Fact or Fiction? If outside, under cover, you are not required to wear head gear.

2013-12-05T07:30:01-05:00

I get to hear a lot of interesting questions and stories.

Figured I would start postingg some "common" stuff that either I heard growing up or Soldiers have told me that they have heard.

Want to see what folks have been told, what they believe and what is actually right.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Dec 5 at 2013 8:31 AM

2013-12-05T08:31:53-05:00

The phrase "under cover" literally does not occur in AR 670-1 (I've just cntrl+F'ed it like 10 times to be sure). What it DOES say, is that it will be worn outdoors. So I guess the only lattitude a barracks lawyer could find is "how do you define outdoors?", but I don't see that flying far...

Response by SFC Josh Watson made Dec 5 at 2013 8:38 AM

2013-12-05T08:38:40-05:00

When I worked at the NCOA as an SGL, the Commandant and Deputy told us young uns' that since there is a roof over our head we didn't have to wear our head gear. This was brought up on a "fill day" when sponsors were correcting the NCOA cadre for not wearing their headgear in the breezeway area. