How do you reconcile the psychological burden of killing within the context of the Christian faith?

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 Nov 2020 12:30:33 -0500

This question primarily for Christian theologians and mental health providers, although I'm interested in other unique and creative perspectives as well. It originally developed for me while I was attending a graduate seminary where pacifism seemed to be the default philosophical posture around me.

Response by SGT James Murphy made Nov 11 at 2020 12:33 PM

SGT James Murphy — Wed, 11 Nov 2020 12:33:44 -0500

It sounds like you are like many others have confused scripture. To oversimplify the part of scripture referred to is often said as "though shalt not kill" Actually that's not accurate. It says though shall not MURDER. There's a Big Difference.

Response by SGT James Murphy made Nov 11 at 2020 1:33 PM

SGT James Murphy — Wed, 11 Nov 2020 13:33:51 -0500

On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman
By LTC (RET) Dave Grossman, author of "On Killing."

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Nov 11 at 2020 1:36 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Wed, 11 Nov 2020 13:36:31 -0500

Read the Bible- that is is the old Testament= and translated several times. How can the Bible say They shalt not Kill- and in the next 3 chapters God tell the Israelites to completely wipe out other tribes down to and including their livestock? Look at the Ten Commandments as being yanked out of the Torah, which had them as part of all the Jewish ways of living. Separating foods to prevent contamination and food poisonings, etc. Understand it in the Old Greek or Latin where it said "Thou shal not Murder" something you shouldn't have in a closed society to keep blood fueds at a minimum.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Nov 11 at 2020 2:36 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Wed, 11 Nov 2020 14:36:22 -0500

The bible is filled with murder, rape, genocide, the slaughter of infants and children, calls to war, etc... Often for little to no reason.
The taking of life shouldn't be hard to reconcile with your faith.

Response by Cpl Mark A. Morris made Nov 11 at 2020 5:47 PM

Cpl Mark A. Morris — Wed, 11 Nov 2020 17:47:12 -0500

It is my understanding MAJ, turning the other cheek twice is expected. After that, escalation of force is warranted. A Christian is not suppose to be looking for a fight, or be mean. However, Christian does not mean everyone is Amish.
As you are aware, every situation is different. Blessed are the peacemakers.

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made Nov 11 at 2020 7:00 PM

SSG Roger Ayscue — Wed, 11 Nov 2020 19:00:38 -0500

Sir, I read the commandment as "Thou Shalt Not Murder". With this being said, We are told in Ecclesiastes, that there is a time of War and a time of Peace. David was a Soldier and was a man after God's own Heart. Therefore, God knows the people that are His children and what they may have to do. He is the same Yesterday, Today and Forever and He knows this is not the world that He envisioned for us, it is a broken shell of it's past glory.
He also knows that we are a broken people. Sin entered into the world, making it a broken world, filled with broken people. All we can do is pray for Peace, and follow the simple instructions in II Chron 7:14, "If my people, who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray, and turn from their wicked ways and seek My face, THEN will I hear from Heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.
I reconcile my service to the thing that my former pastor once told me before I went in. IF all the Soldiers who Pray and trust in God were not in uniform, then who would God bless with victory?
God knows that we are broken, and one day, like the loving father that he is, He will heal the World, until then, The Soldier must stand on the wall and man his post.

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 11 at 2020 7:34 PM

SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 Nov 2020 19:34:19 -0500

My concern as a Christian was never “how am I supposed to kill?” Because we are commanded to protect our nations and our families. The Bible is full of war. My question was, “when the time comes to kill or be killed, will I feel guilty or will I be glad? Will I love what I do too much? How do I continue to do my job without becoming the monster I intend to destroy?” And through prayer I got my answer. Don’t focus on killing the enemy, focus on protecting your unit, your country, your friends and your family and God will handle the rest.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2020 8:42 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 Nov 2020 08:42:03 -0500

I'm not itching for a fight. I'm not looking for a fight. But, if it comes down to someone engaging me and wanting to take my life, it's a matter of kill or be killed. It's either they go home to their family or I go home to mine.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2020 8:51 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 Nov 2020 08:51:42 -0500

I feel it has to do with the heart and intent. There is a difference between outright murder and fulfilling a military commitment/doing your job.

