How does disagreement with police actions or court decisions transition to, "Let's riot, loot and destroy our city?"

2015-04-27T23:33:41-04:00

I absolutely do not advocate unnecessary force by police, nor do I advocate police brutality. But, I also understand that no one, but police, (perhaps Soldiers who have been in combat), have any idea what it means to go to work every day and not know if you will come home. Nor do many realize, that there are actually real bad guys out there. Also, not everyone the police deal with are innocent, as the media often portrays.

I also well understand peaceful protests and freedom of speech are allowed by our constitution and rule of law.

That said, I will never understand how disdain for our police, our government, our constitution, or our rule of law... rapidly transition to "lets go burn down our neighborhood and steal things?" I get the protests, but not the idea that we can steal and destroy because we are pissed...

Very confused, I am once again.

Response by SGT Anthony Rossi made Apr 27 at 2015 11:39 PM

2015-04-27T23:39:53-04:00

It's nice to know I'm not the only one who doesn't get this behavior. Thanks COL

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Apr 28 at 2015 12:00 AM

2015-04-28T00:00:08-04:00

I am having a difficult time empathizing with rioters, not peaceful protestors, but rioters. How is one raised to believe destroying one's own city is the answer? I don't live in Baltimore, MD, I have never lived there and I probably will never live there but why are they destroying their own city?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2015 12:01 AM

2015-04-28T00:01:28-04:00

COL Charles Williams Sir,
I think that it has to deal with a lack of leadership from the protesters. The non violent movements led by Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. were both well organized and had leadership that was able to keep the protesters in line. Today we don't see dynamic leaders leading these protests in a similar manner. A small portion of the protesters instigate the looting, and like a fire it spreads though the rest of the group unchecked.

Response by SSG Arnie Jones made Apr 28 at 2015 12:27 AM

2015-04-28T00:27:19-04:00

There was 1 mother out there beating on her son doing wrong. For this conversation only, I submit..

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2015 1:43 AM

2015-04-28T01:43:11-04:00

COL Charles Williams Sir, I am as much in the dark as you. I cannot begin to understand their reasoning here. This type of behavior does not further one's cause, rather it detracts from the intended message. Dr. King had the right approach at a time when the consequences were far greater (IMHO). Our constitution provides for peaceful protests, lately, these protests have been anything but peaceful.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Apr 28 at 2015 4:11 AM

2015-04-28T04:11:58-04:00

Make absolutely no mistake. People committed to social change organize, protest and raise awareness. These are the actions of criminals, who if they get caught, will claim that the man made him crazy. If there were businesses and more job opportunities available and grocery stores instead of corner markets there would still be drug dealing scum and people who are empowered to sit on their butt out of the sense of entitlement that comes with being a spoiled American. Need money, make babies. Don't get married, it will take away your food stamps. Have 6 kids with 6 women, don't pay child support brag about how many shorties you have. Get a criminal record for breaking the law and then complain that you can't get ahead in life, join the military, or go to college. Cut all your avenues of escape out of the cess pool you live in and then burn it down in the name of...........being a victim. I was so poor growing up I'm embarrassed to talk about it and joined the military so I could have a roof over my head and escape the crap hole I knew. All my "friends" are dead now. The last one died a couple months ago. I NEVER and I mean NEVER burnt down Philadelphia. I did go watch Osage Ave burn down when those MOVE members challenged the cops to a throw down, but I digress. What kept me out of trouble? Knowing that if I got out of line at home I was through. Am I saying beat your kids and put cigarettes out on them? HELL NO! But lay down the law! You are home at 6pm for dinner. You are going to complete high school. If you are getting in trouble with your "friends" I will lock you down until there is no more trouble. I will stay on you until so that you respect your elders from the get go. If you don't work a legit job I will find you legit work to do for free helping others. ETC,ETC,ETC.......

Response by SFC Stephen King made Apr 28 at 2015 5:33 AM

2015-04-28T05:33:17-04:00

The problem is people as a whole are easily motivated to be violent in response to outcomes that they have little control over. I am concerned that this is becoming the norm in society. I agree with the freedom of expression, speech and the right to protest. I feel that the violence and looting draws the line. It is also alarming to me that a Mayor of a city may have encouraged in word the aforementioned violence.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Apr 28 at 2015 7:32 AM

2015-04-28T07:32:38-04:00

The Right to Free Speech.

