How do you feel about unearned promotions?

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 09 Jun 2014 07:43:20 -0400

I am concerned about our future leaders. I have watched over a dozen people get promoted and which they do not deserve. Just so I was not being biased, I confided in a friend to see their take on it. They agreed. It seems like E4 and E5 is handed down. The promotion boards I have sponsored soldiers to are too easy now. As a squad leader I am force to take soldiers to the board even if they are not deserving. I have even seen soldiers fail ncoes schools more than once and then taken to the promotion board without completion of these ncoes schools. These are our future leaders of the Army. Why aren't we fixing this?

Response by SSG Joshua Locke made Jun 9 at 2014 7:59 AM

SSG Joshua Locke — Mon, 09 Jun 2014 07:59:01 -0400

I hate it. We had a fat greasy slob in 2008 and got an automatic promotion to SSG even though he couldnt pass PT or pass tape. Makes me sick. But then you have guys like my old squad leader that was a super BAMF and he couldnt get picked up because points were so high. He was E-5 for 6 years before he received a battlefield promotion. Something should be done.

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Jun 9 at 2014 9:46 AM

SGM Matthew Quick — Mon, 09 Jun 2014 09:46:35 -0400

What makes you feel these Soldiers did not earn their promotions?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 9 at 2014 10:29 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 09 Jun 2014 10:29:16 -0400

SGT Williams, If you are sponsoring these Soldiers at a board then you have the chance to stop them. If you truly feel that they do not deserve to be promoted, and you have documentation to back it up, as well as have utilized the chain of command to voice your concerns then there is only one thing left to do. When you go to the board to sponsor the Soldier (against your will as I understand it) take the counseling packet that should have all documentation backing up your claims, and express your concern to the board panel when introducing the Soldier.

I would like to think that if you had already elevated your concerns of being "forced" to sponsor a non deserving Soldier at a board to the 1SG or CSM, then you would not have to do it again at the board. Sometimes you have to put your foot down, and if you are right, then you are right!

Response by SSG Shannon Howe made Jun 9 at 2014 2:56 PM

SSG Shannon Howe — Mon, 09 Jun 2014 14:56:17 -0400

While I do see some good points in the OP and comments, I also know to take these types of posts with a grain of salt. As with many other situations, whether or not a Soldier is "deserving" of promotion is a very subjective subject. Just because the promotion system was different when you or I or anyone else got picked up for SGT and above, does not necessarily mean it was a better way of determining good leadership potential. IMO, a monkey could memorize regs and regurgitate them at the modified position of attention in a chair in ASUs, as well as do any number of basic warrior skills. Does that make the monkey a good leader/future NCO?? Just some food for thought. In closing, ensure that you have performed personal PCCs/PCIs before you try to judge someone else's performance and potential. You can lie to yourself if you want, but the mirror won't. Just saying.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2014 4:15 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 16:15:11 -0400

I have seen it done many times. One of my team leaders in 2ID would do none recommendation counseling to me cause I didn't know my job but a guy that kiss ass and score high on his pt and just came to active duty went straight to the promotion board. Or guy's that would be extremely disrespectful to senior NCO get promoted. But I am told regularly I'm a great soldier. Make some sense out of this. I can't.

Response by PO1 Shannon Drosdak made Sep 13 at 2014 3:46 AM

PO1 Shannon Drosdak — Sat, 13 Sep 2014 03:46:32 -0400

While I don't know how other branches work on the promotion side I have to say I have seen this happen way to often on my side. We just changed how our "test" works, but in the past time in rate and awards were a big help for points towards the tests. If you study and scored high you made rank. Than there's those that by attending "schools" were promoted and send to the fleet. Book smart but no common sense. It was very frustrating, especially when an E3 has to train an E5 whose never been on a ship but that E5 is senior. Even if you get a promotable eval and score high on the test part you could out do that early promote guy who knows everything but just can't get the test down, but knows the daily operations and requirements to run the shop like no other. I've looked at the tests a few times and said to myself when have I ever used this question when will I ever? Example: what temperature is a torte cooled to and served? When the hell am I gonna make a torte? It's not on any cycle menu?!?! Maybe if I worked in a flag billet (which I have and no Admiral ever asked for a torte) I know it's not suppose to be "easy" but can it at least deal with what will be used in the fleet? Questions on fresh herbs and spices? Never once have I worked with those for a "service" meal! These people aren't certified professional chefs, the questions come from civilian chef books? Most meals now days are pre-made, or half prepped. I'm not shocked or amazed when I have a kid come in and asks how to make mashed potatoes from scratch anymore, because they made E4 out of school, or E5 off a test and don't know the basics of their job. No training but hey they got the rank now it's our jobs to teach em the basics. It's sad.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Sep 13 at 2014 9:33 AM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Sat, 13 Sep 2014 09:33:55 -0400

