Has anyone else been demoted for standing up for or taking care of your troops either in the rear or out in the field

SSG Warren Hall — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 00:01:35 -0400

I was demoted (Article 15) for taking care of my troops while in a field exercise. We had been out in the field for right at three days, our water ran out the afternoon of the third day. Upon calling for a drop I was told that we were to locate the cache left for my squad. After going to the coordinates given for the cache turned up no water, I once again called for a drop. I was told that I must be at the wrong location. After rechecking our coordinates (Myself as well as my Team leaders and some of the enlisted with high marks in land nav) we confirmed that we were at the right place. We were going into the evening of the 4th day at this point and a couple of guys needing IVs for dehydration. I made a judgement call, and took my squad back to FOB. When remanded for doing so, and finding out that higher had forgotten to drop supplies at our cache point, I lost my composure, and told my 1st Sgt, and CO that REAL leaders would not have forgotten something as vital water and supplies. When told to "At Ease SSgt" I, in so may words told them where they could put it. I was a Sgt two days later which pissed me off, and once again put my foot in my mouth and went down to a SPC not too long after that. Looking back, I know there was around 2 million ways I could have handled the situation better.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2015 12:33 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 00:33:16 -0400

wow sorry to hear that

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2015 2:54 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 02:54:02 -0400

For what it's worth I think you did the right thing heading back to the FOB. Your Chain of Command failed you badly that day. As for the rest of it, I don't know that there's anything to discuss. We all have things we would've liked to do differently after the fact. I would hold your head high knowing that you did the right thing and potentially saved some of your troops lives that day.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Apr 21 at 2015 7:24 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 07:24:08 -0400

Sure you could have handled it different, but so could they.

When a "troop" (in this case you) is at a breaking point, you need to get him out of the situation that is causing him to break. The 1SG should have extradited you immediately

"SSG, Let's go for a walk NOW. Sir, we'll be right back. I think I heard a Badger or some other woodland type creature digging in our trash and I need the SSG to help me chase it off."

Something absolutely "absurd" so that the CO knows he is getting you out of there before you say something you'll regret. While he's got you "away" you can vent.

But...

You weren't busted for taking care of your guys. You were busted for losing your bearing AFTER taking care of your guys... in the wrong company.

Response by SSG Darius Montgomery made Apr 21 at 2015 7:49 AM

SSG Darius Montgomery — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 07:49:22 -0400

No, you handled that the right way. Sometimes, leaders sit in a office and get big headed. "A True Leader", never forgets something that vital. In the case that they do, show remorse and accept that a subordinate may curse your ass out! All leaders need a reality check from time to time.

Response by SFC Phillip Wiley made Apr 21 at 2015 7:53 AM

SFC Phillip Wiley — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 07:53:46 -0400

It is this kind of stuff that makes me so happy I removed myself from the monkey goat roping circus.

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Apr 21 at 2015 7:57 AM

1LT William Clardy — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 07:57:29 -0400

SSG Warren Hall, I think you should take a serious look in the mirror and ask yourself how much of your disciplinary experience was due to an operator headspace and timing issue -- one which may never have been really corrected, judging by the "Your head up your ass, you must have" graphic you chose to headline this question.

You seem to think that you were busted for "taking care of your troops", but you openly admit to committing two unignorable breaches of military courtesy in the space of as many days. You should ask yourself a few questions:

1) If one of your privates castigated your competence as a leader the same way you did your first sergeant and company commander, would you have disciplined that troop? Why or why not?

2) If you walked into a room and witnessed another squad leader berating a private with the same tone and language you directed at your company commander, what would be your gut-level reaction to that sergeant's conduct (as an NCO)?

3) How much of your criticism of your chain of command was intended to be constructive? How much was, in all honesty, just lashing out in anger and frustration?

4) Lastly (and of least iimportance), did you really have no alternative sources of water? Were there no streams or wells you could have used boiled or treated water from?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2015 7:57 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 07:57:33 -0400

Reading your story, it does not sound like you were demoted for taking care of your troops. You were demoted for disrespect, and lack of discipline.

