How does one get non-selected for a Federal GOVT position that one has been doing for over half their military career?

MAJ Ray McCulloch — Tue, 16 Jun 2015 10:16:28 -0400

I just received a Notice of Results in my email for a Federal job that I applied for. In it, there is a sentence that reads "...you were not selected as most qualified for this position." What I find difficult to comprehend is how I am not the most qualified when I have been doing that for over half my career, and I have a letter of commendation from my career field's education branch toting my contributions to the education of my peers and my career field as a whole. It is beyond frustrating right now.

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Jun 16 at 2015 10:17 AM

SrA Edward Vong — Tue, 16 Jun 2015 10:17:51 -0400

I'm not sure, but they may just send out a generic e-mail after finding better candidates. It's a possibility.

Response by COL Mikel J. Burroughs made Jun 16 at 2015 10:30 AM

COL Mikel J. Burroughs — Tue, 16 Jun 2015 10:30:15 -0400

One of things that I've been told by insiders in the Federal hiring system is that most of these positions that are announced (first have to be when a vacancy comes open), but in most cases there are incumbents (personnel already a step below) looking for upward movement. Even though the position has been announced and a lot of excellent candidates may apply there are individuals already in the system that have the inside track. I have applied for a number of executive federal jobs with a resume of actually being the President of two civilian companies and commanding two separate Brigades and I got no "looks' whatsoever. That's when I contacted some of my Federal friends to find out what was going on. They would deny ever telling me that people on the inside take care of people on the inside. This is just what I found out and I have no verification that this type of behavior exists. I quit applying and moved on.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2015 10:43 AM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 16 Jun 2015 10:43:30 -0400

There are always politics in any hiring process.

I was was told I had the job because I was the only one who had interviewed then later told I came in fourth.

I challenge anyone to top that.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Jun 16 at 2015 10:49 AM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Tue, 16 Jun 2015 10:49:03 -0400

2 words, "Red Tape BS". Ok that's technically 4. My wife is watching teachers go through a related issue. 2 teaching positions got moved from 1 school to another in the same town, both elementary schools, both the same job description. The teachers have to re-apply and re-interview for their jobs that they held for 10+ years because moving them to a different school changes the actual job position. Like DUH, does this make ANY sense??

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Jun 16 at 2015 10:53 AM

MSG Brad Sand — Tue, 16 Jun 2015 10:53:35 -0400

That has always been translated to me as, "You were not the person we had selected for the position before the opening was posted. IF we were to consider your application, we could not get 'our' guy in.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Jun 16 at 2015 10:54 AM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Tue, 16 Jun 2015 10:54:43 -0400

Same is true in the civilian world. You have all the qualifications they are asking for and you don't get hired - no reason given, no explanation. Or worse, you have 9 out of 10 of the qualifications but that 10th one is the mysterious "deciding factor" that denies you the job.

Most of the time though on the civilian side you get denied because of salary. They insist you need to give them your salary requirement as part of the hiring process or you won't be "considered" When you don't get the job you know you were non-selected because they can pay a non-citizen, visa-carrier less than you. And you have zero recourse!

Response by PO1 John Miller made Jun 16 at 2015 11:26 AM

PO1 John Miller — Tue, 16 Jun 2015 11:26:39 -0400

Like a lot of other posters here I have been told that when positions get created/become open that the hiring manager often looks to promote from within but legally has to open the job to the public.

I too have been rejected from federal jobs I've applied for because "I was not the most qualified candidate" even though like you it was for a job I had done in the military.

