How do you feel about the army reducing physical fitness standards for females and older soldiers?

2022-03-25T10:43:01-04:00

“Following a three year review the Army has scrapped plans to use the same physical fitness test for all soldiers, choosing instead to have reduced standards to allow all women and older soldiers to pass.” Announced March 23, 2022.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2022 11:22 AM

2022-03-25T11:22:30-04:00

I assume they are having trouble with retention and Covid didn’t help. I suppose you have to do something to keep the numbers up. But as an offshoot it could affect morale good and bad.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2022 11:58 AM

2022-03-25T11:58:08-04:00

How is the new scoring standards in regards to age and gender any different than the prior PT test standards? Have we not allowed for gender and age considerations prior? To think that there is no change to physical abilities as one ages; or between genders is ridiculous. I believe a 6 category PT test exceeds the 3 category of prior. So I would say the standards have not gotten reduced. Just my opinion though, I could be wrong.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Mar 25 at 2022 12:17 PM

2022-03-25T12:17:41-04:00

Am I missing something? While the pass and 100 percent standard for women changed drastically, it just looks like the eliminated the categories on the Men's side. Didn't see a lot of difference in the scoring until you hit the above 40 group.
I never had a problem with the gender scoring systems of the APFT. I did have a problem with the Army having a separate PT Standard and claiming the female soldiers are the physical equal of the male soldiers.

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Mar 25 at 2022 12:35 PM

2022-03-25T12:35:25-04:00

Where did you get that quote from?
Who announced that?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2022 12:38 PM

2022-03-25T12:38:59-04:00

I see it as the Army finally saw some common sense in that not every single Soldier is made the same. Some great at running...others not so much. Others are great at push ups...others not so much. And while the standards may be "lowered," it is still up to the Soldier to pass the events. Having done the 3 event test for years.....and now the ACFT, I can say that the new test....while with newer/updated standards....will kick your six.

Response by SFC Kelly Fuerhoff made Mar 25 at 2022 1:09 PM

2022-03-25T13:09:37-04:00

I think we all knew this would happen - and nothing on the ACFT was ever final anyway before this. So they didn't really reduce the standards when there were no set standards to begin with. The standards were constantly changing this whole time.

I have just over 2 years left to retire - I'll take this. I wouldn't mind if "phased implementation" was "phased" another year honestly!

Response by SFC Kelly Fuerhoff made Mar 25 at 2022 1:13 PM

2022-03-25T13:13:45-04:00

Source: The Hill, https://thehill.com/policy/defense/599459-army-approves-reduced-physical-fitness-standards-for-women-older-soldiers

Also quoted in that article:

"Service leaders hoped the newer test — the first such change in more than 40 years — would better replicate tasks needed for combat while reducing the risk of injuries.

But the new fitness curriculum was quickly criticized after it became clear women, older male soldiers and National Guard and Reserve troops had difficulty passing it.

About 44 percent of women failed the test from October 2020 to April 2021, compared to about 7 percent of men, Military.com found at the time.

“ACFT scores collected during the diagnostic period show some groups failing at noticeably higher rates,” the RAND study states. “The biggest impacts are observed for women, but we also see differences in pass rates across components, with the U.S. Army Reserve and the Army National Guard lagging behind the Regular Army, and across military occupational specialties.”

It wasn't just women or older soldiers not passing - there were issues among Guard and Reserves as well.

Army approves reduced physical fitness standards for women, older soldiers

Following a three-year review, the Army has scrapped plans touse the same physical fitness test for all soldiers, choosing instead to have some reduced standards to allow women and older soldiers to pass, the service anno

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Mar 25 at 2022 3:21 PM

2022-03-25T15:21:52-04:00

Sir,

If over 90% of troops in a given category (Female, over 40, National Guard, etc.) can pass the existing fitness standard and less than 60% in that same category can pass the new standard, chances are pretty good that the problem isn't the troops, it is the standard.

