How could one back into the fully loaded costs it takes to train a new soldier to meet the required Marksmanship Standard?

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 07 Apr 2021 18:50:38 -0400

I am exploring the idea of writing a paper supporting marksmanship programs and policies with the main pillar of justification being economic benefit (because that's what anyone ever really cares about).

There is a fully loaded economic cost to train a soldier from the ground up to reach the Army standard, and then the cost of continued qualification and training. What is that cost? I suppose if I was tied into the the annual budgeting for TRADOC at the micro level I could pull those numbers out (as a finance professional) but I don't have access to said data.

As a competitive shooter, I do not get anything from the Army by way of my hobby, but the Army still benefits from the fact I can show up to any range qual any time with any pistol or rifle and I will crush the Army standard. Thousands of soldiers that competitively shoot on their own time do so as well.

So if a program was more open to supporting a soldier's participation in local shooting venues the direct economic benefit of that would be the cost the Army would have incurred itself to get him to that level of skill.

Response by SSG William Jones made Apr 7 at 2021 7:04 PM

SSG William Jones — Wed, 07 Apr 2021 19:04:36 -0400

Great intentions and I support your intent. You are aware of the political quagmire that you will be entering...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2021 9:17 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 07 Apr 2021 21:17:51 -0400

All they care about is metrics. If somehow...some...way someone could prove a pilot program increased lethality while saving money (does DOD actually care about that?) then I'm sure it could be expanded across the force.

Response by CPL Douglas Chrysler made Apr 7 at 2021 11:08 PM

CPL Douglas Chrysler — Wed, 07 Apr 2021 23:08:19 -0400

England came to greatness in part due to the long bow and the men who trained mostly by themselves from a very early age. From the president on down legislators are doing their very best to remove that same advantage from the American Army.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2021 8:43 AM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Apr 2021 08:43:24 -0400

Technically the army has competitive shooting program such as she Army Marksmanship team. There is also badges (distinguished marksmanship badge) and the coveted presidents 100 tab. What was done in my active duty days One first sergeant, not even my 1SG announced to the entire battalion that he wanted to form a team to compete all army and president's 100 and we would go on our downtime go on the range and practice learn marksmanship long range target shooting and again he would get us approved orders to go and compete in these programs (ft Benning, camp perry, ohio) it was great I enjoyed it even got a AAM when we placed high in the competition or won. The all Army marksmanship unit even assisted us when we went over to Fort Benning and literally took us under their wing and gave us additional training we got some certifications from them in rifle and pistol marshmanship which they do give out for 40 hour and 24 hour instructions. It was a great time.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2021 10:10 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Apr 2021 10:10:47 -0400

Are you reinventing the CMP?

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2021 10:16 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Apr 2021 10:16:18 -0400

2004 we just had the BDE HQ reserve ALL the M4 ranges on Campbell for a week. The entire BDE went to the range and you didn't leave until you were Expert.
We just don't go to the range anymore like we used to, we don't train like we used to. too many taskings and other stuff get in the way.
I think incentive like this would be good, but I don't see it being large enough to affect the Army as a whole.
There will still be those who plain old suck at shooting holding everything else back. At Stewart we couldn't train ARM because the whole Troop wasn't qualified at BRM, even though the Soldiers I was going to do ARM with were all BRM complete.

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Apr 8 at 2021 12:16 PM

SFC Melvin Brandenburg — Thu, 08 Apr 2021 12:16:20 -0400

There are papers similar to this already in the scientific literature. However, not specifically this as far as I know. To get access tot he data, you could contact respective departments, explain your research, and often times you will be given access.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Apr 8 at 2021 2:54 PM

CAPT Kevin B. — Thu, 08 Apr 2021 14:54:40 -0400

The numbers rattling around lately are around $200 Grand to get a full up MIL through A School. That's cheap vs. around $11 Mil to create a F-22 pilot. Getting back to the cheap end, it's likely no more than 10% of that cost to fuss with trigger pulling. Marines would up that a bit. There are some analytical tools out there, but they need valid number inputs for which there might not be much available.
I do relate to your situation as I shot on the PAC Fleet team. Talk about a Seabee officer being an odd fit. Not as odd as the dentist next to me. In real terms, if you meet standard on quals, anything more is pretty much a yawner because your bosses don't get any more beans for it in most cases. Also, you don't have your SM rig with you downrange and your job isn't to be popping things at 1000 meters.

Response by SSG Samuel Kermon made Apr 8 at 2021 3:14 PM

SSG Samuel Kermon — Thu, 08 Apr 2021 15:14:31 -0400

Good question. However, I don't have an answer for you, sorry.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2021 7:48 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Apr 2021 19:48:52 -0400

This sounds like a persuasive paper or white paper. I think the challenge for you is proving your idea could/would out perform whether economically and tactically systems that are already in place such as the Engagement Skills Trainer (EST) and other electronic systems that are already being utilized and paid for. Not to mention that fact that sometimes these systems are operated by a TL or SL. This excludes all the research done by individuals mentioned by someone earlier in this thread. From what I've seen the DoD has their favorites when it comes to innovation and technology. I could be wrong. Im not the SME on this topic just giving my two cents minus one.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2021 10:07 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Apr 2021 22:07:57 -0400

I have reached out to the authors of :
"Cost to Increase Probability of Hit"

It might be more than I could have hopped for, because it looks like they tracked the more you shoot the better you get and the cost associated. I was just hoping to get the cost of passing TRADOC marksmanship minimum.