I agree with your decision to have went back to the FOB for water, good initiative on that choice. There will always be times when we get verbally reprimanded throughout our career and most of the time you just have to take it with a grain of salt so to say.

Response by CMSgt Mark Schubert made Apr 21 at 2015 8:44 AM

CMSgt Mark Schubert — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 08:44:14 -0400

It appears that the title of this thread is misleading - you didn't get demoted for taking care of your troops - you got demoted for losing your bearing. It sounds as if you did the right thing in fact. Thank you for taking care of your troops - just learn to "keep calm and carry on" and you will have a bright career! The military needs leaders like you who can make a decision like the one you made in the field.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2015 9:48 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 09:48:48 -0400

Did you try to expunge this charge from your record in retrospect? I'd say, why not give it a try even this late. After all, your chain of command let you down in the first place. Not that you had any right to bad mouth them, but I see your outrage with this situation

Response by SGT John Wesley made Apr 21 at 2015 11:53 AM

SGT John Wesley — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 11:53:05 -0400

I would have returned too. Here's the rub, they outrank you, they can screw the pooch royally and all you can hope for is that their higher ups call them on it. You flipping your lid did not hurt them, only you.

Glad you took care of your troops!!

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 21 at 2015 12:02 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 12:02:08 -0400

I probably would have let it go cause you were right, soldiers safety was being compromised, and the coordinates were wrong. However I would have also demanded a stand down and sleep on it. The following day I would have your platoon leadership and you in my office to show you how you were right, but went about it the right way, and thank you for taking care of the troops.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2015 12:55 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 12:55:30 -0400

Hi, Corporal Hall. I regret having to use your new rank, because what you did personifies the non-commissioned officer. I think you did the right thing. I think taking your team back to the FOB was the proper course of action. I would be hard-pressed to categorize any loss of bearing as appropriate, but am equally hard-pressed to call you out for it. You know how your leadership feels about it. Now ask the guys you brought back what they think.

A true leader is the servant of his subordinates. Well done, Corporal.

Response by PO2 John King made Apr 21 at 2015 1:05 PM

PO2 John King — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 13:05:21 -0400

Just look on the internet news or in the news for that matter, Thousands are either being kicked out of the military or being forced to retire, because of the current administration, so you were not the first and you will not be the last. Think that is scary. Look up Operation Jade Helm to see whats scary, not to mention that federal law prohibits local enforcement from training with the United States Military, now that's scary.

Response by MSgt Dwyane Watson made Apr 21 at 2015 3:04 PM

MSgt Dwyane Watson — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 15:04:14 -0400

You can look at yourself in the mirror every morning knowing that you did the right thing, but can those dillweeds who forgot to make the drop? You earned the respect of your troops while the 1st Sgt and CO lost respect. I would rather be respected by my guys than kiss someones behind, that's why I never made E-8; but I can tell you this, I have no problem when I get up every morning when I look in the mirror.

Response by CDR Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2015 3:38 PM

CDR Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 15:38:51 -0400

It's one thing to take care of your troops. And you were completely right about failure of leadership to drop the supplies your people needed. You got your people back where they could be taken care of. The right thing to do and your leadership can be very thankful that no one died. Once back and safe, it was on you to discuss the situation with the 1st Sgt, and it even would have been OK to be angry with him/her. But, you crossed a big line when you used inappropriate language with your CO and 1st Sgt, even after being warned to stand down. And then you did it again? Hard for anyone to defend that aspect. Yes, you definitely could have handled things better.

Response by SSG Brian Kresge made Apr 21 at 2015 3:40 PM

SSG Brian Kresge — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 15:40:35 -0400

It's a reality that our need to take care of our subordinates and commander's intent can sometimes end up at cross purposes.

You've already commented on other responses that you could have handled the insubordination end differently, so I won't flog the dead horse. But I wonder if that was as much the issue, as it was the questioning of their share in your concern for your soldiers?

Unless your CO and 1SG were known to sit on their hands, was it reasonable to assume that the neglecting of water resupply was an act of malfeasance on their part? Even as dire as the circumstances were for your soldiers, we know resupply can be a big issue at every level - things get missed, balls get dropped, etc., especially during the forays to the big national training centers, which I'm assuming is the setting for this affair? This is the big OER / NCOER bullet point generator, right? Priorities get stacked, and things go whack.