Now, you can argue whether the problem is that the existing standard is too "soft" or the new standard is too hard. But either way, the problem is the standard not the troops. We have told these Soldiers - and our Recruiters, Drill Sergeants, and IET Commanders - what "fit" is. If previously "fit" Soldiers become "unfit" overnight - in mass quantities - then something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2022 3:26 PM

2022-03-25T15:26:41-04:00

This is nothing more than Army leadership failing to acknowledge sunk costs on what was always a highly flawed test since inception. Instead of pulling the plug, like what happens in hundreds of failed RDT&E projects, Big Army doubles down on the program to avoid embarrassment. Now they don’t even claim it is an assessment of “combat readiness”, which was the whole point of the new test in the first place.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2022 4:35 PM

2022-03-25T16:35:23-04:00

It's kind of a no-brainer. If physical fitness standards are part of promotion evaluation, and one group biologically will always score lower than another, then you have just disadvantaged one group and opened up a class action lawsuit.

The Army either had to get rid of PT standards in promotions or make them more fair. Some of the standard are the same for women and men, and some are not. Anyone who expects the majority of women to deadlift 340 pounds is ridiculous, especially when you consider how many younger females in the Army weigh under 150 pounds. If a woman who weighs 100 pounds deadlifts 180, while a guy who weighs 200 deadlifts 300, by most athletic standards the woman has outlifted the man by body weight percentage.

As for this being a combat test, how many people who have successfully deployed as an Intel, commo, HR, transportation, supply person have had to drag a 200 pound person or deadlift 300 pound? Very, very few. Not enough that the promotions of every support MOS should be heavily influenced by it.

Also, I would like to point out that the male standards really did not drop with age. Once you hit about 50, sure the max drops. But when you're 50 your PT score is not a factor for promotion between you and your other 50 year old peers.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2022 9:29 PM

2022-03-25T21:29:22-04:00

With the equipment requirement of the ACFT, all things being equal (presuming the same soldiers pass and fail) there will be fewer USAR soldiers with current passing scores in DTS.

A for record ACFT will be more on par with a weapon qual event. Units with limited access to the equipment and lanes will not be able to conduct Ad Hoc record tests every month at Battel Assembly. There will be a fixed window of probably 2 opportunities to take a record ACFT.

As such, those with uncompromising civilian conflicts will be met with uncompromising USAR requirements and believe it or not the USAR gets placed 2nd in priority in many cases. Therefore, statistically more soldiers will simply fall out of the window for record ACFT's in DTS than otherwise would have with the APFT when they could have made it up the following BA with the group of flagged soldiers doing it anyway.

This presumes the same pass/fail rates as before, scheduling in the USAR will simply cause a decrease in reported readiness.

For example, it was only yesterday I found out the final HARD TIME for my AT that will happen in 2 weeks. Yes, I have to bend over backwards to meet AT obligations and it pisses me off every single year for the last 10 years that this happens with scheduling. My willingness and probably that of many many other soldiers would not bend over backwards to meet a Record ACFT date that keeps floating around.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2022 10:48 PM

2022-03-25T22:48:28-04:00

And an excerpt from the Daily Mail article @ link. And —> an interesting/troubling read.

“... Secretary of the Army Christine Wormuth, the first woman to lead the armed forces branch, said during her confirmation hearing that she planned to revamp the fitness test with an eye to closing the gender gap...”

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10645629/Woke-army-introduces-new-easier-combat-fitness-test-women-armed-forces.html

Woke army introduces easier combat fitness test that lowers standards

The Army is changing several of its fitness test exercises including the dreaded leg tucks in favor of planksbecause about half of all female soldiers were unable to complete the exercise.

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Mar 26 at 2022 3:51 PM

2022-03-26T15:51:10-04:00

If the Army would listen to me, we can fix all of this. Grading standards based on 5 digit MOS.

18 year old male 11B1O has the same standard as a 40 year old female 11B1O. Because we expect them to do the same job. But we do NOT expect the same from an 11B4O, AND DEFINITELY not the same from a 88M4O. (And yes, I would guess that the standard goes UP from 10 level to 20 level in most MOSs). And each MOS is also allowed to disallow some permanent profiles. You can no longer run? No combat arms for you. You cannot lift more than 35 pounds ever again? No combat arms or combat service support (those folks do some serious lifting and never get credit for it). You have no depth perception? No 88M for you. Etc.

