Holding Soldiers Beyond Operational Requirements

SPC Benjamin Smith — Wed, 04 Feb 2015 09:09:24 -0500

What is your opinion on keeping Soldiers in the duty AO after all mission requirements have been accomplished within a duty day? Should Soldiers stay in the AO until COB even with nothing to do, or should they be released early when possible?

Response by MAJ Monique Salinas made Feb 4 at 2015 9:41 AM

MAJ Monique Salinas — Wed, 04 Feb 2015 09:41:24 -0500

It's in the NCO creed about not wasting a Soldier's time.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2015 9:46 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Feb 2015 09:46:39 -0500

As the NCOIC of a TPU that is only 13 people deep, there is always something for my people to do. If I can get them back to the house early, great. But, that is rarely an option since we have to cram 30 days worth of work into 2 days.

Response by CW3 Clayton C. made Feb 4 at 2015 9:47 AM

CW3 Clayton C. — Wed, 04 Feb 2015 09:47:48 -0500

There is always something that can be accomplished. Training is the first thing that comes to mind.

Response by COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM made Feb 4 at 2015 9:51 AM

COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM — Wed, 04 Feb 2015 09:51:53 -0500

- Soldiers generally work more than 40 hours a week on a routine basis. I would go so far to say that a normal work week is 60 hours (12x5).
- I have always used the assumption that it all comes out in the end. Therefore if the work is done and there is nothing to do then do not do it at work.
- A possible risk in early release is that last minute changes/orders come down. This can be mitigated via text/phone that was not as prevalent 20 years ago and by company level leadership underwriting these decisions by subordinate leaders. If BDE/BN push last minute things for execution that day then this should highlighted and discouraged, if not eliminated. Unless a unit is in combat or it is a life, limb, eyesight issue then it is not that damn important regardless of who is it coming from.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Feb 4 at 2015 9:56 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Wed, 04 Feb 2015 09:56:35 -0500

The simple answer is there is always something to do. Always. Whether it is gear maintenance, Motor Pool, Armory time, PT, PT Recovery Time, "Team Building Exercises," or whatever. There is always something that can be done.

It's just a matter of having a "training schedule" in addition to the "operational schedule."

Knowing what the schedule is, is the sign of a good administrator. Being a good administrator will help you be a good leader in the long run. The reason I say this is because it lets you "forecast." It also lets you "juggle" things around as needed. If you are always reacting, you are never acting.

So.

"Sir, we've got a Team Building exercise scheduled Thursday afternoon 1300 at the E-Club. Once it's over, I'm going to secure them until Friday morning PT. PT recovery time after that, followed by chow, and everyone back in the office at 1300 to check in, then we're going to take care of personal administration about the Base. We'll do a liberty brief at 1615, and secure for the weekend."

Now, putting that into English.

"We're going to the club, hanging out for an hour and going home. If you need us before that happens, call, but otherwise you've got a great excuse why we're not available. Friday morning, we're going to go run, and then screw off most of the morning. When we get back, the guys are going to be on base, but taking care of all the little things they normally can't during the week. We'll check in before we head out for the weekend though."

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2015 10:22 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Feb 2015 10:22:09 -0500

Soldiers will always have something to do. There is enough hip pocket training to be done. There is always some promotion or award board out there. There is enough professional development out there. If Soldiers are stagnant then they need to busy themselves before their first sergeant finds them something to get busy with.

We're called to be good stewards of the government's resources. We are well paid and receive benefits that are the envy of most people in America. To be idle while on the government's dime is stealing.