Response by TSgt Kevin Buccola made Jun 16 at 2015 11:52 AM

TSgt Kevin Buccola — Tue, 16 Jun 2015 11:52:17 -0400

after reading through the comments I can tell you that I applied to many positions and received the same notices either not the best candidate or over qualified. I answered all the questions truthfully in the application manager etc. A lot of times people apply for management positions and just because you did the job for 10 years does it really mean you are the best candidate? Not exaclty you might only have a Masters degree but you could be in competition with someone who has a doctorate. There are many reasons for the non selection, they could have contacted your references and somebody who you thought was a good reference stabbed you in the back because they might have applied for the same position....I've seen that numerous times. There are a lot of reasons. Think about applying for lower grade positions and move up the chain. Don't tell me it can't be done - I start as a GS5 and have moved up the ladder in 7 years. feel free to contact via rallypoint mail.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2015 11:56 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 16 Jun 2015 11:56:54 -0400

I also work as a Federal civilian employee, and the operating hypothesis in my office is that there was already someone they had in mind for the job, but, they are required to announce it publicly. Basically, they're trying to jimmy someone already in their office for a promotion but have to make it look "competitive". I and others in my agency have faced this many times. One big giveaway is if "moving expenses are not reimbursed"-- that happens a lot; I've seen it in about 50% of these.

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made Jun 16 at 2015 12:06 PM

SGM Steve Wettstein — Tue, 16 Jun 2015 12:06:35 -0400

MAJ Ray McCulloch preaching to choir brother.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Jun 16 at 2015 2:07 PM

1SG Michael Blount — Tue, 16 Jun 2015 14:07:12 -0400

MAJ Ray McCulloch - Sir, the job for which you applied was already spoken for. The hiring manager, et al were simply going through the motions. Their minds were made up before you knew the vacancy existed and a buddy already "selected" as "best qualified". DIA is full of that bullshit. That's why I left.

Response by SGT James Elphick made Jun 16 at 2015 2:18 PM

SGT James Elphick — Tue, 16 Jun 2015 14:18:37 -0400

I think it has been said in a few ways so far but having been around alot of this lately with my jobs I have some insight I would like to provide. Due to whatever federal regulations guide hiring there is pretty much no such thing as a promotion anymore. If a position above someone becomes vacant there must be an announcement and a job posting. That means that everyone can apply even if all the company wanted to do in the first place was promote the person who was next in line. So while it is great if you are on the inside and getting a "promotion" it becomes really frustrating if you are on the outside because you don't know or see any of this. You think there is an open position that you are perfectly qualified for but for some reason don't even rate an interview. The reason you don't interview too is likely because they already have someone so they bring in low-level candidates so as not to mess up the "promotion" process. It would make more sense if we were just allowed to promote people, like we do in the service, but that isn't "fair" or some other BS.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2015 2:56 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 16 Jun 2015 14:56:48 -0400

MAJ Ray McCulloch, Sir, if I were you, I would request a reconsideration of your application... email the HR Specialist on the job announcement, and address you concerns. Make sure your resume does reflect your skills and past experiences in detail.

Response by LCpl Mark Lefler made Jun 16 at 2015 3:06 PM

LCpl Mark Lefler — Tue, 16 Jun 2015 15:06:19 -0400

Have to understand there maybe others who work just as hard as you, part of it is subjective, maybe they did something you did not... its a very open ended question. We all feel we're really good at something, I've been at IT for 19 yrs doesn't mean there aren't people who have taken it a step or two further then me in a specific direction.

Response by SGT Jeremiah B. made Jun 16 at 2015 3:47 PM

SGT Jeremiah B. — Tue, 16 Jun 2015 15:47:37 -0400

To be honest, this is pretty normal in the private sector as well. MANY companies prefer to hire from within, but post job openings publicly to check the box. Unless you're the Second Coming with lots of connections, you were never going to get the job. You were just due diligence.

Response by MAJ Raúl Rovira made Jun 16 at 2015 4:05 PM

MAJ Raúl Rovira — Tue, 16 Jun 2015 16:05:12 -0400

At ACAP (now called Soldier for Life) we were highly encouraged to apply to a few federal positions as a just in case. The federal application process is not user friendly with so many add-ons from what it was in 2008. My opinion, just like in non-government jobs, it comes down to Networking and connecting with hiring managers and HR personnel. Having served as an HR Director at a garrison it gave me an inside on how it works as a hiring agent.

