How do you demote an NCO who is proficient in their work but your PLT SGT says that you're inefficient and has no evidence on how?

2015-11-27T16:11:10-05:00

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2015 4:29 PM

2015-11-27T16:29:41-05:00

You cant.

Response by COL Jon Thompson made Nov 27 at 2015 5:02 PM

2015-11-27T17:02:48-05:00

You cannot demote a person in rank unless it is a disciplinary issue. And I do not believe that a commander can exercise UCMJ authority over a Soldier unless they are on active duty orders. Now they can reassign duties which could be looked at as a demotion in position. Even still, that should not happen unless there is a counseling record. Unfortunately in my experience, counseling in the USAR often leaves something to be desired. The Soldier always has the IG channel if the chain of command does not work.

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Nov 27 at 2015 5:57 PM

2015-11-27T17:57:37-05:00

Can't. In fact, one of the biggest disciplinary issues that leaders face is a "lack of evidence" when issues are presented. If you do not have documentation, as the saying goes, "it did not happen". You cannot approach a Commander and say "well there was this one time, sometime last year where x happened".
As a leader, you have to memorialize the good actions, and sadly the bad. The only way to demonstrate a pattern of behavior is to have documentation of it.
COL Jon Thompson Sir, there are now states that have implemented "State Codes of Military Justice" that mirror the UCMJ, but make it applicable to Guard units. So status stops being an issue for dealing with disciplinary issues.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Nov 27 at 2015 6:03 PM

2015-11-27T18:03:31-05:00

Has he given an initial counseling and follow up counselings?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2015 6:17 PM

2015-11-27T18:17:58-05:00

The Promotion Authority can reduce for inefficiency IAW AR 600-8-19 Chapter 10.
Excerpt below:
Section III
Reduction for Inefficiency
10–5. Policy
Inefficiency is a demonstration of characteristics that shows that the person cannot perform duties and responsibilities commensurate of the Soldier’s current rank and MOS. For the purpose of administrative reduction, inefficiency must be predicated on a pattern of acts, conduct or negligence that clearly shows the Soldier lacks the abilities and qualities normally required and expected of the Soldier’s rank and experience. Although CDRs may consider misconduct, including conviction by civil court, as bearing on inefficiency, misconduct alone will not be the basis for an administrative reduction under this paragraph. Soldiers may be administratively reduced under this authority for longstanding unpaid personal debts that he or she has not made a reasonable attempt to pay. An administrative reduction for inefficiency is limited to SGT and above and to one grade (unless formally declined by the affected Soldier, reduction boards are required as provided for in para 10–1c).
10–6. Criteria
a. A Soldier must have served in the same unit for at least 90 days prior to being reduced for inefficiency.
b. The CDR initiating the reduction action will present documents showing the Soldier’s inefficiency to the reduction authority. This may include:
(1) Statements of counseling and documented attempts at rehabilitation by chain of command or supervisors.
(2) Record of performance, acts, conduct, or negligence during the period concerned.
(3) Correspondence from creditors, attempting to collect a debt from the Soldier.
(4) Adverse correspondence from civil authorities.
c. Documents will establish a pattern of inefficiency rather than identify a specific incident.
d. Reduction for inefficiency will not be used for the following:
(1) To reduce Soldiers for actions for which they have been acquitted because of court-martial proceedings or civil proceedings.
(2) In lieu of UCMJ, Article 15.
(3) To reduce a Soldier for a single act of misconduct.
e. The CDR reducing the Soldier will inform him or her, in writing, of the action contemplated and the reasons. The Soldier will acknowledge receipt of the memorandum by endorsement and may submit any pertinent matter in rebuttal. Any matter submitted by the Soldier must be considered by the reduction board and reduction authority prior to rendering a decision.

However, in the USAR the Promotion Authority is not the final word, as orders are issued by the governing RRC. Brigade and above commanders would have to endorse the reduction.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2015 6:39 PM

2015-11-27T18:39:36-05:00

Why would you want to demote an NCO that is proficient in there work? If you think they are doing a good job fight for your soldier.