If nothing else, you can always do D and C.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Feb 4 at 2015 3:29 PM

CSM Michael J. Uhlig — Wed, 04 Feb 2015 15:29:35 -0500

My idea on keeping Soldiers in the AO..........first of all, I hate to waste Soldiers time and hate to waste training opportunities. Additionally, if you have time available, use it towards making the team better. You could be wasting a great opportunity to conduct training at the end of the day - whether that is an online form of training, rolling out the butcher block paper classes, or having a deep conversation with your Soldiers.....hard for me to believe every Soldier is finished with every on-line training class/course/certification as well as proficient in every aspect of their warrior tasks and drills. Often times, Soldiers are released early a time or two and then there is an expectation to be released early every day which leads to complacency at work.....still, can't help but think there are training opportunities that can be completed.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Feb 4 at 2015 3:48 PM

SGM Erik Marquez — Wed, 04 Feb 2015 15:48:50 -0500

The general rule was, if there is nothing to do, don't do it here.
PSG's had the authority to release SM's for other tasks, whether that was go sign up for a class, take the kid to lunch, or loan one or two out to the Motor Sergeant for help in the MP.>>
BUT with that went the unwritten rule... when there is work to be done, we will do it... end of the day is end of the task.. not an hour on the clock face. and don't you dare bitch about it. My company had many a 10:00, 12:30, 15:00 days when all were gone.. and a like or more amount that some or all stayed many hours after retreat to get the job done.

Same with hanging out till COB... Unless we know there was a reason to wait... leaders in a meeting deciding on what unit will support the range, rial head, or what time we needed to show for manifest, baggage tomorrow morning. ..something like that which had a short fuse on execution and was a no fail task...Other than that, If the commander and I were stuck in a meeting, PSG's sent the boys home..pfffffffffft, why hang out to be told, see you in the morning for PT.
If it was truly important, thats what the alert roster was for.
In all the years i did the job, I can count on one hand the number of times that policy bit me in the ass.

Response by SGM Billy Herrington made Feb 15 at 2015 10:14 PM

SGM Billy Herrington — Sun, 15 Feb 2015 22:14:03 -0500

It depends. On a Friday, I will walk into the instructors dungeon and ask why they are there if out of cycle.

As long as all tasks are done and nothing is pressing I'll cut them out. However that comes with a caveat. When it's time to stay late I don't want to hear any bitching.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2015 10:15 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Feb 2015 22:15:22 -0500

My heart burn isn't actually 'working' till 1730-1800. It's in being done with that day's business and other things needing caught up and 'sitting' around till 1830-1900. If we're done with the day's business by 1700, I say turn the Soldiers loose with the stipulation that they're not to stray off post, drink, get out of uniform until further notice. As a leader, I can more than likely use that hour from 1700 to 1800 to get some work done without having to take it home.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2015 10:18 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Feb 2015 22:18:23 -0500

It depends on the duty. Obviously the TOC and certain duties require 24 hour coverage. Just because nobody has come in to visit the full time staff in 30 minutes, doesn't mean that people should just pack up and leave. There are days that our full timers (and mob staff) get paid to goof off, but that something could come in. If there is ZERO activity expected, we may go down to minimum staffing....but there are times, and duties, that are not able to leave. One thing that can happen, is our Soldiers should cover down. You just sitting around screwing off? Why not check in on SSG Training or SFC Det NCO.....see if they have someone needing help. Some jobs finish early, while others have a constant heavy workload.

When I was the Asst OIC, I routinely was there at 0600 and usually was there until 1800. I had some days it was 0600 to 2100, even though the rest of my troops left. I had to prep for briefings, help with other details. Our WTU Coordinators (SGT and SFC) both stayed long hours as well, communicating with receiving facilities.

If you just completed a surge or something requiring extra hours, I don't mind occasionally comp time for part of that.....but if it's slow on a regular basis, you are still being paid under the assumption that the trickle of business could come in and they need someone there.