I wonder how much consequence there would have been if you merely had justified what you did, and took your troops back to the fight as soon as you conducted your water resupply. Indulging the sense of "us vs. them" with regards to higher could have been where you fell short, as opposed to the insubordination.

G-d bless you for your service - I hope retirement and the VA are treating you well...an incident like this can follow you, hope it's doesn't embitter your memories of your patriotic service!

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Apr 21 at 2015 3:44 PM

CAPT Kevin B. — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 15:44:10 -0400

A slight variation but I was canned from my GS job for doing the right thing. Problem was the right people didn't recognize it was right for several years. A call from a Vice Admiral with specific instructions to settle an issue with EPA locally without telling his own SESers left me holding the bag. The mistake on my side was in counting on the DC types to hold firm on an agreement that cost some initial money but the end point was clearly defined. And EPA had to listen to NOOSA and DDESB on munitions safety. EPA hates defined end points and anything less than 100% rock management control and continually reinitiated disputes. The Agency is in many respects a poster child for bad Government that costs taxpayers and industry needless money. Don't get me going on USFWS either.

Since people come and go, to some I'm remembered as the guy who screwed up big time and to a smaller set, the guy who did the right thing.

A couple of things I learned about the experience. Short term you learn you're more sensitive to PTSD stressors than you were before the "big one". Long term you realize you have to live with yourself and you have to decide what you'll do or be right now because tomorrow, that's what you'll be.

Response by MSG David Chappell made Apr 21 at 2015 3:44 PM

MSG David Chappell — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 15:44:37 -0400

I remember the third time I was at Pfc. Taking care of troops is what we are about in the NCO Corps. However tact professionalism and candor are necessary skills especially as a staff sergeant. I was a master sergeant at Fort Riley and had several of my troops do some really dumb things they had to go see the operations and CEO and I as their senior leader went with them. I have them stand behind me and I stood in front of them and in front of the desk the Master sergeant explained what had gone wrong I had explained to him that I would take full responsibility as well as the Reponen for the actions of my troops. He dismissed us but asked me to stay. This was the second time I have been in his office for a silly action on one of my young soldiers. I had taken the butt chewing on the first occasion was expecting it again as this was his habits to have the lower listed leave the room so that only the two E8's were present. Much to my surprise he told me to sit and then took at your next me and offered me a cuppa coffee and we sat and talked about with the soldiers were doing and why turned out that I have gained his respect for standing up for my soldiers but doing it in a professional way I also had to show what actions I have taken to discipline the troops so as to not simply let them walk away with the hand slap. Taking care of soldiers is not just giving them time off nor is it simply a matter of ensuring their wearing the right uniform it's about getting them to the right range ensuring they qualify ensuring they're doing the proper paperwork and APFT scores.
Taking care of soldiers is also ensuring that you are as professional to your leadership as you expect your subordinates to be to you.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Apr 21 at 2015 11:29 PM

COL Charles Williams — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 23:29:06 -0400

SSG Warren Hall I am not meaning to pile on, but as others have noted, and based on what you provided, it sounds like you were demoted for disrespect and losing your cool.

Sometimes, you/we have to learn to keep you/our mouth shut, and say nothing, especially when you are fired up/emotional. Certain situations require you to say "Yes Sir, No Sir, Yes 1SG, no 1SG" etc... And, if it is important take it up a later time, in private, when everyone has settled down.

I was never demoted... but, I have lost my cool with bosses... Each time, I was flat wrong.

I learned over time, no good can come front confronting your superiors, especially in public. If it was important, I scheduled a time and date to discuss later.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Apr 22 at 2015 9:28 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 09:28:24 -0400

You weren't demoted for taking care of your people. You were being disrespectful and belligerent. Don't use the water thing to justify your subsequent behavior. Had you taken care of your people and left it at that, you'd have been fine.

Response by LTC Peter Hartman made May 13 at 2015 10:15 PM

LTC Peter Hartman — Wed, 13 May 2015 22:15:35 -0400

Yes.

And I am an LTC now.