He saved 80 lives, Why not the MOH, Air Force?

2015-12-18T06:57:15-05:00

From Air Force Times:

The Air Force is the only service that does not have a Medal of Honor in the Global War on Terror, and with another airman's heroic action in battle resulting in an Air Force Cross, experts are again asking: What does an airman have to do?

http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2015/05/11/he-saved-80-lives-why-not-the-medal-of-honor/26993663/

Sent from my iPhone

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 18 at 2015 7:35 AM

2015-12-18T07:35:28-05:00

I think there is a general bias against Air Force ...

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Dec 18 at 2015 7:36 AM

2015-12-18T07:36:25-05:00

Unfortunately this is a Subjective, and not Objective process. As well it should be.

There are no checks in the box to determine whether someone will receive the Star, the Cross, or the MOH.

We have seen our Heroes commit much the same acts and be recognized differently, such "jumping on grenades." (the most cited action for recognition of the MOH). We have gone back in time to WWI and revisited past exploits and realized that the process, and the "standards" are flawed. There are those who should have been granted greater recognition.

However, we also run a fine line.

When extraordinary becomes commonplace, the "standard" evolves. Our MOH recipients are Men of Legend. I can think of no other parallel to describe them. Their citations read like things from Greek Mythology, but in Modern times, where Reality is far stranger than Fiction. As well it should be.

As for the Air Force and their stringent view, I can see both sides, however without having full access to supporting documentation, it's hard to make a call. Depending on the level of training, skill, etc, the Subjective standard changes dramatically. What is extraordinary for one, is not as special for another.

Response by Sgt Spencer Sikder made Dec 18 at 2015 8:41 AM

2015-12-18T08:41:27-05:00

Now they did it! Got my blood pressure up this early in the morning! WTF???

Response by SFC Pete Kain made Dec 18 at 2015 8:47 AM

2015-12-18T08:47:53-05:00

Seven of the Eight awarded to Air Force members since the Korean War were to pilots. Just saying

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 18 at 2015 9:24 AM

2015-12-18T09:24:52-05:00

The same thing could be asked why it took them so long to upgrade Pitsenbarger's AF Cross (Awarded in 1966) to the MOH (upgraded in 2000).

Response by Lt Col Stephen Petzold made Dec 18 at 2015 9:53 AM

2015-12-18T09:53:56-05:00

Someone needs to ask this to the Chief of Staff of the Air Force. Leadership needs to give it a push if they want to make it happen. They did not say where or at what level the award board was at. The ones in theater can be lower level and overworked. Maybe it needs a second review.

Response by SSgt Donnavon Smith made Dec 18 at 2015 10:46 AM

2015-12-18T10:46:07-05:00

Maybe he does not have his CCAF?

Response by SGT Larry Prentice made Dec 18 at 2015 11:36 AM

2015-12-18T11:36:38-05:00

Maybe the Air force expects more out of their people than the other branches? Maybe they like giving it to the pilots to get the recognition? Maybe the Air Force doesn't see a need for a "ground" Airman to get involved when the "pilots" should be? Who knows why they do what they do? I think he deserves the MOH and so does then-Staff Sgt. Robert Gutierrez for his actions!! What can you do about it? How can we correct it? I don't have the answers but I can see clearly that the Air Force was wrong at least twice!!!

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Dec 18 at 2015 1:09 PM

2015-12-18T13:09:45-05:00

Not trying to be a grinch, but I think it's worth keeping this in context, because I get the impression that the Air Force Times article is driven by an "Us, too!" agenda focused more on the idea that there should be an Air Force Medal of Honor awarded than on how courageous Senior Airman Temple's actions were.

