Fraternization and the Reserves - Where is the line?

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 02 Jan 2015 20:00:33 -0500

This question may very well apply to Active Duty as well, as it leads to some larger ones of, "What actually constitutes fraternization / what is the intent?"

However, I address the larger issue to the Reserve components. When a Reserve Servicemember is only "on duty" one weekend a month, can you expect the same fraternization policies? More specifically, what if two people share a civilian work relationship, but also a military reservist one? Our TPU Soldiers call each other by first names, or "Mister", when not at Drill, often regardless of rank. That even includes one LTC, because during the week he is "Mister so-and-so the UA" not "LTC So-and-so." Thus, can he really be told he can't socialize with his coworkers because they, too, happen to be Reservists? Or, should there be more relaxed standards in the Reserves, so long as it doesn't disrupt order and discipline?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2015 8:06 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 02 Jan 2015 20:06:56 -0500

Post-script, I am referring primarily to fraternization of the "non-romantic" variety, despite the image.

I've never understood why the phrase for "to make a brother of" was applied to mean the romantic type. When I date a woman I most certainly don't want to "make a brother" out of her...

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Jan 2 at 2015 8:03 PM

Capt Richard I P. — Fri, 02 Jan 2015 20:03:36 -0500

Fraternization policies are intended to improve combat efficacy, they must be obeyed in view of their extreme and ultimate possible consequences. Could your relationship with an individual alter your choice to risk his or her life compared to a peer? Then that relationship is wrong.

When it comes to the National Guard I like to ask: "What would Captain Isaac Davis do?"

Hint: (Real Quote) "I have not a man that is afraid to go." Followed by his own death leading his company advancing on the bridge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Davis_(soldier)

Isaac Davis (soldier) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Isaac Davis (February 23, 1745 – April 19, 1775) was a gunsmith and a militia officer who commanded a company of Minutemen from Acton, Massachusetts, during the first battle of the American Revolutionary War. In the months leading up to the Revolution, Davis set unusually high standards for his company in terms of equipment, training, and preparedness. His company was selected to lead the advance on the British Regulars during the Battle of...

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Jan 2 at 2015 8:15 PM

CSM Michael J. Uhlig — Fri, 02 Jan 2015 20:15:39 -0500

As long as you maintain the good order and discipline, you get that with consistency.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Jan 2 at 2015 8:12 PM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Fri, 02 Jan 2015 20:12:38 -0500

Personal opinion follows: I feel that fraternization is a long held division based on the historical class difference between officers and enlisted. I honestly believe that fraternization should removed (no different than segregation or DADT) and leave the existing unprofessional relationship rules in place. The rules ideally should be equal across all service branches and all components.

Response by LTC Yinon Weiss made Jan 2 at 2015 8:14 PM

LTC Yinon Weiss — Fri, 02 Jan 2015 20:14:07 -0500

According to the formal policy, AR 600-20, 4-14 c. (2) (d) fraternization rules do not apply to:

(d) Personal relationships between members of the RA and members of the National Guard or Army Reserve when the relationship primarily exists due to civilian association and the RC member is not on AD (other than AT), on FTNGD (other than AT), or serving as a dual status military technician.

Therefore, relationships by those in the civilian workplace due to a natural work environment are not counted, at least for the Army Reserve Component. I view this to mean that two people that have to work closely in their civilian environment (for example as business partners), are not violating fraternization for the reserve component.

I think that is a fair exception, else what would you do if a key business member of a team in your company decides to join the reserves? You may not be able to work together anymore, which would be rather destructive to the RC citizen-soldier concept.

This exception does not make sense in the active component, if an officer and an NCO for example decide to open a weekend business together.

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Jan 2 at 2015 9:16 PM

CMSgt James Nolan — Fri, 02 Jan 2015 21:16:58 -0500

I do have an opinion on this. Deals with maturity. If you are going to step into a relationship (romantic or friendship-as in straight and not sexual in any way) that relationship comes with issues. You have to be mature enough to deal with that.

I absolutely know some who are unable to keep the careers separate. I.E. work with so and so Monday-Friday, show up for Drill and cannot handle calling by rank, answering yes Sir, or taking a butt chewing. Have to be able to go back and forth between the careers. Can be difficult.

Those issues can throw one or both careers off track. Romantic relationships in guard/reserves can be more problematic, because there is no PCS. Think carefully before starting one......

Response by COL Vincent Stoneking made Jan 2 at 2015 11:51 PM

COL Vincent Stoneking — Fri, 02 Jan 2015 23:51:27 -0500

So, I'm going to make three brief statements.
First, the ACTUAL regs governing fraternization-type situations for reserve component folks not on active duty have a GREAT DEAL of grey, especially compared to the active duty regs. This acknowledges that reservists are in fact in between two worlds.

Second, perception is reality, or close enough to it. Even if you color between the lines, you can find yourself in hot water.

Third, Admiral Akbar was right.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Jan 3 at 2015 1:05 AM

MSG Brad Sand — Sat, 03 Jan 2015 01:05:29 -0500

I think it is actually the policy but not sure it is enforced consistently for all components?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 3 at 2015 11:40 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 03 Jan 2015 11:40:39 -0500

CPT Private RallyPoint Member, you keep saying you are never going to fall for one of your Joes, but how do you know that? Just because you might not have anyone you are interested in today, who knows what the future holds ;)

As for inappropriate friendships, I use my actual friends as a guide. My peers can come to my place fairly unannounced, help themselves to stuff in my fridge, and sit down on my sofa. They can call at ridiculous hours to talk about their personal problems...or nothing. They might take my daughter to the mall or my son to the park and I might watch their baby while they have a date night. A relationship with an enlisted Soldier should never look like this at all. Coming over for a BBQ where everyone was invited? Sure. Going to the same church, school, etc is no issue as long as you are careful not to set up a potentially inappropriate situation (e.g., if you need a tutor, find someone else). No matter what, there will be some Soldiers you know or click with better than others. The fraternization reg is not trying to address this.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 3 at 2015 12:28 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 03 Jan 2015 12:28:06 -0500

From a purely legal standpoint, as a reserve commander I have zero jurisdiction as to what two Soldiers do on their own time away from battle assembly. Be it to enforce doing additional training or having inappropriate relationships. Zero jurisdiction. So long as people that are together and in uniform and on-duty they are professional, there is absolutely nothing anyone can do in that situation other than ask them to keep it private and professional. If two reservists meet outside of duty and then learned that they are also reservists, the command also has no jurisdiction or authority to prevent the relationship

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 3 at 2015 12:44 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 03 Jan 2015 12:44:56 -0500

While I've read all of the replies (to the point of my opinion issuance) I must say from personal experience: fraternization is fraternization is fraternization. In spite of the AR-600 reference by LTC Yinon Weiss and it's obvious reasons for it's existence I have never found that a close personal relationship with a boss to be a good thing in respect to good order and discipline in a military unit. It does not matter under what circumstances: should the boss be the boss both in a military AD scenario or in a civilian scenario or any combination of the two you can imagine - it just doesn't work, period. Let me sum it up simply: The mere APPEARANCE of impropriety creates the fact in most people's eyes. In my lifetime I've seen, observed and had to deal with just about every single possible combination (have NOT had to deal with the person/doll relationship yet) of close personal realtionships between senior and subordinate in every military/civilian, military/military, civilian/civilian, AD/RES, AD/NG, ad nauseum - you name it, I've probably had to deal with it. From the standpoint of the guy on the outside of the relationship (me) dealing with either/both of the individuals in the relationship - it's a losing proposition when it comes to me having to maintain discipline and good order with either (yes, enlisted do chastise officers - it happens all the time) in either the military scenario or the civilain scenario. From my observations - and these are only mine - when one is dealing with the heart, the folks on the outside of that relationship lose - period.

I have yet to meet a couple that can truely maintain proper order and discipline if they are working together - and I've met thousands.

'Nuff said.