Response by CH (MAJ) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2020 10:54 AM

CH (MAJ) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 Nov 2020 10:54:50 -0500

Many of the answers provided are on the right arena. From a theological perspective, as an evangelical Protestant pastor, I lean on the work of Paul Ramsey, whose ethic centered on Jesus's command to love your neighbor.

To butcher his answer, and skip over the historical development of his casuistry, his answer is that even in self-defense, we're to love self-sacrificially; however, he teases out the difference when an innocent third-party is at risk. When Neighbor A is violently attacking Neighbor B, and you have the ability to stop the attack, the most loving thing to be done is to stop Neighbor A.

Thus, it's less about turning your cheek, but instead about turning someone else's cheek for them.

The flippant pacifist will ask, "Who would Jesus kill?"
And I would flippantly retort, "Who would Jesus allow to be murdered?"

Response by PO3 Kenneth Suvanto made Nov 12 at 2020 1:54 PM

PO3 Kenneth Suvanto — Thu, 12 Nov 2020 13:54:30 -0500

That's kinda of an Easy One Maj Phil Sir...Obey the laws of your government. Plus, you have a conscience and know the difference between right and wrong so, follow what your heart and soul is saying. Sincerely, Ken

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Nov 12 at 2020 2:12 PM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Thu, 12 Nov 2020 14:12:43 -0500

There’s murder and just killing. Killing in self defense is justified. Killing as part of a military force is justified. Killing innocent life for profit or convenience is not justified. Killing for entertainment, profit, self gratification is not justified and may be psychotic.

I don’t have all the verses at hand, but the Bible does say God uses military forces to carry out his will and to keep order. The
first Gentile convert to Christianity was a Roman Army officer.

Response by SSG Dale London made Nov 13 at 2020 12:43 AM

SSG Dale London — Fri, 13 Nov 2020 00:43:35 -0500

This is an issue I wrestled with first as a soldier and again later as a chaplain. I found that just war theory as espoused by Saint Augustine Saint Thomas Aquinas helped a great deal. Quoting from wikipedia (because I'm too lazy to look it up in the stuff I have in my office): "Just war theory postulates that war, while terrible (but less so with the right conduct), is not always the worst option. Important responsibilities, undesirable outcomes, or preventable atrocities may justify war."
What it boils down to is this: if the war your are fighting (which necessarily includes the killing of the enemy) is being undertaken for the right reasons, there may be no sin in killing. Remembering that God told the Israelites to wage war, and that Jesus healed the servant of the Centurion -- as well as instructing his disciples to sell their robes and buy a sword -- we can deduce that the profession of arms in and of itself is not necessarily viewed negatively by the Lord. Rather, He judges us on the rectitude of our actions while doing the work of a soldier. That is to say, He looks into our hearts.
That does not mean we should kill with abandon or that we should take it as read that the death we bring in battle is perfectly okay in the eyes of God. It may or may not be but we cannot know because God is the sole judge of sin.
Instead, treat every death as something to be regretted, even though necessary, and lean on the promise we have in 1 John 1:9. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Response by SSG Dale London made Nov 13 at 2020 12:11 PM

SSG Dale London — Fri, 13 Nov 2020 12:11:22 -0500

I've been dipping into the thread at a number of points and it strikes me that we are forgetting something basic here. God knows who we are and He knows what humans are like. There are bad people out there who will do bad things if they are not stopped.
The gift of free will means that some people will choose evil -- it is the nature of humanity.
It is also true that, left unprotected, good would quickly be destroyed by evil. Thus, we wrestle not against flesh and blood. Unfortunately, that with which we do wrestle often sends flesh and blood against us.
So, do we cower and simper, hoping that "God will save us"? Or do we obey Jesus, sell our cloaks and buy a sword? And what use do you imagine Jesus had in mind for those swords? Sharpening pencils? Chopping lettuce? No! A sword is for fighting and, if necessary, killing.
God has myriad attributes. Impracticality is not one of them.

