First Initial Counseling

1LT Ryan Millican — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:20:06 -0500

Ok, I wanted to get a little feedback here, since the last question I asked got such great feedback. Here in about a month I have to do the first initial counseling with my PSG. Any suggestion on what I should talk with him about, without trying to reach outside of limitations on knowledge base vs. his. Any input from any current or prior NCOs is very much appreciated.

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Nov 18 at 2015 4:21 PM

LTC Stephen F. — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:21:35 -0500

Does he support you 1LT Ryan Millican?
I would discuss with him
(1) how you both can improve the leadership skills of the squad leaders.
(2) how you can use down time to improve the platoon's training, esprit and teamwork.
(3) get his advice on what you could do to improve one or two weak areas of your own - if you trust him implicitly.

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2015 4:23 PM

CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:23:25 -0500

For sure include that you expect him to help develop you. You are his mentee and he/she your mentor. That relationship must be established ASAP. Good luck.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2015 4:24 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:24:02 -0500

Maintaining accountability, communication,unit readiness, and mainly your expectations. Those are just some key topics. You can always add to but not take away.

Response by 1LT Christopher Sorge made Nov 18 at 2015 4:35 PM

1LT Christopher Sorge — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:35:39 -0500

Ask for a copy of his prior NCOERs and have him fill out a ncoer supplemental online in the new EES - https://evaluations.hrc.army.mil

Also brush up on military writing styles per DA 600-67 and AR 25-50.

Response by Cpl Shane Cunningham made Nov 18 at 2015 5:08 PM

Cpl Shane Cunningham — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 17:08:28 -0500

My two cents, for what it's worth. I had a marketing degree and my own business before I enlisted in the Corps. I just did it for the challenge haha. So now I'm a 29 year old E-4 who's the same age as my E-7.

He's not going to be able to tell me much about life, since the Corps all he knows, but he knows way more about the Marines. I respect him because we understand each other in that aspect.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Nov 18 at 2015 6:10 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 18:10:51 -0500

APFT Average, Maintenance, Training, Taking Care of Soldiers, Technically and tactically sound. Planning and execution.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Nov 18 at 2015 6:46 PM

CAPT Kevin B. — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 18:46:16 -0500

Some good advice here. You and the PSG are a leadership team. Make sure you convey the PSG is in charge of NCO stuff and you stay out of it. You both need to know who the problem children are, if any, and make sure a corrective plan is in place. BTW that plan should be what the Skipper and SEL support and how they want things done. Discuss where the troops are in terms of skill, development, distractions, etc. You have to know where your platoon sits among the other elements of the Command so you know when to step forward for them and when to keep your mouth shut. Make sure you both use the CoC on the E and O side correctly.

Since your PSG isn't a newbie, find out what his/her plans are for their own development. The PSG should want something out of the tour. So you'd make sure excellent performance is highlighted up line. Make sure neither of you are punching tickets. There's people counting on you. Don't let them down. There should be 2-3 biggies you both want to make happen over the next year. Identify them and agree on the game plan to make it happen. If either of you makes a 100 item shopping list, come out my way. I have this plank you need to walk.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2015 6:52 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 18:52:33 -0500

You should be sharing your goals; he should be sharing his assessment of the troops and where you are at, as well as recommendations for training priorities.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2015 6:54 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 18:54:28 -0500

tell him your new and your here to learn from him, don't expect to come in the first day and have a grand plan. He will take care of you if you are open and honest with him.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 18 at 2015 7:18 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 19:18:25 -0500

I Totally disagree 2LT Sorge, you don't need his prior NCOERs. Evaluate him for the job he is/will be doing. It's against regulations to ask for prior evaluations. Lends to promoting a bias opinion on your part - good or bad.

Yes, you and he are a team - fact! But, you are the Platoon Leader and he should have some expectations from you laid out before him. What are your goals for the platoon? Are you in the position first or are you replacing another officer? Goes to experience.

Find out his goals for the platoon and see where possibly you can leverage his experience as well as the Squad Leaders to work towards those goals.