Off soapbox.

Response by PO2 Corey Ferretti made Jan 3 at 2015 8:40 PM

PO2 Corey Ferretti — Sat, 03 Jan 2015 20:40:24 -0500

This is tricky because of how the reserve component works. What if you and your buddy work togther on the civilian side he brought you in. Your friend is a O4 and you enlist as a E3. When you go to drill there should be a different relationship then when you are outside the drill hall. It is complicated due to the fact you have to be disciplined enough to do both not easy as your post above shows.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 4 at 2015 12:22 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 04 Jan 2015 00:22:47 -0500

I think the issue with the dual-status soldiers should really be left up to them to police it themselves. For example, Mister so-and-so should be enforcing that people address him properly as SGT so-and-so on drill weekends.

Fraternization should also be consistent among components. I'm a firm believer that you are NOT going to meet your "soul mate" on a 2 week ECT or battle assembly, and have personally watched the drama ensue from soldiers dating themselves and creating problems that the rest of the unit has to pick up after (keeping them separated during a fights, disputes, ex's drama, etc).

Things can get blurry, but we all have to remember that even though you're TPU you're still subject to the same standards and ramifications regardless if you're on or off duty. If you're busted in a domestic violence while "off duty" on a non-drill weekday, you can still get in trouble with the Army. Same things with DUI's, sexual assaults, even some first amendment issues as well. I don't see how fraternization should be different, it's just a lot more difficult to police.

There's billions of people in the world... I'm sure they can find someone else. lol

Response by LTC Steve Summy made Jan 4 at 2015 3:31 PM

LTC Steve Summy — Sun, 04 Jan 2015 15:31:20 -0500

I had a relationship as a 1LT with a Specialist while stationed in Germany. It was legal back then because I was an Artillery Officer and she was a Signal Corps soldier so we were not in the same chain of command. I see no issue unless your in the same unit and have influence in their careers.

Response by SPC Angel Guma made Feb 24 at 2015 3:07 PM

SPC Angel Guma — Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:07:46 -0500

A specialist with a Major? Yeah right.

Response by 1LT Nick Kidwell made Feb 24 at 2015 3:12 PM

1LT Nick Kidwell — Tue, 24 Feb 2015 15:12:42 -0500

The regs should be consistent, and people should be professional enough to realize that "off-duty" activity involving other servicemembers affects the time you are "on-duty."

Response by MAJ Ronnie Reams made Feb 24 at 2015 5:44 PM

MAJ Ronnie Reams — Tue, 24 Feb 2015 17:44:29 -0500

Reminds me of either Reagan or Bush 41's SECNAV who was also a LtCdr USNR Aviator.
One year when he took off to NAS Oceana, a member of the 4th estate asked if it was
awkward being SECNAV and going to Annual Training, he said "heck, no, I'm just one of the guys down there." Then he allowed he did get some visits from Flag Officers that other guys in Squadron did not, lol

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2015 10:30 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 26 Feb 2015 10:30:24 -0500

I think they should lax the standards for everyone. So far I have seen 6 relationships that were inappropriate but ended in marriage. Nothing was ever said or done about it. No reprimands. Not even a slap on the wrist. Why have these standards of they are never enforced?

Response by CW2 Eric Scott made Feb 26 at 2015 11:11 AM

CW2 Eric Scott — Thu, 26 Feb 2015 11:11:49 -0500

The National Guard and Army Reserve should, and do, have zero fraternization policies while they are not on duty. They are not full time soldiers despite the general jargon. When they go to drill, are activated, or act in a manner which reflects their uniform. This is why, (if you haven't done it it's hard to know), being a National Guard or Army Reserve Soldier is sometimes harder than an active Army soldier.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 26 at 2015 11:22 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 26 Feb 2015 11:22:32 -0500

Fraternization happens in the Reserves. There is no way around it. From service members going to college together, living together, working together or in general being friends outside of drill weekends.