For starters, after a little digging to get a narrative of the firefight, I couldn't help noticing that an Army SF staff sergeant, Hollis R. Webb, is mentioned as assisting Senior Airman Temple in the actions for which Temple was awarded the Air Force Cross -- dragging a mortally wounded soldier to cover, and retrieving ammunition and other supplies delivered by a helicopter whose crew (presumably) braved the same intensity of fire as the guys on the ground.
https://www.sofmag.com/48-hour-deadly-firefight-in-afghanistan/

According to this page, which mentions his 2014 deployment, Hollis has been awarded "two Bronze stars for valor in combat." Is anybody clamoring for SSG Webb to be awarded a Medal of Honor?
http://www.holidaysforheroes.com/people/hollis-r-webb/

48 HOUR DEADLY FIREFIGHT IN AFGHANISTAN

GUTSY AIR FORCE COMBAT CONTROLLERS SAVE THE DAY By Lt. Col. Robert K. Brown From the August 2015 issue of SOF NIGHT CHOPPER INSERTION IGNITES LIFE AND DEATH BATTLE On the night of 27 September 2014…

Response by MSgt John Carroll made Dec 18 at 2015 6:35 PM

2015-12-18T18:35:58-05:00

I am really not surprised. I'll leave it at that. This reply was a lot longer but sometimes the delete button is a good thing.

Response by Cpl Mark McMiller made Dec 19 at 2015 5:43 AM

2015-12-19T05:43:44-05:00

What is "airmanship" and how do you superbly do it? =)

Response by 1stSgt Michael Gartland made Dec 19 at 2015 7:47 AM

2015-12-19T07:47:48-05:00

It seems that Air Force leadership will need to see video of the heroic action. Sadly, it has become a culture of FMV.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 20 at 2015 4:52 AM

2015-12-20T04:52:53-05:00

Interesting how the Air Force has what many think are to many frivolous awards but they are being stingy on the MOH. I agree SFC A.M. Drake "What the hell Air Force"!

Response by CPO Jon Campbell made Dec 21 at 2015 8:16 PM

2015-12-21T20:16:56-05:00

The Coast Guard only has one MOH recipient - Douglas Monroe. He saved the lives of 400 Marines at the Battle of Guadalcanal and was recommended by Chesty Puller. Talk about setting the bar high! Oh, and the medal was awarded posthumously.

Response by CWO4 Michael Harding made Dec 22 at 2015 12:15 AM

2015-12-22T00:15:38-05:00

http://www.uscg.mil/history/articles/Munro.asp

Douglas Munro, USCG, at Guadalcanal

The Coast Guard's first major participation in the Pacific war was at Guadalcanal. Here the service played a large part in the landings on the islands. So critical was their task that they were later involved in every major amphibious campaign during World War II. During the war, the Coast Guard manned over 350 ships and hundreds more amphibious type assault craft. It was in these ships and craft that the Coast Guard fulfilled one of its most...

Response by TSgt Marco McDowell made Dec 22 at 2015 12:16 AM

2015-12-22T00:16:40-05:00

Pretty long list of airmen who have gone above and beyond. It's not a competition but recognition of the individuals who've done that, but perceptions and biases do get in the way of decorating people. It's not only the Medal of Honor that are dealt with this way but many citations and awards. A guy can get STEP promoted and decorated for wrestling a enemy to the ground to save civilians, yet a guy performs in combat and saves brother-in-arms and gets shrug. Too often it takes an outside community to stump for recognition or to investigate. It shouldn't be that way. A person shouldn't have to be dead for 30 years or discharged for 5 to get what they deserve due to their service and actions.

Response by SPC Raul Santiago made Dec 22 at 2015 2:10 AM

2015-12-22T02:10:05-05:00

Now that is in the open I smell change a coming. Air force is known for promoting people and ez living. I think that checks and balances should be done all kidding aside they do have some hardcore people but not fare to take a back seat to the flyboys.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2015 3:37 PM

2015-12-22T15:37:07-05:00

Maybe the Commander is a douche and was jealous so he gave him an Air Force cross, but what do I know.