The Right to Assemble.

The Right to Protest.

Combine those with Abuses of Power, and it just becomes a mathematical equation.

Get too many people together. Get them angry enough. Get one person in a position of trust who abuses said trust one too many times, and things will turn violent. Once that happens, and "civilization" turns off like a like switch.

Humans, as much as I hate to say this, have "animal instincts." I'm not saying we're animals (though technically we are). I'm saying that it pushed to far, we will revert to a state where we don't use our conscious minds, and instinct takes over. Survival is just a powerful force.

Rational thought disappears, which leads to Rioting... the need to vent at ... well anything that is even close to representative of the problem. Destruction comes next. Looting is a survival trait when we see destruction. Save it from destruction. I know that seems counter-intuitive, and there are opportunistic thieves, but our "hard-wiring" just takes over.

The reason you don't "get it" COL Charles Williams is because you are a rational thinker, and this is counter to rational thought. It's like trying to understand the thought processes of a crazy man... but magnified to a group level. Rioters aren't thinking. They're acting, and acting on a level they likely don't even understand.

Response by CPL Rob N. made Apr 28 at 2015 8:03 AM

2015-04-28T08:03:59-04:00

What the communities of Baltimore failed to see is that they had the perfect stage in the beginning where the people could be the voice of the city and be heard. They needed representatives of the communities to be the mediators between the people and the city, turn their anger into something positive. The same Organizations/Governments the communities feel have been "controlling their lives", the people have just empowered them to tighten the grip even more.

If the communities would have been civilized and patient, waited for the completion of the police investigation into the incident with Mr. Freddie Gray, more respect could have been earned as a city, and more cooperation would have been gained from the Organizations/Governments.

But as we have seen in the news reports, it's not about Mr. Gray anymore. This is about personal gain and lawlessness. Opportunists taking advantage of a situation that would otherwise not present itself. When this all goes back to normal, and the streets are clear, the same one that were in power before, will still be in power after!

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Apr 28 at 2015 9:20 AM

2015-04-28T09:20:49-04:00

There is a different between protest and riots. One might affect change, the other...not so much.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2015 9:27 AM

2015-04-28T09:27:35-04:00

These are not protests. Protests have a reason and cause. This is revenge. They want others to suffer. They want to attack against the system. They don't want to change it or fix it. I feel bad for the family of the victim. They are seeing the loss of their son being turned into a excuse to pillage and riot. They are attacking anyone and everyone. Reporters are getting attacked. I looks like Iraq there. It is insane to see such things in our own country.

Response by A1C Dennis Schroader made Apr 28 at 2015 9:32 AM

2015-04-28T09:32:05-04:00

Of course there is a part of all this that is the legitimate outrage at abuses of power (real or perceived), but the rest is not legitimate, and that, I think, is what causes the looting and burning.

There is a cancerous mentality in America, particularly among the poor, that their plight is the fault of someone else. And I get it, I grew up in a poor neighborhood myself (AA hall across the street one way, crack house across the street the other way). I knew a lot of people with that attitude, and it did not matter what color their skin was.

Protests over legitimate outrage give people with that attitude an excuse to go out and "get theirs." It doesn't help that agitators (such as those funded by George Soros, a la Ferguson) encourage that behavior.

Response by Col Joseph Lenertz made Apr 28 at 2015 9:36 AM

2015-04-28T09:36:43-04:00

It's very sad, because we've seen the results of riots before. They destroy the city's already-fragile economy, and decades later, we still see the blight and empty buildings in Compton, LA, etc. It also pisses me off to see the gangs come in from outside Baltimore to instigate riots and burning in the city. They'll leave in a week or a month, and leave the people of Baltimore with the mess. The people of Baltimore should reject the outside influence and keep their own city intact. Fight the problem peacefully to reform police practices and policy...fire the cops (or charge them with crimes, if you have the evidence) with records of brutality...the Baltimore Chief of Police is ready to listen.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2015 10:13 AM

2015-04-28T10:13:12-04:00

SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP', Brother, as both a Black man and someone currently in the Baltimore area, I have covered you and your loved ones in prayer for safety.