I worked for almost a year with a junior Marine while I was an NCO. At work I was Jordan and he was Sam. On drill weekends, I was Sgt. Vied and he was LCpl Monahan. It wasn't a big deal for us at all.

Reservist seem to be unique in the way they handle this and it is difficult for Active Components to understand. We stay in the same units for our entire contracts unless we move and need to transfer. (I knew a Gunny in the same unit for 22 years). Our unit cohesiveness is generally higher than most Active units because of this.

Just because Monday-Friday we go by first names with each other doesn't mean we don't have that professional switch that we can turn on in an instance and immediately go to rank and seniority. In my 6 years I haven't seen a big issue with this at all in the Marine Corps Reserves. Other branches may be different though

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2015 1:36 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 13:36:21 -0500

If we are truley a professional organization and our soldiers are expected to act like professionals and not a bunch of frat partying college kids, then the regulations should support professionals not become so restrictive that we professionals are not allowed to demonstrate our professionalism. In basic training you have very strict walk a fine line rules and regulations in order to keep in check the civilians you are trying to turn into professional soldiers. In permanent party, if you cant act like grown adults and know where to draw the line between frat initiation and professional behavior then you need to go back to being a civilian. Why does the military continue to boast about the professionals serving our military forces, yet continue to bind our ability to act as such with over the top regulations?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2015 4:12 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 16:12:18 -0500

I consider myself a soldier first, even though the Army designates me a Reservist.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 17 at 2016 3:47 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 17 Jan 2016 15:47:50 -0500

If they are not int he same chain of command; so what? As long as the officer is not using their influence to the enlisted member, who cares? No matter what happens, when you have two military members, people are going to talk trash.

Response by PO3 Sherry Thornburg made Jan 18 at 2016 3:53 PM

PO3 Sherry Thornburg — Mon, 18 Jan 2016 15:53:52 -0500

I vote this way because I have known a bunch of married duel service couples, some who got in trouble when someone decided to bring fraternization charges against them later. (If it was never an issue while they were dating, why is it suddenly an issue when they marry?) Dating with-in and across commands, regardless of rank, can and does happen, but not per service regulations.

At some commands the fraternization police were so bad, I couldn't ask an officer a question if we weren't in a formal office setting. It wasn't much different for lower non-commissioned officers to upper either. That doesn't help communication or espirit-de-corps.

Keep it professional at work, keep it respectful at all times; but keep it from being a burden and hindrance to daily inter-work relations.

Response by SPC Kenneth Koerperich made Jun 15 at 2017 6:37 AM

SPC Kenneth Koerperich — Thu, 15 Jun 2017 06:37:59 -0400

I worked Active and Reservist. Should be same for both.

Really sucked as Reservist as they are exemplifying the "Weekend Warrior" mentality as they never used Rank, rarely said, "Sir/Ma'am". Then come AT time, as many also were "Romantically" involved outside the Unit, you would end up finding them sneaking off and doing hanky-panky instead of doing their jobs.

Most didn't like me, as I was coming off Active, Combat Veteran, and Infantry, into a Medical Unit, that IMO, had a few good soldiers/officers, but way to much "weekend warrior" bullshit going on. Needless to say I didn't stick around long, as I felt it wasn't proper military. Just a bunch of college kiddies playing soldier....

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2017 7:38 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 15 Jun 2017 07:38:06 -0400

Like any job, sometimes the enemy is the one you sleep with. It's up to you to own what your willing to lose for a night or day of fun.

Just my thoughts.

