58 PM

2015-07-07T23:58:58-04:00

Our subordinate units always relied on old school in case there was a mishap. I was 13F40F9 at the Corp level. Which automatically gave me the 13C MOS. Our 13E were smart boys and they made stuff happen when we would go out for a Battalion shoot. In the TOC we had AFATADS and maps even when the army tried to be paper free at the Corp and Theater levels. Plus I used several other systems the army was testing. We coordinated a cross FLOT with AFATADS then did the presentation old school. That's the way General Franks liked it. Remember, when everything goes Tango Uniform, it's old school that always works. From the guns to the 500 lbs brass gorilla.

Response by SFC Kevin Presser made Jul 16 at 2015 1:39 AM

2015-07-16T01:39:52-04:00

I enlisted as 13E in 1975. Ended up being Section Chief and Chief Computer for my FDC before I went back to Sill. There I taught 13E and 13F AIT. In 1980 I was selected as Cadre for the TACFIRE school in Europe. Did 2 tours teaching TACFIRE, and 2 tours in artillery battalions. I retired in 1995 and I still remember my gunnery. Also loved being stationed at Grafenwoehr.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 28 at 2015 3:05 PM

2015-07-28T15:05:08-04:00

So having been a young kid and growing up on a real light piece, manual gunnery was the way of life. I've worked in almost every type of BN or BDE to include an MLRS counter fire BDE. Manual gunnery is still taught and preached in light units, having verified that from ALC and had a young SGT with me from Hawaii. Heavy units no longer maintain charts and sticks so the manual fire direction competency in those units is significantly degraded. It's going to become degraded more so with the future MOS joining of the 13P and 13D into 13J.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2015 11:54 AM

2015-10-28T11:54:31-04:00

Over the 11 years in the Army I have noticed that Manual Gunnery is not top priority like it used to be. Everyone is so wrapped up into the digital world which does give us a lot of capabilities. During my time down range I have had to resort to manual gunnery a number of times because the AFATDS refused to give me data. The task was to figure out how to shoot a higher charge at a shorter distance then the AFATDS would allow.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2015 11:25 AM

2015-11-16T11:25:25-05:00

Manual Gunnery is still taught in AIT for the 13D. Safety still taught in ALC. Depending on the type of weapon system the FDC is supporting manual gunnery may or may not be reinforced. I know light cannon guys still spend a lot of time with there charts, running them in tandem with the AFATDS. The M777 guys I've worked with use it less and less. TFT's are hard to get hands on. Special munitions like the excal require a degree of coordination that just isn't feasable with sticks. You can get angle and quadrant but without the AFATDS for fuzing and clearence, you'll never shoot. The biggest drawback I have found with Soldiers not being given an education in manual gunnery is their lack of basic gunnery knowledge. The AFATDS is a tool, a fantastic tool, but still a tool. Without basic gunnery skills operators can't fully engage that tool. An AFATDS may refuse a solution to a gunnery problem we know is workable. Without that basic knowledge we have no way of providing the correct guidance and parameters the "box" needs to mopst effeciently do it's job.

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made May 26 at 2016 4:41 PM

2016-05-26T16:41:11-04:00

I started with charts and darts too Kevin. Went through the same transitions and new methods of computing fire mission solutions. I always wondered what would the Artillery Unit do if the batteries all went dead due in part to some electrical magnetic pulse weapon? I don't think they even teach manual gunnery at Ft. Sill do they?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 15 at 2016 7:43 PM

2016-09-15T19:43:42-04:00

I wouldn't say I have lost it, because I never was taught at AIT.. they do not teach manual gunnery anymore for IET soldiers MOS:13D. and what I did learn of manual gunnery was a 6hr crash course before field week.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 16 at 2016 1:08 PM

2016-09-16T13:08:20-04:00

As someone who just went through AIT. I was extremely disappointed they only spent two days on manual gunnery. Everything is done with computers now so that's 95% of what we learned (data input). What if the computer flops? What if the technology dies?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2016 3:00 AM

2016-11-01T03:00:53-04:00

Unfortunately they have pretty much taken manual gunnery out of AIT. What used to be almost two weeks for 13D school is now not even two full days for the new 13J school. As an old school 13D I make all of my new soldiers learn how to do charts and darts before they get to touch anything else

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2017 1:02 AM

2017-03-14T01:02:58-04:00

I had heard at one point that the manual charts were no longer even a valid secondary check. Does anyone have any information to confirm this? Or is this one of those rumors that just floats around? Personally my FDC operates with a Paladin unit and the continuous movement throughout 750m goose egg negates the usefulness of it. hard to validate off of a chart when my gun relocates every time it shoots, the task of updating the centaurs alone is taxing. not to mention most manual gunnery is calculated off of COB and not gun location.

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Mar 16 at 2017 5:33 PM

2017-03-16T17:33:40-04:00

I'm out but there are things I won't ever forget and some I lost the second month away from my unit. I was always surprised by what we did retain from one field exercise to the next.

Response by SSG Rafael Galera made Jul 22 at 2017 6:23 PM

2017-07-22T18:23:09-04:00

I went in as a 13C back in 1998 and used TACFIRE/IFSAS while on my first station. In Germany before OIF we got fielded the AFATDS/EMT and the MOS changed to 13D but we were never officially trained on manual gunnery.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 15 at 2017 2:10 AM

2017-08-15T02:10:04-04:00

I'm current FDC and my class was taught charts and darts for 1 week only. Unfortunately I had 2 wisdom teeth extracted that week so I completely missed it but when I arrived at my unit they were kind enough to introduce me to it. I'm not very good at it yet but it takes practice, alot of practice in my case.

Response by SGT Jesus Santiago made Dec 28 at 2018 3:25 PM

2018-12-28T15:25:58-05:00

When 13e’s became an obsolete MOS, what MOS did you transition into? I thought is 13e’s all became 13d’s. Am I incorrect?

Response by SP5 Donald Drain made Dec 31 at 2020 4:49 AM

2020-12-31T04:49:34-05:00

I was there when we plotted the Grid Charts and did it all by hand in the area of the Guns where lost most of my hearing.
Now they are miles from the guns and everything is computers doing the work.
Ours we used a slide Rule to figure the charge to give to the Guns . Our man was at the Guns giving our commands to the Guns through Commo phone or radio.
Lots different and completely MOS too makes a difference on a disability hearing

Response by SP5 Donald Drain made Dec 31 at 2020 4:50 AM

2020-12-31T04:50:12-05:00

Lot of Differences