Have you had to give a senior NCO a mediocre NCOER?

Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Jul 2024 15:03:40 -0400

As a senior rater I rate quite a few NCOs and a few Senior NCOs. I recently gave my senior rater comments to a senior NCO that was surprised he was rated poorly. I am surprised that he is shocked by this. Nonetheless, you really can't fight senior rater comments due to them being based on potential. Have any of you dealt with this. To me this NCO struggles to do the right thing but thinks they are top block material.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 3 at 2024 3:47 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 03 Jul 2024 15:47:46 -0400

I mean, if the rated SNCO never received counseling sessions talking about their issues....I could see why they would be surprised.

Does your comments jive with what the Rater wrote?

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Jul 3 at 2024 8:06 PM

CAPT Kevin B. — Wed, 03 Jul 2024 20:06:16 -0400

I was an O-4 at the time and counseled an E-8 several times about getting off his butt and doing the job. When I drafted up his Eval, the Skipper said he'd go with it. Problem was when the E-8 got it, he went into everybody is picking on me mode and got the Skipper to upgrade it. Some uplines became aware of it and the E-8 didn't have a billet and was short cycled out. The Skipper was told he didn't have a billet either so he put his papers in. I just kept chugging along. Found out later the uplines were well aware of the people involved. Another reminder to me to pay attention to what's going on upline and downline.

Response by MAJ Dale E. Wilson, Ph.D. made Jul 3 at 2024 9:08 PM

MAJ Dale E. Wilson, Ph.D. — Wed, 03 Jul 2024 21:08:36 -0400

One of my favorites was: This sergeant is destined to go through his career pulling on doors marked "Push" . . .

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 4 at 2024 10:23 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Jul 2024 10:23:40 -0400

I realize they always act surprised, every time, but I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't ask;
During the rating period, did you have at least two counseling sessions with support form (per AR 623-3) or even just discussions with this senior NCO where you were frank and forthcoming about their potential, perhaps even with some guidance and mentorship that didn't stick?

To answer the posted question, on several occasions, I have had to give NCOs mediocre or worse NCOERs, all of those were backed up with multiple rater counselings and very frequent guidance and mentorship throughout the rated period, and they did still act surprised at the end. Sometimes the lower performing suffer from the lowest self awareness.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jul 4 at 2024 11:21 AM

SGM Bill Frazer — Thu, 04 Jul 2024 11:21:48 -0400

Yes, and even had to arrange thru the commander to relieve and send folk's home.

Response by CSM Chuck Stafford made Jul 17 at 2024 8:46 AM

CSM Chuck Stafford — Wed, 17 Jul 2024 08:46:17 -0400

Never gave a mediocre NCOER -- I have written NCOERs that NCOs have earned; just be sure to have the receipts/counselings

Response by LTC David Howard made Oct 17 at 2024 6:02 PM

LTC David Howard — Thu, 17 Oct 2024 18:02:31 -0400

Toward the end of my military career I had the unfortunate experience of having assigned to me more than one marginal (at best) senior NCO who apparently were "affirmative action promotions". In both cases I gave very weak evaluations which probably prevented the E-8 from being promoted to E-9 and an E-9 from being selected as a Command Sergeant Major. I didn't feel the slightest guilt in being honest.

Response by CSM Jerry Weldon made Oct 17 at 2024 7:29 PM

CSM Jerry Weldon — Thu, 17 Oct 2024 19:29:19 -0400

3 counseling statements, discussion, not finger pointing, signature by both parties. #3 and no correction by NCO, problem on NCO, not supervisor. You will have IG support.

Response by SFC Patrick Tipton made Oct 17 at 2024 8:46 PM

SFC Patrick Tipton — Thu, 17 Oct 2024 20:46:39 -0400

Not a SNCO, but with a SSG that thought he was secondary zone SFC material. Not on my watch. The NCOER was actually a COR and I gave him what he deserved. Bullets that eloquently explained spending the better portion of the rating period on profile. Not having done an APFT in over a year. Working from home on occasion while on lengthy medical and convalescent leave or PTDY. You name it this shirked it and still thought he was the most high speed Soldier on crutches. Being in operations we had numerous SNCOs there so he arranged (and admittedly I was about to go on my own retirement leave anyway) to have another SFC aka one of his buddies write a shiny, well polished NCOER fit for an NCO that actually came to work everyday. Sometimes the 1SG and CDR don't want it to seem like they've got substandard NCOs in the company either. So yeah, write the counselings whenever appropriate at the very least detailing how well the NCO or SNCO is hohumming along at the beat of their own drum.

Response by CPT Daniel Rodriguez made Oct 17 at 2024 11:30 PM

CPT Daniel Rodriguez — Thu, 17 Oct 2024 23:30:23 -0400

Any rating of needs improvement or unsatisfactory must not be a surprise and have counseling statements or evidence to show why such a rating was given. On the other hand, an exceeds expectations and standards must have quantifiable evidence to justify such rating.

Response by PO3 Ted G made Oct 18 at 2024 8:37 AM

PO3 Ted G — Fri, 18 Oct 2024 08:37:30 -0400

When I was waiting to get out I was put to work in an Auto Hobby Shop and somehow I ended up, as an E3 that was transitioning to E4, "in charge". More like I knew what needed to be done when, and who was better at what jobs and didn't mind doing them. Somehow we got an E6 who decided he was going to be the supervisor against the advice of the E5 who ran the adjacent Wood Shop and I technically reported to. After two weeks, I had the task, along with the civilian GS staff, of having to tell this E6 that the staff and myself were embarrassed at the condition of the facility, tired of his attitude, no one liked him because he was assigning tasks to people that were either not physically able, or lacked the skills to perform, we were also not really fond of his decision to not hold everyone an extra hour at the end of the work week so that we could properly degrease the floor. We were all short timers, but he had a major case of short timer attitude and it was ruining the shop. I think the part that really hit home for him was that the staff wanted to do more work than he was assigning and told him that they would rather work someplace else than witness an accident that he caused by his neglect. Two weeks later he was handing out basketballs and someone from the gym was asking us how to fix him. Some people have to be told early and often that they need to figure out how to be leaders, gentle reminders that keeping the machine running by keeping the people in roles suited to their aptitude can really help with their attitude don't hurt either.