Response by LTC Patrick Turner made Jun 18 at 2017 11:55 PM

LTC Patrick Turner — Sun, 18 Jun 2017 23:55:14 -0400

It takes mature people to understand fraternization. I worked at the highest levels of corporate America for many years while being a Reservist. My boss,the CEO of a very large entity, saw that although we were on a first name basis, he would be ruthless when it came to having the job done and I understood. An immature person would say, hey, you are on a first name basis with the Boss when in fact it had nothing to do with true fraternization. Same thing with the military. Superiors call subordinates by their first name but it should never be the other way around. MATURE people understand that. Irresponsible individuals bring romantic and personal relationships into the Reserves and I believe its not good for unit cohesion. Cohesion is what holds EVERY unit and civilian company together. When people are treated differently, its destructive to morale and the mission suffers. Being consistent, fair and professional will ALWAYS be good for the unit. Only when personal agendas come to light will it suffer.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 28 at 2017 10:15 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Jul 2017 22:15:27 -0400

Here is an oddball question along these lines. I am currently in a relationship and she is looking to enlist. I have been invited to submit a packet for OCS. Would fraternization come into play if her and I are in the same company but different platoons? I am currently in an Army Reserve MP company.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2019 12:46 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 24 Jan 2019 12:46:10 -0500

I've been in the military for 16 years. 8 active and 8 reserves. It doesn't matter if I'm on my one weekend a month or not I still carry myself as an US Army soldier. All regulations matter to me. Reservists are still soldiers, sailors, airman, coasties and marines. That ID card says you're part of the Armed services. Perception is reality. Fraternization is not tolerated. Point blank period.

Response by CPL Brandon Kling made Jan 24 at 2019 1:34 PM

CPL Brandon Kling — Thu, 24 Jan 2019 13:34:46 -0500

Several have already stated it, but maturity is a big factor in fraternization. I've been friends with NCOs and commissioned officers who either served outside of my CoC/NCO support channel, or were my immediate NCO. We understood that outside of work, we could be Brandon, Jimmy, Mike, Jake, whatever, but at work and in uniform they were SGT, SFC, CPT, SSG, whatever. For one, I avoided being a dirtbag and doing dumb crap, and for two, because these guys are my friends, they deserve the respect that their rank entitles them to. If they assigned me on a crap detail or weekend duty, I didn't bitch, I did what was required, and I didn't hold against my friends, as they have a duty to complete.

If both parties can maintain the professionalism, discipline, and maturity whil in uniform and on duty, then fraternization should be a non issue. As to romantic relationships, I think it's a bad idea if they are in the same CoC, but if they are in two different branches, and will probably have little to no interaction in uniform, what's the problem?

Response by PO1 Michael Bruner made Jan 24 at 2019 4:25 PM

PO1 Michael Bruner — Thu, 24 Jan 2019 16:25:00 -0500

When I was a reservist, roughly half my unit worked at the same site in our civilian jobs. We were told by our bosses that our reserve lives had no bearing there.

Response by MSG Scott McBride made Jan 24 at 2019 5:47 PM

MSG Scott McBride — Thu, 24 Jan 2019 17:47:19 -0500

Here we go again with another question that can be answered by picking up the AR and your local command policies.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2019 8:29 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 24 Jan 2019 20:29:57 -0500

The Reserves/Nationa Guard can’t live under the same guidelines as active because there exists a civilian lifestyle that can overlap. I recall a story done by a popular newspaper showcasing a relationship between a business owner who owns a construction company in civilian life who is an E4 in the guard and his senior engineer with his company who happens to be his battalion commander when in uniform. I read this while in Afghanistan I’m 2008 and his guard unit was assigned to Afghanistan as well.

Response by 1SG Paul Beal made Jan 24 at 2019 9:08 PM

1SG Paul Beal — Thu, 24 Jan 2019 21:08:10 -0500

I will never forget when a (somewhat douche) major publicly got after an MSG on a Sunday. Reminded him that he was an officer and the MSG WAS “just” an enlisted man. To which the MSG replied “yes, today you’re a major and I’m a sergeant. Never forget that tomorrow you’re a middle school history teacher and I’m the superintendent. “. I almost wet myself. The relationships in the reserve components can be VERY complicated.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2019 9:25 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 24 Jan 2019 21:25:05 -0500

What I have seen since so many officers and enlisted in NG work together in the civilian sector, is the burden has been to prove favouritism has stemmed from their outside relationship.

Response by MAJ Mark Anderson made Jan 24 at 2019 10:45 PM

MAJ Mark Anderson — Thu, 24 Jan 2019 22:45:09 -0500

As long as I may have to order a subordinate to perform some task that might get them killed, I should not have my judgement colored by another relationship.