My first question to you SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member is what have YOU done to fix this? Have you voiced your concerns to your PSG? Have you provided any counselings to the PSG on the undeserving board attendees? While I would agree that promotions seem to be too easy, this has been going on for the last 7-8 years and we NCOs have all kind of had to deal with leaders that "force" us to send people to the board before they are ready or deserving. I am not trying to bust your chops, but again what have YOU done to attempt to fix this?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2014 11:12 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 13 Sep 2014 11:12:19 -0400

It happens. I don't like it, however, it usually works itself because when you get the rank, more responsibilities follow and usually that individual is always asking for help real fast

Response by SSG Terry Back (Martin-Back) made Sep 14 at 2014 12:06 PM

SSG Terry Back (Martin-Back) — Sun, 14 Sep 2014 12:06:48 -0400

My last two years on active duty, I was an instructor at an NCO Academy, (1993-1994). I witnessed soldiers who had no business in leadership positions because they had not been trained by their supervisors. In my case, if the soldier passed their exams and met minimum standards, they received their certificate, even if they had limited leadership skills. Leadership is a learned skill and if any unit has limited leadership, at all levels, it will reflect in the future success or failure of a unit. It is the senior NCO who has to document why a soldier is being denied the opportunity for promotion by having clear and concise counseling comments and recommendations, (god forbid I should bring up; task, conditions and standards). Having read several threads, it's clear to me, several contributors are lacking skills in communication and writing which should be a cornerstone in leadership. NCO's, train your personnel, take responsibility for your their success and future, as personally as you train for your success.

Response by SFC Carlos Taitano made Oct 5 at 2014 10:40 AM

SFC Carlos Taitano — Sun, 05 Oct 2014 10:40:34 -0400

Enlisted Soldiers that simply do their job or what is required of them receive an automatic promotion when they reach the designated number of months of service. They are not your stellar Soldiers or even your trouble Soldiers (these Soldiers you counsel and recommend either an early promotion or recommend not to promote),

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Dec 28 at 2014 3:17 AM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 03:17:05 -0500

SGT (P) Vanessa Williams, As a leader is our responsibility to counsel our own Soldiers to make that paper trail. The initial counseling needs to state the standards needed for a successful Soldier experience followed by monthly performance counseling statements. These counseling statement need to state whether or not they are ready for promotion. That is out part, but if someone high than us wants to send them to the promotion board and we say no and we might be asked why, show them the counseling packet.

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Dec 28 at 2014 3:32 PM

CMSgt James Nolan — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 15:32:22 -0500

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member Not sure that I am tracking. Are you being ordered to take troops not ready for promotion to a board? Can you not report back to COC that you have nobody?

It would seem that your COC would want to know who is go/no go when it comes time for promotion recommendations.

I would also be wary of putting my unit's business out on the street...consider speaking in more generality. For example:

I am concerned about our future leadership. I have been told my other SMs that troops with the following issues (failure at NCOES etc) have been recommended for promotion boards. That the boards may be lessening in difficulty and that as a result, troops not prepared for promotion are getting promoted. Has anyone on RP heard this or something similar?

The reason I say this, is that when speaking in generality, you can get an opinion. When speaking in specifics, you can get a spotlight!

Just friendly advice, not stern criticism. Good luck.

**Also, I see that this is a old post, but it popped up again because of a comment.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2014 3:54 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 15:54:22 -0500

I feel like I have to agree with a lot others on this post, that it is most likely a local issue. We have multiple people, who even though they have passed WLC, and are not flagged, who are still not recommended for promotion. If the leadership here does not see people exhibiting leadership potential, they are not going to recommend they appear before the promotion board. It is as simple as that, if someone is not already stepping up as a leader, and trying to live the NCO creed, even as junior enlisted, they are not ready to become an NCO.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 17 at 2015 9:07 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 17 Jan 2015 21:07:24 -0500

Sergeant Williams,

True, I have seen several Sergeants (E-5) who don't seem ready for their rank. Especially prevalent are those who present an unprofessional image either in person or in their social media profiles, and fail to even recognize that they're presenting an unprofessional image. I find it ironic that some of the most unprofessional Sergeants are the first to complain that others "don't deserve" their promotions.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2015 1:33 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Jan 2015 13:33:08 -0500

Depends on what you deem is unearned. Some would say that boards aren't a way of determining a leader and in the AF, I think most don't feel the passing of a written test is definitely not a good way of determining leaders. I cannot speak to the rules of the Army but I do know that we should only worry about what we can control. Maybe someday you will be in a position to change the problems you see and so taking notice of this now is good but fretting over it won't do any good. You have clearly done enough to make it as an NCO so be happy with where you are going and just remember the difference you want to make in the Army.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2015 5:03 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 25 Jan 2015 17:03:27 -0500

Touchy subject.