If you choose to come into the Army at 35, you better be ready to run with the pups. If you are a female in a "male" MOS (yes, I know there are no male MOSs, that's why it is in quotes), then best be prepared to meet that standard. And if you are an old, broke male, who can't hack it in the Infantry (or Cavalry, or FST, or combat medic, etc.), that's fine... welcome to Intel/Logistics/Signal/etc.

Standard by MOS just makes so much more sense. And not just broad categories like ACFT tried to do at one point - this should be part of the Critical Task Review Board that every MOS conducts periodically. What does each MOS actually NEED to function in their individual and collective tasks at each skill level? As an example, when I was working JSTARS, we had an really big antenna, that, in its big shipping container (the "coffin"), weighed 280 pounds. The Army decided this was a 7-Soldier lift. The problem with this is that a JSTARS squad, by MTOE, was 6 Soldiers. An organic JSTARS squad could not move all of their own equipment. So that MOS would have a requirement to lift and carry 50 pounds for skill levels 10 - 30, because that is who would be carrying the antenna. And thusly, a fully staffed organic JSTARS squad would be capable of moving all of their own equipment. 40 levels weren't part of the JSTARS squad, they were positioned at higher echelons, so their requirement could drop down. (JSTARS is no longer its own MOS, so this example is moot. But it demonstrates the point.)

And then, to solve the "promotion points" problem of sexual discrimination, the test is a simple pass/fail. Either you meet the standard or not, just like Body Composition. No "bonus points" for being Chris Hemsworth in an 88M unit.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Mar 26 at 2022 7:28 PM

2022-03-26T19:28:28-04:00

Damn Sir, they have always had scoring on a scale based on age.

Response by PO3 Patricia Knight made Mar 28 at 2022 1:37 PM

2022-03-28T13:37:12-04:00

Good for them it is about time

Response by SMSgt Bob W. made Apr 3 at 2022 2:01 PM

2022-04-03T14:01:22-04:00

The big problem is today's society has a "one rule for all" mentality. Guess what, it never works. Most older people can't do what they did at 25 years of age. Men can't do things women do; on the flip side women can't do what men can. It's call biological make-up. This is another political correctness program. Today's leadership need a plexiotomy in hopes of seeing the big picture this have missed.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2022 12:51 PM

2022-04-18T12:51:13-04:00

This question really boils down to what you think the test is designed to do. Is it designed to test how many pushups someone can do? Or is it designed to determine their level of fitness? Studies showed that your performance on the test did not correlate to your performance in combat, which was the original logic behind having a set standard for everyone. The previous test was specifically to determine how healthy You Are by Fitness. One thing people need to understand is that I as a male if I do 100 pushups in a female does 100 push-ups, she is in significantly better shape than I am.

Response by 1SG Patrick Sims made May 6 at 2022 8:28 AM

2022-05-06T08:28:26-04:00

I'm not picking on anyone when I say this---but---This is the UNITED STATES ARMY---The same army that will eventually be called upon to defend the American People---If you want a free ride without the required physical standards---Join the SALVATION ARMY

Response by 1SG William O. made May 14 at 2022 1:41 PM

2022-05-14T13:41:02-04:00

Look, first of all no thought was given to the logistical nightmare of having the Reserve and Guard units not located on an installation administer this test. Second, the original ACFT was really geared towards 17-38 year old active component Soldiers who are young and have access to train 27/7. Reserve and Guard Soldiers are citizen Soldiers serving up to 60 years old who have civilian jobs and families outside of the military. These changes needed to happen and are for the better.

Response by PFC Michelle Gauthier made May 24 at 2022 12:37 AM

2022-05-24T00:37:20-04:00

Ask this question when you are senior or a female..

Response by SFC David Ocasio made Jun 23 at 2022 1:17 PM

2022-06-23T13:17:10-04:00

Where were all these so called experts in 1981. I guess no one cared about our welfare. Hey by the way it did us good. Lowering the standard brings less qualified people in my opinion. I thought when someone joined the military they were to adapt to the standards not the other way around

Response by Sgt Allen Wyman made Jun 23 at 2022 1:36 PM

2022-06-23T13:36:55-04:00

Not trying to make light of the situation here, but being physically fit in the military is not just to look good in uniform, it is essential in being able to carry your weight and be a working part of the combat unit. My belief is that all should remain as physically fit as possible, so they can carry their load. Thank you.