Response by HA Jace Gallagher made Jan 25 at 2019 1:35 AM

HA Jace Gallagher — Fri, 25 Jan 2019 01:35:19 -0500

Fraternization policy should only be enforced while on a military mission. Nobody should be expected to live a restricted life for a job that meets 1 weekend a month. When deployed or activated then apply active duty standard.

Response by SFC William Dinwiddie made Jan 25 at 2019 2:41 AM

SFC William Dinwiddie — Fri, 25 Jan 2019 02:41:08 -0500

I am retired reserve in some cases the roll is reversed the civilian boss is the subordinate at drill and at do fraternisation is a great big grey area in the reserves and guard so the bottom line here as long as when personnel are on duty again refering to drill and at or even in uniform as long as regulations are enforced and discipline maintained I see no issue here. As former active duty there are lines that should not be crossed.

Response by LTC Leonard M. Manning, Sr made Jan 25 at 2019 6:23 AM

LTC Leonard M. Manning, Sr — Fri, 25 Jan 2019 06:23:14 -0500

While I was a company commander in the National Guard I had a female SSG who worked in the Aid Station who was interested in me. I did not return the interest because I was the Commander and I did not want any of my soldiers to think that she was getting special treatment. I dod not fraternize with her at all. while in command.

Response by LTC Michael Garrison made Jan 25 at 2019 9:33 AM

LTC Michael Garrison — Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:33:39 -0500

While there is a legitimate question regarding RC fraternization, the transition to weekend service member from a civilian job is smoother than one may think in my experience. I have seen true military discipline among Guard and Reservists.

Response by SSG Doug Terrel made Jan 25 at 2019 12:15 PM

SSG Doug Terrel — Fri, 25 Jan 2019 12:15:04 -0500

If you're looking for Active duty standards, go active duty.

Response by SSgt Gerald Davis Jr made Jan 25 at 2019 4:49 PM

SSgt Gerald Davis Jr — Fri, 25 Jan 2019 16:49:43 -0500

9 years active in the Marines. 3 Marine reserves. 10 National Guard. I knew one person under me that I could associate with off duty. We drank together among other things and he never called me anything but Sergeant and never asked for favors at work. Fraternization rules are to keep the work environment uncomplicated.

Response by SFC William Huse made Jan 25 at 2019 5:31 PM

SFC William Huse — Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:31:54 -0500

even NCO to junior enlisted or officer to either one, as long as the relationship is not affected in the direct chain of command there should be no problem. I would say that only in conditions of combat or combat zone would there be a potential problem.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2019 7:45 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 Jan 2019 19:45:21 -0500

Sounds like full time technicians during tje week. Yes, they need to maintain military bearing, even though they are "Mister" during the week. I have never worked with a fellow unit member in civilian life though. Some of my fellow teachers are in other reserve components and enlisted, but we have only officially known each other as teachers, so this is a very different situation.

Response by CSM Ralph Hernandez made Jan 25 at 2019 9:16 PM

CSM Ralph Hernandez — Fri, 25 Jan 2019 21:16:56 -0500

Regulations are there for a reason. When you relax or change a regulation for the U.S.Reserves all that you are doing is setting that Soldier up for failer, because when that Soldier goes on his Annual Training or is mobilized or deployed he could get himself in a lot of trouble or try to use that as a defense. As the old saying goes, if it's not broke don't fix it!

Response by SPC Brad Pratt made Jan 26 at 2019 10:59 AM

SPC Brad Pratt — Sat, 26 Jan 2019 10:59:42 -0500

It wasn’t fraternization but I actually got a counseling from the 1st Sgt for stopping a female soldier from slipping on ice. Reached out to catch her & rubbed her breast in the process. She reported it.
#DramaQueen

Response by SPC Zach Lockhart made Jan 26 at 2019 11:43 AM

SPC Zach Lockhart — Sat, 26 Jan 2019 11:43:28 -0500

I knew an AD E-3 in the Navy who was getting with an O-4...