Response by SSG Clarence Blackburn made Nov 27 at 2015 8:33 PM

2015-11-27T20:33:04-05:00

You can't if you don't have paperwork to back it up.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2015 9:19 PM

2015-11-27T21:19:28-05:00

By board or court martial only.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2015 7:14 AM

2015-11-28T07:14:47-05:00

It is real important to have supporting documents, i.e. initial counselings and subsequent counseling

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2015 8:36 AM

2015-11-28T08:36:36-05:00

Not possible w/o forming a case. W/no case, no evidence. Try to do this w/no evidence and not getting JAG involved, you will be subject to a congressional...and the turd your trying to get rid of will get rid of you. Sad truth of the matter...:(. Best way is to change his/her medical and mental fitness....

Response by COL Randy Alicea made Nov 28 at 2015 7:27 PM

2015-11-28T19:27:46-05:00

Sounds like a negative environment for that soldier. Time to get with someone who can help him move on.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2015 1:12 AM

2015-11-29T01:12:25-05:00

I believe you already know the answer being a SSG. No documentation, i.e. quarterly counselings, specific counseling s, if it is not documented somewhere in the Soldier's file, don't waste your time. Just setting yourself up for an appeal when you hand him/her their NCOER and also making yourself look unprofessional.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2015 4:56 AM

2015-11-29T04:56:09-05:00

If the PLT sgt is saying you are inefficient but all your soldiers are performing tasks you push down then the PLT SGT is pushing unrealistic expectations on you and you are not communicating back to the senior realistic expectations. It sounds like a communications issue more than anything. As far as your soldier is concerned he is more caught in the middle and you need to fight for him. You are his leader and need to stand up for your joes more.

Communication is critical as far as tasks, backbone and integrity is more than saying yes, it's putting your word on something that it can be done by X time and fulfilling it before that time.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2015 12:54 PM

2015-11-30T12:54:32-05:00

It's a difficult task unless the platoon Sgt has supporting documentation. Such as sub par NCOERs or DA 4856 counselings to support the request for demotion

Response by CW3 John Rusyn made Dec 1 at 2015 1:38 PM

2015-12-01T13:38:09-05:00

You don't. Without documented facts , this may simply be a case of I don't like the solider. If the Solider is the dirt bag, than Plt Sgt. Needs to start writing counseling statements.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2015 7:48 AM

2015-12-03T07:48:48-05:00

Can't do crap without valid counseling a and NCOERs

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 6 at 2015 11:30 PM

2015-12-06T23:30:21-05:00

Without the proper documentation it's impossible to do.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 11 at 2015 5:34 AM

2015-12-11T05:34:43-05:00

Good, Bad, or Indifferent; without the supporting documentation, there isn't much that can be done except reassign duties or stand up for the Soldier. Little things like this help define you as a leader. It is going to sound silly; but look in the NCO Creed to see what you should do, then dig into the Regulations to see how to do it.

Response by CPT Mark Gonzalez made Dec 25 at 2015 12:15 PM

2015-12-25T12:15:43-05:00

They have to have the proper documentation. Once they realize they need documentation a few things may occur.

1. They will review the situation and maybe realize they are wrong and start counseling you properly moving forward.

2. They are lazy and will drop it due to the time it takes.

3. They will attempt to capture the past behavior in new counseling statements. There is no statute of limitations for a counseling and they can address things long past, but the counselings themselves cannot be back dated. Do not sign an improperly dated counseling as that would be unlawful order.

If counseled and you disagree with what is stated or they try to use old dates I would request legal review. You are entitled to due process, but until they start to document things they don't have much.

They can still reflect their opinion in your evaluation, but even there you have to have the documentation otherwise it is just going to be thrown out. The new reg on ncoers is specific in the redress process.