Response by MSgt Victor Moss made Dec 23 at 2015 12:18 AM

2015-12-23T00:18:26-05:00

Keep in mind that it only took the Air Force 34 years to recognize the heroism of a PJ named William H. Pitsenbarger, and he was busy saving the lives of pilots when he was killed. The enlisted force never gets the recognition we deserve because it's not as sexy as flying the jets. But they do give us great chow halls, (er, Dining Facilities).

Response by MSgt Richey Leamer made Dec 23 at 2015 10:13 AM

2015-12-23T10:13:09-05:00

Is this "really" a surprise? All of the comments below tell the real story with more truth than any "official " statement will..

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 23 at 2015 1:49 PM

2015-12-23T13:49:38-05:00

jeez, did he get a 'certificate of achievement'??? I mean really? 'Oh he saved 80 airmen? that's nice. Hey, this guy got a a paper cut, let's at least give him the silver star..' come on guys, if he cannot the the CMOH for saving 80...I don't know what else to say. Total shame really.

Response by MSgt William Morris made Dec 23 at 2015 3:47 PM

2015-12-23T15:47:46-05:00

One of the things I learned in my career is that medals are not awarded by merit, they are awarded to people who have the best writers working behind the scenes to make it happen. You can have 3 people do the exact same thing, but if one of them has a writer who can make it sound like you saved the entire world through your actions, you have a better chance at getting it approved. If the man in the article had the right people behind him, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Response by MSG Loren Tomblin made Dec 23 at 2015 4:50 PM

2015-12-23T16:50:16-05:00

If he did that he deserves an MOH. I was involved in the hostage thing in Iran back in the day. I received the Legion of Merit but never knew about it until 2015. Some lazy arse personnel clerk probably just shredded the citation.

Response by MSgt Donald Biddle made Dec 24 at 2015 12:03 AM

2015-12-24T00:03:19-05:00

WTF Air Force!!!
"Airman Temple has reflected the highest credit upon himself and the United States Air Force."
Highest?? Second highest...highest would be awarding him the MOH!!

Temple, Robert Gutierrez, John Chapman and Jason Cunningham all should be awarded the MOH!
I realize what they accomplished are part of their duties however, I truly believe the actions were one of "personal bravery or self-sacrifice so conspicuous as to clearly distinguish the service member above his or her comrades and must have involved risk of life."

No offense to John Levitow or William Pitsenbarger but their MOH actions saved an AC-47 crew (guessing four) and nine people, respectively, while Temple saved 80 members!!

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 24 at 2015 2:16 AM

2015-12-24T02:16:11-05:00

Make sure that his leadership is on his Honor Guard team when he dies. That way, they can let him down one last time.

Response by SSG Bob Madigan made Dec 24 at 2015 8:24 AM

2015-12-24T08:24:42-05:00

While, in my opinion, this brass plated steel balled badass mutha should have gotten the MOH the fact is that Hollywood and political hacks in D.C. have cheapened other medals. The AF Cross, DSC, Silver and Bronze Stars are all worthy of respect and admiration. When every movie hero has a MOH and politicians go back 100 years to award the MOH because of some perceived injustice or blatent political pandering Warfighters and the general public have the notion that anything less is a participation trophy. That is an extreme injustice to all of the no shit gutsy bastards that have earned all of the other medals for bravery and heroism. JMO.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 24 at 2015 2:30 PM

2015-12-24T14:30:08-05:00

You have to understand. The Air Force is run by pilots. Most of the senior leadership have always been pilots.

I remember when I was at Maxwell AFB attending Squadron Officer's school. A young Lt (pilot) stood up in the auditorium one day and told all of us, "If you aren't a pilot you aren't shit." That pretty well summed it up for us non-rated officers.

Response by MCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 24 at 2015 7:37 PM

2015-12-24T19:37:49-05:00

And the Air Force Times is so wrong, they should spell it, "rong".