I grew up in the Midwest cornfields, so from a firsthand perspective, I lack the credentials in the eyes of many to speak to this issue, COL Charles Williams. In fact, on more than one occasion, I have been told to my face that because I am a white male, I must learn and accept the reality that I cannot question the anger, fears, frustrations, and resentments within the American Black community because my doing so would only re-victimize them, and I had already done enough damage! This was at a teacher's workshop called "Checking Your White Privilege." Because the facilitator fostered an environment where I felt my questions were not welcome, I walked out.

I mention this experience because it seems to me to be part of the broader trend coming from academia that perpetuates the notion that because Black Americans have been the victims of racial prejudice and institutionalized racism in the past, the practice of civil disobedience; up to and including the widespread destruction of commercial and private property through acts of looting, arson, and vandalism is not only justifiable, it is seemingly now encouraged. Consider the Saturday remarks of Baltimore Mayor Stephanie Rawlings - Blake; who in addition to providing a safe place for those protesting the death of Freddie Gray, also sought to provide a safe place for those wishing to destroy property! Yes, the Mayor of Baltimore essentially endorsed the mess she now has on her hands. But the disturbing point of evolution here in my opinion is the fact that if elected officials no longer see it as their obligation to employ the police to protect the private property of their citizens, who will fill that void? These same politicians bemoan the proliferation of guns on the streets, but they won't get rid of them now if the folks in the neighborhoods don't feel they can count on the cops when the stuff hits the fan!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2015 10:22 AM

2015-04-28T10:22:29-04:00

IT DOESN'T!

Martin Luther King Jr. is rolling in his grave right now. This is not what he fought and died for. This is not the message. There is something to be said about a group that can gather and peacefully march, hand in hand, to get their message across. These thugs are ruining perceptions.

It's very easy to get irate and burn and steal things. I challenge them to do what MLK quoted.

Response by COL Vincent Stoneking made Apr 28 at 2015 10:37 AM

2015-04-28T10:37:35-04:00

Personally, I am just waiting for the demands that it be rebuilt.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 28 at 2015 10:43 AM

2015-04-28T10:43:47-04:00

I wonder what percentage of protesters are disenfranchised members of society. When passions run high, the mob mentality will come to fruition.

Response by PO3 Steven Sherrill made Apr 28 at 2015 10:52 AM

2015-04-28T10:52:50-04:00

There are two kinds of people that show up during a time like this. There are those who have a genuine concern for the people of their community, and wish to speak out against a perceived injustice. This applies not just to this case, but across the board. These are the people who make their signs, chant loudly, and AT WORST block traffic or access to a government building. This is the kind of peaceful protest that I have no problem with. If I agree with the position great, if I disagree, shrug it off and go about my business. It is their right to be heard regardless of where anyone else stands on their position.

The second kind are those who do not care about injustice, grievance, or bettering their community. They are the ones who see a hot button issue as an opportunity to wreak havoc, and maybe improve their own situation at the same time. These are the cowards who hide their faces, commit acts of violence against people and property, and then loot what's left.

The first kind of people are the ones who suffer when the second kind of people begin to assemble. At that time a protest transitions into a riot. As the rioters become greater in number, the protesters are pushed aside by the mob, and that leads to pillaging. I think that is the time when the police and National Guard (when deployed) need to be armed with rubber bullets, and they need to use them. The problem is they need to temper their use of force in a volitile time like this. Too little force leads to pillaging, looting, and the burning of innocent people's livelihood. Too much force leads to more brazen violent confrontations. The balance is difficult to achieve, and the difficulty is compounded by emotion, adrenaline, stress, and the pure volatility of the situation. It is not an unenviable position to be in. Much like a military operation, it is the front line that bears the brunt of it as they are the first point of contact.

When I was in the Navy, my ship took part in graduation ceremonies at Annapolis. I was fortunate enough to get to Baltimore while we were there. I thought it was a beautiful city. I met people there that were decent people. Overall I think most people are decent enough. It is sad that these assbags have usurped a families misery, destroyed the neighborhoods that they live in, and made the situation worse than it was.