Response by CSM James Skellion made Jan 26 at 2019 11:55 AM

CSM James Skellion — Sat, 26 Jan 2019 11:55:29 -0500

Active Duty and Reserves serve together, especially during mobilization into hostile areas! Separation of rank and First Name identification is a must for good order and discipline. No favoritism for Reserve friends over Active Duty. Rank and last name is proper protocol

Response by MSgt Thomas Welch made Jan 26 at 2019 4:55 PM

MSgt Thomas Welch — Sat, 26 Jan 2019 16:55:39 -0500

it is difficult to work with a guy all month long as Jim and one weekend he is now Msgt. Buck, even harder when during the month you are the lead at the shop and he answers to you. however it's not about you it is about the mission.

Response by MSgt Sharon Mallory-Robinson made Jan 26 at 2019 6:31 PM

MSgt Sharon Mallory-Robinson — Sat, 26 Jan 2019 18:31:07 -0500

When I first joined the Air National Guard, my older sister was in a different unit, she worked first in a different part of the State, then at OTAG. When she transferred into my squadron, she became my NCOIC. Our personal relationship outside the Squadron, and our professional relationship in the Squadron, were kept separate. A few years later I met and started dating my husband, who was also in my Squadron.
On a different note, one of our Squadron Commanders, a Major, was married to an A1C assigned to our Group Headquarters. She was not under his command, and did not deploy with us. Guard and Reserve is a different world then Active Duty.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2019 8:14 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Jan 2019 08:14:09 -0500

There ia a difference between fraternization and socialization. An interesting observation associated with this particular issues is the ever decreasing level of education gap between officares and enlisted, particularly within the Reserve Component. Additionally, enlisted Soldiers have been assuming and performing duties previously performed by officers leaving officers to their own devices frequently resulting in conduct incongruent qith good order and discipline.

Response by PO3 John Ramirez made Jan 27 at 2019 9:27 AM

PO3 John Ramirez — Sun, 27 Jan 2019 09:27:44 -0500

Military service is VOLUNTARY.
When you join YOU agree to live under and abide by THE UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE.
That is all.

Response by Cpl Jim Canning made Jan 27 at 2019 6:13 PM

Cpl Jim Canning — Sun, 27 Jan 2019 18:13:32 -0500

Though I never fraternized, reserve components may be more lax with this due to they also have Civilian jobs. I her two rather funny situations. While in the Pennsylvania National Guard, I was a truck driver. I arrived at a warehouse for a drop off and pickup. The dock workers had to load and upload to my specifications. One of the workers was my Company Commander. A few years later I was in Florida working security with an International Company, with the company I was a Major. In the Guard, I was a spec 4. Didn't take promotions because I didn't want to change units. Any way, 3 kids that worked for me for the company, were in the unit. 2 were 2nd Lt's and one 1st Lt.
On one of our extended training weekends, I was with the Co, the Blt Co and Co. I was the Supply Sgt. and without a company XO, the supply Sgt acts as the XO.
Well the 3 Lt's walk up to us and said "excuse us Sir" So the Blt. XO said yes, they replied sorry not you Sir, we need to speak to Me. Canning.
The the Blt. XO stared and the Co explained to him I was their boss in their civilian jobs. Lol They needed to talk to me about having the day off the day after we got back.

It's because of situations like this, where roles may be reversed or you may by co workers in civilian jobs, that fraterniznation may be more lax in reserve components.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2019 10:05 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 02 May 2019 10:05:39 -0400

After reading the regulations I am still looking for answers just based on status. Say an AGR SSG meets (in the civilian world) a traditional 1LT. They hit it off and they want to start dating. They are apart of two different state National Guards and the 1LT is not anywhere near the SSGs chain of command. Does this fall in the exception?

I read in the reg about how if they are both traditional, because it is a primarily civilian relationship it does. But does the AGR status effect this?

Two different state National Guard?
Completely different MOSs.