The Coast guard has zero Medals of Honor since WWII... hell, we have only had one member awarded one in the history of our service - and we've been involved in every conflict since 1789.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 25 at 2015 12:43 AM

2015-12-25T00:43:28-05:00

In order to get the MOH as a Air Force enlisted, you must save an aircraft, aircrew, or a shot down pilot. You can get an Air Force cross for saving everything else

Response by SPC Roland Flynn made Dec 25 at 2015 12:45 AM

2015-12-25T00:45:25-05:00

Maybe if he was an officer/ pilot?

Response by CAPT Phillip B. made Dec 25 at 2015 9:42 AM

2015-12-25T09:42:54-05:00

Without knowing the whole story, its hard to say objectively if this man's actions fully met the criteria for a MOH. HOWEVER - I have to say that when I was in the Air Force it always seemed that image-wise the USAF is all about glorification of the pilot while ignoring the other 90% of the force - not all of whom are wrench-turners or logistics types (folks who don't normally endure incoming rounds such as combat controllers etc.). Since most folks will admit that the MOH is about image projection and politics, the fact that pilots are the ones who get them tells you a lot about what the senior leadership wants to project as its image. Brave airborne warriors taking death to the enemy...anything else muddles the image of the force and affects recruiting, confuses the electorate (who need a clear, uncomplicated image of what a vote for Air Force budget spending supports etc.). With regard to the commenter who noted that finance folks got Bronze Stars....yeah, that was happening left-and-right with the Army in Afghanistan. You'd see E-6 base-dwellers (no time outside the wire) getting Bronze Stars - bizarre. Navy stayed the course and did MSM's for support staff, Bronze Stars for combat-related valor - as a result take a look at the number of Bronze Stars awarded by service...Army blew the doors off everyone else. It would be nice if the DoD took the reins of overall rules for awards that deal with valor in battle. Non-combat awards are fine for the individual service to manage - but for anything at the top of the hierarchy - DoD should set hard rules on that. It would help with the MOH as a benefit.

Response by Sgt Brett Shaul made Dec 26 at 2015 1:02 AM

2015-12-26T01:02:58-05:00

$125k to fly a drone, maybe they don't want to draw attention to themselves any more? If they deserve the MOH then it should be awarded thru the proper procedures.

Response by TSgt David Johnson made Dec 26 at 2015 2:19 AM

2015-12-26T02:19:30-05:00

It was always difficult to separate individual accomplishments. Unless you were air crew.

Response by MSgt Stuart Fowler made Dec 26 at 2015 1:50 PM

2015-12-26T13:50:26-05:00

Not a pilot....they don't like you raiding their goody jar

Response by MSgt Richard Parke made Dec 27 at 2015 12:26 PM

2015-12-27T12:26:20-05:00

Maybe he's not a big enough supporter of the unit booster club

Response by SMSgt Charles Watkins made Dec 28 at 2015 9:20 PM

2015-12-28T21:20:59-05:00

Oh this is about as easy as it gets...he's enlisted! Read the Air Force Cross citation for Capt Paul T Johnson in DESERT STORM; then, compare it to the actions mentioned. Also, look at MSgt Timothy Wilkinson's action in Somalia. I bet the Rangers he risked his life for would have voted for the MOH. i too do not know the full story, but our Air Force is a service of for and by officers, because we send them into battle. This is not a quote from me, it is from a retired CMSgt. Guess what, we send our enlisted in harm's way as well.

Response by MSgt John Taylor made Dec 29 at 2015 1:16 PM

2015-12-29T13:16:21-05:00

He needs to be non-enlisted & non-aviator

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2015 8:29 PM

2015-12-29T20:29:37-05:00

Air what..

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2015 9:26 PM

2015-12-29T21:26:04-05:00

yeah I agree. There are a couple combat airmen of the current wars that should have had MOH. Its a great article.

Response by TSgt John Logan made Dec 29 at 2015 10:15 PM

2015-12-29T22:15:13-05:00

Because no one in his chain has an MOH, and by God this Airman won't get one before they do, besides his rank isn't high enough to warrant a MOH (according to the military political base)

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2015 4:59 AM

2015-12-30T04:59:29-05:00

He is not a pilot....