One thing I saw this morning that enraged me was the grieving mother of Freddie Gray being forced to put aside her misery to implore the rioters to stop destroying the city. So much for protesting injustice. In my opinion, it is an injustice that the family was not able to mourn on the day of the funeral because of other people's selfishness. I am going to be crystal clear here. I am not refering to the people who were protesting peacefully. I am referring to the rioters who broke from the protests and began engaging the Baltimore PD to the point that the national guard needed to be called in. The rioters are inhuman scum. No parent should have to bury their child, but when it happens no parent should have to stop mourning because their loss has been usurped.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/baltimore-riots-mother-of-freddie-gray-gloria-darden-appeals-for-peace-as-violence-grips-city-10209935.html

Mother of Freddie Gray: 'Don't tear up the whole city'

As rioters ransacked and set fire to their own city, the mother of Freddie Gray – the young black man whose death in police custody was blamed for triggering the violence – went before the cameras and appealed for calm.

Response by SSG John Erny made Apr 28 at 2015 10:55 AM

2015-04-28T10:55:33-04:00

Once again the Police Point Out that the trouble makers for the most part are coming from outside the neighborhood. It is almost as if it were an organized crime in action; one group raises hell and keeps the police back and the other steals everything around. Some how I suspect gangs being involved with the fires and looting for none other than money. It has also been reported that the Bloods and the Crips are even working together now to kill police officers.

It was great stand by the local churches to come out in force to try and stop the stupidity; they did not to harm anyone or burn anything. Their only message was peace! The Criminals did not seem to care about that either; they had no respect whatsoever for people from the community! Then to burn down a church, that is about as low as it gets.

Response by CPL Charles Gale made Apr 28 at 2015 11:49 AM

2015-04-28T11:49:15-04:00

It is our right to peacefully assemble however once that Assembly is no longer peaceful protester should disperse or move away from the illegal activities. Doing this would ensure their safety and clear the way for law enforcement to be able to better protect the assets of the community. If a protester starts to riot cause physical damage to other people or property they are no longer considered peaceful in their assembly and should be arrested for their criminal acts. Also if peaceful protester comes to the aid or interferes with law enforcement during the arrest there too are breaking the law and again should be arrested.

There is a right way to do thing and there is a wrong way. My city has a lot of historic building and I'll be damned if I just sit back and watch someone attempt to destroy it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2015 1:20 PM

2015-04-28T13:20:37-04:00

Did I hear that schools were cancelled. If they were how could/would that action help this situation?

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Apr 28 at 2015 1:20 PM

2015-04-28T13:20:51-04:00

Simply thugs and criminals taking advantage of any situation to steal and destroy property.

Calling them "protestors" and trying to rationalize or justify the reasons behind their actions does nothing to rectify it. The only way to deal with them is through arrest, prosecution and incarceration. An example needs to be made of them to dissuade others from doing the same thing.

I understand the societal situation that has contributed to the lawlessness, but that does not justify it nor does it mean that we need to walk softly in our response instead of carrying a big stick. Nothing will resolve the situation but prompt and efficient police action. Once the situation has been brought under control, the underlying issues can be addressed, but we simply cannot condone lawlessness because of underlying social issues.

Response by TSgt Jackie Jones made Apr 28 at 2015 1:46 PM

2015-04-28T13:46:11-04:00

I, also, and very confused. And angry.
I do not know where the disconnect is in the population these days. When did parents stop teaching their children to have respect for all other humans and property?
How about just the golden rule?! Treat others as you want to be treated?!!

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Apr 28 at 2015 1:59 PM

2015-04-28T13:59:14-04:00

Never underestimate the power of the herd mentality combined with the allure of free stuff....