You also need to understand what your Commanders goals are for the Company and tie those into your counseling so you are "nested" with higher.

Just my thoughts .....

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Nov 18 at 2015 9:39 PM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:39:51 -0500

Lots of good advice already. Counseling w your PSG should be a two-way convo. Be an active listener and expect him/her to be as well. The two of you must work together and be a unified command of that platoon.

Response by CW4 Russ Hamilton (Ret) made Nov 19 at 2015 12:01 AM

CW4 Russ Hamilton (Ret) — Thu, 19 Nov 2015 00:01:46 -0500

Don’t know that I can add much to all the great comments here. As a Platoon Leader myself, one of the most important things I want to know about are issues with individual Soldiers. I assure you, your PSG is way more dialed in on this than you will ever be – nature of the beast. Beyond that, I would look at my OER Spt form, along with my CO CDR’s for important things. NCO’s will be going to the new NCOER and Spt form (like officers) before long – that should be discussed as it is… different. The NCO’s are gonna love it! I also ask to be cc’d on most all emails to the PLT so I know what is being put out. In my unit, training schedules are sent out months in advance – for our platoon, my PSG is responsible for identifying and notifying trainers for classes we are responsible for. I guess bottom line is communication between the both of you. I just got a new PSG so the timing of this topic is great! Fortunately, I know my new PSG and that he is very capable.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 19 at 2015 8:33 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Nov 2015 08:33:38 -0500

Vision, intent, division of work/responsibilities and Goals- personal and professional

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 19 at 2015 10:35 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Nov 2015 10:35:04 -0500

Cover the areas you need to cover for example suspense, formation, uniform, duties and responsibilities you expect. Make you expectations know verbally and written. Include your PSG in the counseling. If they have buy=in and stock into the counseling it will be more effective.

Response by SFC Brian Ewing made Nov 19 at 2015 12:19 PM

SFC Brian Ewing — Thu, 19 Nov 2015 12:19:00 -0500

Honestly there are so many templates out there that are already set up for you to do Initial Counseling, so why re-create the wheel??

Work Smarter, not Harder is my Motto!! Google Initial Counseling Examples/Templates, there are so many excellent examples already there for you to plagiarize.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 19 at 2015 2:18 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Nov 2015 14:18:55 -0500

Well, first you should be clear if you are doing a first or an initial counseling. Then, take CPT Forbes advice below. But don't forget to go into the conversation with a clear idea in your head of your expectations of the PSG and what the PSG is supposed to expect from you. That requires you to take the time to think through what a PSG and a PL are supposed to be doing as you understand it. That way when you do have a conversation over a blank 4856, it is a conversation rather than the PSG just telling you how its gonna be, even if he is nice about it and always remembers to say "sir". The PL and PSG have a relationship, which can be a power-team or massively dysfunctional or anywhere in between. Relationships are always built on clear expectations that are lived up to.

Response by LTC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 20 at 2015 1:34 AM

LTC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Nov 2015 01:34:07 -0500

All great responses, my first time over 20 years ago I sat down with an NCO ER and talked about what we both thought were measures of success

Response by SPC Brian Bay made Nov 20 at 2015 2:15 AM

SPC Brian Bay — Fri, 20 Nov 2015 02:15:12 -0500

LT,
I'd offer this as food for thought. Take the approach of a Servant Leader. You won't or shouldn't have to establish your seniority or higher rank...PSG has been in the Army and understands the rank structure. As far as laying out your expectations of him, I would expect that he will keep you informed of anything issues that arise within the platoon (further clarify that you will support him in how the enlisted matters are handled but that you trust him to keep you in the loop). Next I would expect to have clear and open lines of communication (share how you prefer to receive your communication and ask what his preferences are as well...that way you guys can effectively approach one another). Your goal should be to learn from him and you should express your desire to be involved with the platoon yet you respect his time with them as well (set boundaries so that you don't appear to be micro-managing).