There are also some great points addressed by COL Mikel Burroughs and TSgt Hunter Logan to name a few.

Personally I've yet to apply for any federal positions as I had more success with interviews through networking for non-federal jobs. So far I've found the hiring process outside of the government to be more efficient, feels fair, and less of a waste of time.

If you are still interested in cracking the code at a federal job, My recommendation is to stop by the Civilian Personnel Office, if it is in close proximity from where you live, as they can help.

At ACAP I've been briefed, when it comes to federal applications, don't do it alone.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2015 4:23 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 16 Jun 2015 16:23:30 -0400

I got a letter like that on a federal job I applied for. A bit of background, I am a 7 level maintenance craftsman in aircraft metals technology in the Alabama National Guard. I applied for a federal job in my own shop to work as a Technician during the week out there full time. I was turned down as unqualified for the position. A member from another section who had never done our job, and had to go to technical school for five months to learn the job, was hired instead. I wasn't even given an interview because some computer program said I wasn't qualified based on checkmarks and essay questions that are confusing to say the least.

Response by MAJ Ray McCulloch made Jun 16 at 2015 4:30 PM

MAJ Ray McCulloch — Tue, 16 Jun 2015 16:30:54 -0400

To everyone who has responded: I think we all have our stories - both horror and honor - that can prove the point made above. My recourse for this was to call the HR folks and then to actually email and talk to the person I interviewed with. There is nothing out there that says you cannot reconnect with the individual(s) who interviewed to see if they have any advice for doing better next time. Bottom line, with this person, I found that there just happened to be someone with more recent, relevant experience that trumped mine. While this was extremely disheartening to hear (I find it hard that someone could have more relevant experience than me when of every peer or supervisor I have worked with/for was unpublished or had made any effort to improve the career field as a whole), at least I had some information concerning this. The interviewer also informed me that the best thing to do in a case like this is to remain in contact with them, drop in for a visit occasionally, and see if there are any tasking requests he needs filled. That keeps the connection open, and me forefront in his mind when/if another opening comes along. Plus there is also the outside chance that the person selected above me won't take the position because the anticipated start date is in September, and this person may already have something lined up or accepted another offer somewhere. One can only hope! Thanks for the pointers and lively discussion!

Response by MSgt Martin Mattox made Jun 16 at 2015 7:51 PM

MSgt Martin Mattox — Tue, 16 Jun 2015 19:51:09 -0400

The way to get hired in a Federal position is to know the local supervisors where the job is located. You may ask why? The reason is because once you submit the required documentation through USAJobs, the individuals selected as qualified are forwarded to the person or people who will select the individual. Next, the hiring official will ask other employees there if they know any of the qualified applicants. If people know you and give positive feedback, you have a great chance of being selected. Especially if the job is located locally to where you are, or where you separated/retired. I learned this first-hand after asking hiring officials locally where the job posting was located. More than most it's who you know, not your credentials.

Response by CMSgt Mike Esser made Jun 16 at 2015 8:37 PM

CMSgt Mike Esser — Tue, 16 Jun 2015 20:37:21 -0400

Never underestimate pre selection where gov jobs are concerned, they cross their t's and dot their I's and all appears above board.....

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Jun 17 at 2015 2:04 AM

CAPT Kevin B. — Wed, 17 Jun 2015 02:04:45 -0400

Most of the responses are urban legend stuff that persists because there is the rare occurrence of it which keeps a stereotype alive but doesn't reflect the 99% of what goes on and why. I don't buy any of it as a general rule in my experience..

Now that I've POed some, it's tough love time. I'm one of those who had an active career augmented by a reserve career which was concurrent with a civil service career. 24 of my 27 years I was a senior GS so was selecting official on lots of jobs and oversaw many selection panels. And I've been loaned out to other Agencies on occasion so I'm coming from a broad perspective. We've seen many "military" resumes but countless others never get seen by someone who matters because of how the system works.

"Not selected as most qualified" means you were likely on the highly qualified list which would have been an even start with a selection panel. You didn't mention if there was an interview. If not, the likely scenario is there was a large number, say 10+ of highly qualified and the board looked for a cut point on resume evaluation and you wound up below the cut point. Boards usually look for around 6 to interview first time around. That's what my fuzzy crystal ball says absent more information. If interviewed, then there's a lot of ins/outs on the evaluation matrix that the result had you lower than the most qualified. You could have been #2 or #6. BTW interviews do a lot to derail hiring Shenanigans for many reasons. It helped me weed out biased panel members which made me an HR hero. It also keeps grievances and lawsuits off the Skipper's desk.

So for all the readers, if you don't know what happens and why after your resume in USAJOBS gets attached to a vacancy, you're already danger close. That's why I used to hold office hours 17-1830 for transitioning military to school them up on creating a good resume that was compatible with the GS/WG series and would do better in the RESUMIX first cut so someone who cared would actually get it. Even so about 30% were hard headed and expected someone else to step in. That's why an outbound boomer skipper who had "CO of a nuclear missile submarine: able to destroy cities" in his resume never "got it".

I'd glad to chat a bit with you as it gets sideways real quick in a forum.

Response by SSgt Michael Cox made Jun 17 at 2015 11:59 AM

SSgt Michael Cox — Wed, 17 Jun 2015 11:59:11 -0400

Another thing to remember is being 30% disabled i get 10 points vets preference. Also i left the service after 14 years so i have 14 years that count toward federal jobs. If you aren't disabled that 10 points you don't get and if you retired your time in doesn't count for your either.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2015 12:38 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 17 Jun 2015 12:38:30 -0400

May McCulloch, welcome to the legions of puzzled people who feel as you do. Including me on occasion. If you mean you got a non-selection letter for a job (with or without an interview) count yourself in the lucky few who were even notified. If you mean your resume didn't make the cut to get on a list (and there may be more than one list or announcement), it could be that key words were missing from a resume/resumix screening, or some other technicality snafu--didn't supply required document/attachments, not in the "eligible category or failed to make it clear that you were); once in a while someone didn't accurately note your "actual" qualifications--which does happen now and then--to include your combination of education, volunteer work, etc. You might write/call and challenge it, but often too late-recommend you do so to go on record. Sure, some people say you might piss of the personnel folks, but if they are asleep at the wheel, wake them up. If you are currently in civil service and have a notice of rating for the same or higher position or skill in the career field or an SF50, send it in. Sometimes a military person definitely has the background and education, but is rated lowly because someone is using the Geneva Convention POW table for "equiv" positions such as CPT=GS9 COL = GS15 or some such. Yet in reality it should be more about level of responsibility and key words assigned by the manager--usually verbs/adverbs you can usually pull from the job announcement. There can be other interesting reasons we can save for a personal conversation.

Response by GySgt James Blassingame made Jun 17 at 2015 1:35 PM

GySgt James Blassingame — Wed, 17 Jun 2015 13:35:05 -0400

Some of the duties we do in the military do not all covert to the civilian world. We lack some of the skills or have more of others. You may not have been the most qualified, there are other individuals out there with the same amount of service time, but more education, or others skills you lack. Keep at it, I am a retired Marine in the HR world (federal Gov.) and served as an Infantryman for 20 + years.

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Jun 17 at 2015 11:51 PM

SSG Trevor S. — Wed, 17 Jun 2015 23:51:40 -0400

I got a letter telling me I was unqualified to run the on post recreational range. Sometimes it seems you have to place "I know Bob" somewhere in your resume to get hired to GS positions.