Response by MAJ Jim Woods made Nov 13 at 2020 12:26 PM

MAJ Jim Woods — Fri, 13 Nov 2020 12:26:30 -0500

I believe that the Scripture Applies here: If you feel a loss or guilty about what you have done... you are in the wrong profession. I spent 21 Years in the Army and 67-70 in Vietnam. I never felt bad about shooting someone who was shooting at me. In some cases, we were assigned to ambushes and I followed the orders of those over me. I think that covers it.

Response by SSG Eric Blue made Nov 13 at 2020 2:47 PM

SSG Eric Blue — Fri, 13 Nov 2020 14:47:01 -0500

I wish I had a real answer for that question. I know I'll have to answer for what I've done on judgment day, but I also know that a number of my brothers and sisters in arms WOULD NOT be here if it were not for the actions I took while deployed. It does still bother me from time to time, but I can't let it slow me down or it may overtake me.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 13 at 2020 3:48 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 13 Nov 2020 15:48:28 -0500

I view the killing of a human being as being very serious business for the simple fact that humans are image-bearers of God Himself. With that said however, the Bible is clear that there are certain times when killing humans is allowed. I don't know how one could read the Bible and come away with any different view on the subject.

Response by SPC Michael Terrell made Nov 13 at 2020 10:04 PM

SPC Michael Terrell — Fri, 13 Nov 2020 22:04:02 -0500

The same words were used for kill and murder. One of the Ten Commandments were not to murder. If you read the old testament there are many battles, and God didn't condemn the soldiers for killing their enemies. Murder is premeditated. Fighting in a battle isn't.

Response by CW3 Dan Mackey made Nov 14 at 2020 12:22 AM

CW3 Dan Mackey — Sat, 14 Nov 2020 00:22:18 -0500

I would guess you are struggling with the Thou shall not kill commandment? The thing is it actually is thou shall not murder. There are many direct actions in wars in the old testament. There is a great scene in the movie about Sgt York where he speaks to a chaplain about it.

Response by SPC John Tacetta made Nov 14 at 2020 11:39 AM

SPC John Tacetta — Sat, 14 Nov 2020 11:39:59 -0500

You don't. What part of "Thou shall not kill" is unclear to you? I guess you can put some salve on that if you're shooting at the invaders advancing across your fields, but God (or Moses, at least) is pretty clear on killing. Me? I don't have such qualms, but I never could understand the hypocrisy of Evangelicals in the Infantry (they were just starting to filter in as I filtered out). I suppose you could frame it by saying that unbelievers are not people if you're trying to clear your conscience. Killing is brutal, scarring. Full stop.
As Abraham Lincoln said: "The only good thing about war is its end."
Or, more recently, Jimmy Carter: "War may sometimes be a necessary evil. But no matter how necessary, it is always an evil, never a good. We will not learn how to live together in peace by killing each other's children."

Response by Lt Col Gary Odle made Dec 4 at 2020 3:17 PM

Lt Col Gary Odle — Fri, 04 Dec 2020 15:17:56 -0500

As a retired Air Force chaplain I can say several things. 1) The word "kill" in the Ten Commandments could be more accurately translated from the Hebrew to "murder". Killing in combat is not the same as murder. 2) Sometimes, in an imperfect world (the only world I am aware of, by the way) the most godly thing you can do in the presence of evil is to stop the evil from taking place. To stand by and do nothing while evil runs unchecked is not within the nature of God nor in us as followers of God. And finally, 3) St. Augustine dealt with this a great deal in his theory of what it means to have a "Just War". Read up on that for more clarification. You will find that to be very helpful to you. You'll thank me later.

