How come MORAL INJURY doesn't decline as we use machines to kill the enemy without seeing him?

CH (MAJ) William Beaver — Thu, 14 May 2015 16:15:18 -0400

As we are increasingly able to destroy the enemy from further away using machines and precision missiles - without even laying eyes on him, why don't the cases of moral injury decrease, instead of remaining the same? Does facing the enemy close up versus at long-range affect the frequency of moral injury?

Response by SFC Joseph James made May 14 at 2015 4:16 PM

SFC Joseph James — Thu, 14 May 2015 16:16:56 -0400

Interesting question. I would say that like for a UAV pilot you still see the deaths on camera and knowing you pulled the trigger and killed someone could still cause grief and regret.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2015 4:17 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 14 May 2015 16:17:55 -0400

Sir, I think that since killing is killing no matter how its done, its still killing. Whether it be up close or from a camera view, that person pulling the trigger still has to live with it

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made May 14 at 2015 4:54 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Thu, 14 May 2015 16:54:10 -0400

I won't make assumptions on both scenarios, but what is constant is adrenalin, lack of sleep, anxiety for a year. That is very destructive for the mind and body. Moral injury or guilt are anchors, and you have to cut the chain because the anchors will only cause you pain.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2015 4:54 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 14 May 2015 16:54:49 -0400

I think that killing from far away via UAVs, precision missiles, etc. actually has the potential to increase moral injury instead of decrease it. When the fighting is up close and personal there is a sense of "them or me" that can take up a bit of the moral injury that occurs in taking a life. But when all you have to do is push a button or punch in a code, sometimes literally from the opposite side of the world, there is no imminent danger to self and thus no "them or me" moment.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2015 5:24 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 14 May 2015 17:24:32 -0400

Is there data saying that moral injury has remained the same?

I feel moral injury has probably decreased however there is a perception that it has remained the same or increased due to the amount of attention currently given to PTSD research and soldier welfare following 10+ years of conflict.

In the past this information just wasn't reported like it is today so I think it is hard to come to a scientific conclusion.

Response by Capt Mark Strobl made May 14 at 2015 5:33 PM

Capt Mark Strobl — Thu, 14 May 2015 17:33:15 -0400

I'd have no reservation calling an airstrike on a platoon of tanks --Those are inanimate things. And watching "highlight reels" of UAV strikes... well... that's almost like watching my kid on the PlayStation. Morality sets in if/when the shooter has actually personifies the target.

Response by SCPO David Lockwood made May 14 at 2015 6:32 PM

SCPO David Lockwood — Thu, 14 May 2015 18:32:54 -0400

I believe it becomes less personal and more game like when you came sit hundreds of miles away and push a button to fire a extremely accurate and highly effective weapon.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2015 8:56 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 14 May 2015 20:56:53 -0400

I agree with the people regarding the stand off weapons systems probably feel more as if it is a game. I was an 11C Indirect Fire Infantryman - mortars - and after fire missions, my Hooahs would be dancing like kids and celebrating. On this note, you have a group of people who can't see the enemy and are sure of our mission and belief system. This gives them a surety of purpose and also a support system to sweep away doubt. Moral injury occurs later down the road as the reults (or lack thereof contribute to self-doubts. This is true for all crew-served weapons in my experience.

Individual rifle men while a part of a fire team, at first percieve events as a me or them scenario and are able to overcome our strong human compulsions about killing. However they see the results of their actions and can't help but empathize with s fellow Soldier (even though he is an enemy). I've had many guilty friends out there after they see pictures of their foe's families beat themselves up down the road.

For UAV pilots and Rocketmen, I suspect that they cause death through their actions, but are not part of a close-knit team. I suspect also that they may face ridicule if they admit their jobs (from such extreme stand off range) cause them guilt, stress, or anxiety.

We are all human beings and hold life sacred. In overcoming these deep seated beliefs we mentally scar ourselves. Two great books that talk in detail of at least part of this phenomena are "Men Against Fire" by SLA Marshall and "On Killing" by David Grossman.

Response by PO1 Glenn Boucher made Sep 14 at 2015 12:22 PM

PO1 Glenn Boucher — Mon, 14 Sep 2015 12:22:36 -0400

In my opinion its because a human being is still making that decision to "pull the trigger".