Response by SSgt Robert Clark made Jun 18 at 2015 12:04 AM

SSgt Robert Clark — Thu, 18 Jun 2015 00:04:39 -0400

I have applied for 5-6 fed jobs over the past couple years, not even executive level but just mid grade (gs7/9) and have been EXTREMLY careful to make sure my resume shows exactly what the job posting says they are looking for. On EVERY application I have not been considered because I am not the best candidate. 10 yrs 10 mos 28 days active duty and over 22 years in the civilian market and I am not even considered for an interview. Yep, it's all politics, they know who they want, they are just playing the game. It's all a big, fat f*ing waste if time.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2015 11:38 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 18 Jun 2015 11:38:25 -0400

It more than likely means that they hired someone "in-house" for the position that they had in mind all along but had to "advertise" the position to give others a "fighting chance."

Response by SSgt Everett Jones made Jun 18 at 2015 11:58 PM

SSgt Everett Jones — Thu, 18 Jun 2015 23:58:07 -0400

After 10 years of primarily mechanized infantry and 13 years as a heavy crew chief, I was told that they could not find a year's worth of general maintenance experience in my work history.

Response by SFC Steven Carlgren made Jun 19 at 2015 4:21 AM

SFC Steven Carlgren — Fri, 19 Jun 2015 04:21:27 -0400

Best of luck Sir! Keep yup your Warrior spirit.

Response by Licerio Ribeiro, M.S. MIS, CISSP made Jun 21 at 2015 10:19 PM

Licerio Ribeiro, M.S. MIS, CISSP — Sun, 21 Jun 2015 22:19:33 -0400

This is nothing out of the norm. Keep your head up, apply for everything you want (and qualified for) and pray. Good luck with your job search.

Response by Sgt Jesse Bailey made Jun 24 at 2015 1:40 AM

Sgt Jesse Bailey — Wed, 24 Jun 2015 01:40:12 -0400

I feel your pain... I recently applied to the State Department as an Information Management Specialist , passed the interview and was given a conditional offer dependent on my securing TS security clearance and medical clearance. I got both approved but the final review board denied me the job because of some negative entries in my credit report. I have a 620, but there were entries that came from my business that I closed back in 2008 during the market drop. I guess we can't have bad credit but the Govt seems fine about bailing out the banks that caused the crash. They say I can re-apply after two years but I'm not sure if I want to now.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 25 at 2015 11:41 AM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 11:41:15 -0400

Two things to remember when dealing with the United States Federal Government: first, the bureaucracy is so entrenched, so out-of-date, and so voluminous that the idiots (political appointees) who run our governmental agencies have neither the time nor the inclination to perform their official duties in any manner other than robotically. Second, terms such common sense and logic are either totally foreign to the aforementioned idiots or they were banned from the government's lexicon decades ago by a secret cabal of like-minded mental midgets!!! That vicious cycle continues to afflict and affect the effective operation and management of our government yet today, even as we speak.

I am truly sorry you can't get the job. A similar thing happened to me during the late '70s and early to mid-1980s when Affirmative Action was in its prime. I still refer to it as the "Only Tits and Tans" law. I was Número Uno on three different federal registers for about seven years, but I was passed over and passed over, again and again. To make a very long and involved story short, in a planned, but casual meeting over coffee with two longtime friends and extremely, highly placed federal law enforcement agency officials I met with in Kansas City circa 1983, I was told, by them, mano er mano, that I had a federal Reverse Discrimination lawsuit that had every earmark of being the case that could make the 1978 Bakke v. UC-Davis University Medical School decision look like child's play. But, even though they said I was sure to win and I would force the federal government to hire me, and even though I would work for mostly white individuals who would likely applaud my legal success, I would never, ever go "up" in my career because I had sued to get that job. They knew it, and I knew it. So, I stayed put in local law enforcement, and I occasionally ponder what might have been....

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 25 at 2015 5:00 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 17:00:29 -0400

The Federal hiring process is as red taped as possible, I'll try to explain what I know. And most importantly how to work the system.