Response by SFC Tim OReilly made Dec 6 at 2020 9:40 AM

SFC Tim OReilly — Sun, 06 Dec 2020 09:40:15 -0500

I don't, or try to not, hate my enemy. As a Christain I'm commanded to love and obey God and to love others as myself. Yet in a time of struggle, not always open war, I made a choice that I would defend those I know and love the most and gave an oath to protect first

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Dec 6 at 2020 10:35 AM

SFC Casey O'Mally — Sun, 06 Dec 2020 10:35:09 -0500

This is probably not the answer you are looking for. I am deeply Christian, but no theologian. I have a lot of experience with mental health - but from "the couch" not from "the desk." And while I am pretty smart, I am amazingly simple, philosophically speaking. With hard work, most things, in my opinion, can be reduced to simple concepts and simpler choices. That being said, here is my simplistic view.

One very clear distinction must be made: killing vs. murder. Murder - the unnecessary taking of a life - is wrong. Always. Killing - the taking of a life (without context) - MAY be wrong, depending on context. But it can be right, morally, ethically, and legally. As many have already mentioned, the Commandment is often interpreted as "thou shalt not kill," but is more accurately interpreted as "thou shalt not murder." While this may seem academic, the distinction is important. The Old Testament is full of the Israelites being COMMANDED to kill - even after Moses came down with the tablets. It is obvious, to me, that the God of the Abramaic faiths is A-OK with killing - as long as it is justified.

The question, then, for me, is not about KILLING, but about JUSTIFICATION. This is a much trickier question. Defense of the nation is a great legal justification - an almost unassailable one. But is it an unquestionably applicable MORAL justification? What if it is in defense of a CORRUPT nation (I.e. Nazi Germany)? What if the nation is righteous, but this particular war is not (as many would argue about US in Vietnam or US in Iraq)? What about a righteous war with questionable tactics (as many would argue about the same two wars, plus Afghanistan), or specifically questionable actions, such as enhanced interrogations or "leave no witnesses" orders (which, lets be honest, are very rare and not something a normal servicemember encounters EVER).

In these much more ambiguous places, I fall back to a sort of "moral betterness" stance. When faced with this decision to kill in a morally ambiguous situation, which is MORE right? Most of the time we are faced with these decisions, we do not have time to make a flowchart or map out pros and cons. In fact, I would argue that if we have that kind of time, there is almost NEVER the need to kill, but I digress... Usually, we are left pulling the trigger now, and figuring it out later. But even later, we can still look at what the intent was. Were you trying to protect yourself? Protect others? Defend your nation? Were you trying to get revenge? Assuage guilt or anger? Did you just want to try to kill more of "them" than they had killed of "your side?"

When we reduce it down to the simplest of terms and the simplest of concepts - which is hard work, to be sure - the morality of the killing usually becomes clear.

I have never had to kill anyone, so I cannot speak from experience. I have had to do some things which, under "normal" circumstances may be considered morally questionable. My conscience is mostly clean. The few instances where I was unable to rectify my military actions with Christianity, I have prayed, sought forgiveness, and (where possible) atoned with the injured parties.

We are all sinners. Murder is another sin amongst many - one of the most egregious, to be sure, but still one amongst many. Atonement and forgiveness for murder is different from any other sin only in scope, not in nature. God's mercy knows NO bounds, save those we place upon it by not asking.

Anyway. That's my "simple man's" answer.