Response by PO1 Glenn Boucher made Apr 28 at 2015 3:04 PM

2015-04-28T15:04:03-04:00

While I do understand that people are pissed off with recent decision and actions, they want and demand change but unfortunately many people get caught up with the violence when it breaks out.
I think its a lack of trust in the system and that the system is broken.
I strongly believe that if minorities want change they have to make the change and get involved. You can sit here all day and say that Ferguson has a 95% white police force, but ask this question.....are minorities trying to become police officers? Same for city council positions, they are usually held by whites in most places but again are minorities getting involved? Are minorities trying to make positive changes or are they just saying "its always been like this and nothing will change". Nothing will change unless people get involved. You want a better life then you need to work for a better life, nothing is going to be given to 95% of the people on a silver platter.

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Apr 28 at 2015 3:17 PM

2015-04-28T15:17:44-04:00

I have been on the receiving end of the Los Angeles Riots (1965, 1992), Jalalabad, Afghanistan 2005 Quran burning riots, Parwan, Afghanistan 2006 riots, all I can say is that humans and easily be manipulated to being stupid and breaking laws. But kudos to the Mother seen slapping her teen age son who she caught involved in the Baltimore riots. We need more mothers like her.

Response by SSG John Erny made Apr 28 at 2015 3:35 PM

2015-04-28T15:35:35-04:00

Angry mother beats son for participating in Baltimore riots

Now this is clearly part of the solution, parents who care enough to stop their children from acts of violence and stupidity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRlmCf1Kj2o

SSG Michael Hasbun, TSgt Jackie Jones, COL Jean (John) F. Burleson, Lt Col Fred Marheine, PMP, COL Charles Williams

ORIGINAL: Angry mother beats son for participating in Baltimore riots

This mother didn't take kindly to her son participating in the Baltimore protests and riots that happened in response to the death of Freddie Gray. The angry...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2015 3:45 PM

2015-04-28T15:45:25-04:00

http://video.foxnews.com/v/ [login to see] 001/baltimore-mom-smacks-son-for-throwing-rocks-at-police/

This Mother DOESN'T Agree!!

Baltimore mom smacks son for throwing rocks at police

Raw video: Enraged mother dishes out discipline after seeing son participating in riot

Response by SPC David S. made Apr 28 at 2015 5:57 PM

2015-04-28T17:57:02-04:00

Nobody seems to be concerned with the numerous transgressions against society that Mr. Gray committed and as usual the focus is on the results of situations as apposed to looking at the real root causes that lead to Mr. Gray's death.

Here is Freddie's rap sheet.

March 20, 2015: Possession of a Controlled Dangerous Substance
March 13, 2015: Malicious destruction of property, second-degree assault
January 20, 2015: Fourth-degree burglary, trespassing
January 14, 2015: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance, possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute
December 31, 2014: Possession of narcotics with intent to distribute
December 14, 2014: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance
August 31, 2014: Illegal gambling, trespassing
January 25, 2014: Possession of marijuana
September 28, 2013: Distribution of narcotics, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance, second-degree assault, second-degree escape
April 13, 2012: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance, violation of probation
July 16, 2008: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance, possession with intent to distribute
March 28, 2008: Unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance
March 14, 2008: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to manufacture and distribute
February 11, 2008: Unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance, possession of a controlled dangerous substance
August 29, 2007: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute, violation of probation
August 28, 2007: Possession of marijuana
August 23, 2007: False statement to a peace officer, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance
July 16, 2007: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance (2 counts)

What bothers me about this is that the black community seems to justify the anger towards police and civil authority in general for Gray's death but not owning up to any of the responsibility in how the black community has failed Mr. Gray. Is being a young black 25 year old male arrested over 20 times a success story? No, yet it was allowed to happen with in the black community. Take this anger and channel it into positive change - fixed the single family home, challenge gangs on the streets, challenge gun violence, and the drug dealers and their idolized status. Tearing up the town only encourages apathy in investing and only further condemns these communities to be a refuge for drugs, gangs, violence, and decay.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Apr 28 at 2015 9:12 PM

2015-04-28T21:12:29-04:00

Response by LTC Paul Heinlein made Apr 28 at 2015 10:47 PM

2015-04-28T22:47:12-04:00

COL Charles Williams,

I try not to waste brain power on trying to "rationalize the irrational".

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 29 at 2015 9:12 PM

2015-04-29T21:12:32-04:00

Young people riot when their team wins national championship, so I wont say it is done exclusively for social rights or messages.