There are several phases to the process, computer phase, eligibility and numerical rankings, then the human phase read resume, interview selection, and post interview determination. You need to find out how to get to the interview process first, that is the hardest part.

Phase descriptions:
The first is eligibility, you can't apply for a GS-14 position if you don't have 52 weeks as a GS-13 or have equivalent experience. A computer checks this based on your responses.
If you don't make that list you get a was not eligible message.

Next step is a computer based evaluation to see if you are a qualified candidate. The computer takes your numerical responses from the questions asked and only selects the highest numbered candidates. What this means is if you don't put all 5's a complete liar with no ability that did put all 5's will get referred over you. Of course when a human see's his resume they won't be selected for an interview. But a human being will never get to see your resume or even know you applied for the position if you don't grossly exaggerate your abilities (I'm in contracting and a 4 is not even legally possible so just put 5 on all the questions and you'll make the list)
Now if you don't make the list you get a "you were not among the most highly rated applicants" or similar message to what you received. Getting to a human is a challenge, there are so many liars that just apply for thousands of jobs and put all 5's that the number of real applicants get's thrown out before HR people ever get to see their resume as the computer only passes the top 10 or however many the human decides to look at. (most don't ever check the mediocre numerical responses)

After that point a human decides who to interview, the "you were referred but not selected message" means you made the list but didn't merit an interview. if you are never contacted about an interview the problem lies with your resume or your questions. Detailed responses after the questions is a key to getting through this step, the questions should be almost as detailed as your resume don't just put in this job on my resume as most officials won't check they need to be spoon fed with lengthy I'm great sentences)

After the interview is when the bias from incumbents come into play. Your message makes me think you didn't make the interview stage. So read the above and fix the problem. (if they wanted to use an incumbent they would have still been required to interview several candidates and you would have made the interview list then not selected) Most people don't understand the process and blame it on nepotism when in reality it's just they expect the system to be fair and not just a game of show.

If you are interview but are not hired you get the "another applicant was selected" message.

If you are selected you get a phone call asking if you accept and when you can start.

The main takeaway from this dissertation is to always put 5. It sounds dishonest and a poor way to apply as common sense dictates some 4's is honest, but it's a computer that can't reason only the 5's get through regardless of experience and what is on their resume only the math goes through.

My personal teaching moment was ACC Hunstville where I applied as a vet and only put 3 fours the rest were fives and the computer didn't forward my resume which means some vets put all 5's or there were other priorities (priority placement, military spouse applicants) I by far was overqualified for the position having worked foreign military sales, support contracts and major acquisitions, but the computer didn't know that.

So game the system don't let it game you.

Hopefully this will help some vets get through the process.

There are other great approaches you can do a non-competitive Veterans Recruitment Authority VRA hire up to a GS-11 (not sure if you'd work for that little) just requires networking with the decision makers go sell yourself in person. for higher than an 11 a VEOA is a good tool they many not know about.

Good luck.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 8 at 2015 12:00 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 12:00:29 -0400

I have tried for 3 years to acquire a govt position upon my retirement. All attempts fail with the same line, You were not selected as the best qualified. Makes you wonder how, I served 24 years to this nation and someone thinks my contribution is not worth the effort or time. The thing that is most upsetting is we are being deemed not best qualified by someone who has not worn the uniform. Extremely discouraging and somewhat humiliating as well. So what makes a Retired SGM with college degrees beat qualified?

Response by COL Jeff Williams made Jul 8 at 2015 2:13 PM

COL Jeff Williams — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 14:13:35 -0400

Yes, many times, especially on usajobs where I was told I was not qualified for a GS position. I am now overseas making much more

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 8 at 2015 2:50 PM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 14:50:07 -0400

I'm sorry to hear that sir, I got a lot of those email saying the exact same thing.

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Jun 29 at 2016 9:20 AM

MSgt Michael Smith — Wed, 29 Jun 2016 09:20:01 -0400

Networking and the idea of a 'known commodity' have an enormous amount of weight in the Federal Hiring system.