Additionally, future staffing needs are based on your DMHRSI timecards...so if you are flexed off, it may create a future question as to whether your job is needed. Which means they may cut your job, so when people DO need help, it creates an overburdened environment when the workload IS there.
v/r,
CPT Butler

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2015 10:24 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Feb 2015 22:24:35 -0500

Simple answer "NO". But we do need a duty day for other reasons. Generally 0630-0730 for PT 0900 to 1600 or 1630. Now we have 1SG, PLT SGT, SQD LDRS etc, so you manage your people within guidance and CDR's intent. Yes you may work 40 hours this week but then next year you may work 200 days straight 12 hours a day while deployed. If I cut you lose early because the mission is complete for today I think that is Ok considering there will be days when you work until 2100 or later. I am also a firm believer it giving Soldiers the day off for their birthday and encouraging them to attend family events etc. The old motto still rings true. Mission first and People always. We will work hard when we need to, we will be efficient always, we will never let the mission fail and we can be our best without running ourselves into the ground in the process

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Feb 15 at 2015 11:21 PM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Sun, 15 Feb 2015 23:21:12 -0500

If there is no reason for the Soldiers to be there at work, then in many scenarios I think they should probably be released for the day if the duty day is over with. I would caution that sometimes last minute things can come down, or sometimes the unit itself is unclear on whether all tasks are technically considered complete by higher. It can get a bit complicated. I would also add that these periods of time make for perfect hip pocket training -- and the best NCOs out there always seem to have useful things on hand to train on at a moment's notice.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2015 12:03 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Feb 2015 00:03:45 -0500

I've seen some good opinions posted here. Hiwever, they all seem to be coming from the FORCECOM side of tie house. Letting your guys go early once in a while is a good thing, especially when they've just busted their asses for you in a particularly tough day or week.

My opinion is a little more unique being in a TRADOC support company. The lions share of the resources rightly goes to FORCECOM first. My company isn't MTOE'd weapons, so running my guys through gun drills isn't an option. Butcher block training will only get you so far if you don't have the equipment to train on. Pretty much all we have is the Bushmasters in our M2A3s to train on, and we do our utmost to be proficient at that, but yet again you can only do that so much without running your guys down to a nub. So in my case, if I can let them go early, I will. I will stay around in case something comes up. That's what cellular technology is for.

Response by CW3 Eddy Vleugels made Feb 16 at 2015 10:24 AM

CW3 Eddy Vleugels — Mon, 16 Feb 2015 10:24:45 -0500

In my opinion there should never be a time when your soldiers have nothing to do. What is your definition of Operational requirements? To me, there is always something that can be done. I'm totally against early release as a common occurrence; there are plenty of things that can be accomplished if a SM finds themselves with "nothing" to do. This is where good and bad leadership make a difference: a good leader will train his troops so they understand that there is always something to do...helping others...training...administrative functions...cleaning...more training...learning...studying...fixing...replacing...I could go on and on.
I do believe in giving passes and allowing person AL time...but not early dismissal just because you don't have proper guidance on how to effectively manage and use your time.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2015 6:19 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Feb 2015 18:19:27 -0500

It has always been my belief that Leaders should release Soldiers when the mission for the day is accomplished.

Of course as Leaders we must let Soldiers know what the "Goal" of the day is. Once it is reached then release them, as long as it is not super early like lunch time.

Having Soldiers standing around waiting for COB is counter productive. Without an obtainable goal Soldiers will not work at peak performance because they do not know what they are trying to accomplish.

The Philosophy I live by is that it will all balance out in the end as there will be times when I am unable to let Soldiers go early. Mission requirements above my level will have us working unusual hours in some instances.

Bottom line, let them go early when possible. NCO's / Leaders should stay for informational purposes to brief Soldiers telephonically if necessary.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2016 7:34 AM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 May 2016 07:34:01 -0400

At one point in my career our unit had to work midnight to 0800 because of security concerns with a contract. The contractor got paid OT and we didn't so we won the midnight shift.

One of our NCOs worked all day doing one of his extra duties and then was working the midnight shift also. I told him to go home early and my CO was upset. My CO and I had a discussion and I stated that I would do the same if the same situation occurred.

I am not sure if he agreed, but, I did it again the next time the "extra" duty caused a conflict.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made May 2 at 2016 10:39 AM

MCPO Roger Collins — Mon, 02 May 2016 10:39:48 -0400

"Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do and die."