Response by SFC Art Robinson made Dec 18 at 2020 2:15 PM

SFC Art Robinson — Fri, 18 Dec 2020 14:15:29 -0500

As I was first considering military service (early 80's), I wrestled with this question. Then I saw a movie (I believe it was "SGT York" with Gary Cooper) wherein he was wrestling with the same question. Sitting on a hilltop with his Bible, the wind blew the Bible open to Jesus saying, "Render unto Caesar . . ." That answered it for York (at least our movie version), and, as I reflected upon it, for me as well . . . For our Country to survive, some percentage of Her population must take up arms in Her defense . . . Couldn't reconcile it as being very "Christian" to leave that responsibility only to "unbelievers" . . . Once in, gravitated toward more support MOS's (medic, career counselor), and when deployed, actually volunteered to give the "Prayer for the Enemy" portion of a prayer service we did before moving into combat zone . . . But never had any doubt that, if situation called upon pulling the trigger, I would . . .

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 19 at 2020 12:41 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Dec 2020 12:41:28 -0500

Luke 22:38 - And they said, “Look, Lord, here are two swords.” And he said to them, “It is enough.”

Response by SSG Ray Elliott made Dec 26 at 2020 3:18 PM

SSG Ray Elliott — Sat, 26 Dec 2020 15:18:55 -0500

The Ten commandments including "Thou shall not kill" were given to Moses who led his people out of Egypt to Israel. The book of Exodus also contains an account of the Jews waging war. So there is some leeway in interpreting the commandment to exempt participating in a war for the good of your Nation. I'm guessing a more accurate interpretation of the commandment would be to not murder.

As a Christian though you do have to rectify the words of Christ found in the new testament. Christ's words were much more pacifistic. His words were mostly about your personal conduct, and not as much about how a government should defend themselves against aggressions.

This is probably a question for you to work out before you enter the military, but most of us justify our role as being part of the Nations defenses, and as a peacekeeping role in the World. I think almost all Christian religions feel it's alright to participate in your nations military, and police, etc. If you're really struggling with it a talk with your chaplain might be in order, I'm sure he's addressed it multiple times.

Response by MAJ James Burns made Jan 18 at 2021 12:20 PM

MAJ James Burns — Mon, 18 Jan 2021 12:20:16 -0500

The issue of killing as it refers to the Commandment is often misunderstood. The original Commandment is "Thou shall not murder". For some reason this has been transitioned into thou shall not kill. As is discussed in other comments, the Bible is full of examples of "killing" for defensive and self preservation purposes. Murder is the deliberate and premeditated taking of a human life. Killing to protect one's being, family, countrymen and/or country, if a fact of life recognized in scripture.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Jan 18 at 2021 12:34 PM

CPT Lawrence Cable — Mon, 18 Jan 2021 12:34:03 -0500

Generally, Jewish and Mainstream religions translate that to mean Don't Commit Murder. It is very apparent that the old Testament did prohibit killing in defense of the state, a lot of old testament heroes were warriors, from Samson through David. Many religions interpret Jesus's command to render into Caesar as an indication that you still have a duty to the state. Remember, " He who has no sword, sell his cloak and buy one" is not a statement made by a pacifist.

Response by LTC Ronald Stephens made Jan 31 at 2021 5:51 PM

LTC Ronald Stephens — Sun, 31 Jan 2021 17:51:22 -0500

I'm a Christian also so the first time I encountered hostile fire my fight or flight instinct took over. Flight was a non issue as my demise would have been a certainty so fighting and the resultant killing was the order of the moment. The instinct for self-preservation overcomes the learned Judeo-Christian ethic as its applied to killing. Besides, being shot at with a recoilless rifle pissed me off. I think a Catholic priest put it in perspective a long time ago: 'Love thy neighbor as thyself but not More than thyself.'' Its horiffic what a close artillery shell burst does to the human body. I felt neither sadness or guilt but glad as hell I was still alive and that VC recoilless rifle team wasn't. Coming down from an adrenalin high was an interesting experience though. I was so jacked up I couldn't sleep for a spell.

Response by SPC Jim Pfeifer made Feb 8 at 2021 11:08 PM

SPC Jim Pfeifer — Mon, 08 Feb 2021 23:08:13 -0500

Killing someone who is a immediate threat is not murder if it is done to protect the lives of yourself or others God did not say not to kill ,He said we should not murder others. There is a difference.