Ensure that there are safety checks in place that prevent you from having both the compass and the map at the same time....trust me, he'll probably laugh; if you actually put that in the counseling, you'll be the most memorable PL that he's had and he'll probably frame it.

Hell, come up with some subtle signals that the two of you guys can agree to so that neither of you have to make the other look bad in front of the soldiers. That way he can respectfully and quickly communicate "Sir get the hell out of here, we're in the middle of something." or "PSG, this is urgent and I need to speak to you privately." That way you both appear to all that you're working with great chemistry and nobody has to go alpha dog on the other. It's mutual respect. Have the expectation that he gently remind you of your faults, aid in the reformation of said faults and defend your character; ensure that you will do the same.

Positive reinforcement goes along way; you focus on making him look like a rockstar along with the members of the platoon and they'll fall on their swords for your success.

Response by SSG Jason Penn made Nov 23 at 2015 8:30 PM

SSG Jason Penn — Mon, 23 Nov 2015 20:30:41 -0500

Sir, in the early 90's I was an NCOIC of an MI LNO team for 124 MI BN, 24 ID that acted as a liaison between the MI assets and the maneuver Brigades. In the late 90's, I was the dissemination NCOIC for the SIGINT section of the USAEUR ACE in Augsburg, and then Darmstadt, Germany. In the winter of 98-99 I was the night shift NCOIC of the United States National Intelligence Center (USNIC) in Sarajevo working directly for COMSFOR. In 2006, I became a PSG for the SIGINT PLT, A Co, 4-3 BTSB, 4 BDE, 3 ID, and remained in that position for 2 years to include combat time. The one thing that I learned in all of these positions is that your enlisted and officer leadership need to work as one. Your PSG is to provide you operational guidance based on his/her experiences and knowledge, but as the officer, you make the final decision that your PSG has to ensure that is carried out. You will NOT work as a team if your PSG does not know what to expect from you nor what you expect from your PSG. It is best for that initial counselling to inform your new PSG what your expectations are and what he/she can expect from you. There are plenty of counselling examples out there to help you develop your own. Remember that your PSG can make or break your career. Don't run your PLT like a tyrant, but don't let your PSG and troops walk all over you. I had good officers and poor officers working over me; the best ones were the ones who told me what they wanted and then got out of my way to let me get it done. Good luck sir!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 26 at 2015 11:28 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 26 Nov 2015 11:28:57 -0500

I remember my first counseling and I was nervous as hell.

I think, if you can, find out if your commander has his command philosophy written out, and use that as a guideline for what his points of emphasis are in the command and incorporate them into a counseling statement. Another thing that a former 1SG taught me was to write counselings in memo format, rather than on the 3856 and make sure the documents are attached. It has allowed me to be more thorough, and have a good document for reference. PM me if you'd like a copy.

And the most important thing is to frame it as a conversation, rather than a top down approach. That has always helped me. With future quarterly counselings, I always have the rated NCO bring in things that they think they've done well/improved on, and then I bring my list too and we compare.

Response by SFC Jason Evans made Feb 9 at 2018 1:18 PM

SFC Jason Evans — Fri, 09 Feb 2018 13:18:24 -0500

I would use this as a starting point
https://youtu.be/vpHdaUn3BOw

How to Complete Initial NCO Counseling Form

Initial Counseling Session for NCO's. I quickly go over how I completed a 4856 for a new NCO. Links for downloadable template that I use in the video. Initia...

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 4 at 2018 1:36 AM

PV2 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 04 Jun 2018 01:36:23 -0400

I had a negative counseling for having a smoke grenade in my bag. My reason was nobody told me to turn in back and i remember asking and didn't get any answer telling to do so. Is that one bad for my carrier?

Response by SFC Jason Evans made Jul 30 at 2018 10:45 AM

SFC Jason Evans — Mon, 30 Jul 2018 10:45:33 -0400

https://youtu.be/vpHdaUn3BOw

How to Complete Initial NCO Counseling Form

Initial Counseling Session for NCO's. I quickly go over how I completed a 4856 for a new NCO. Links for downloadable template that I use in the video. Initia...

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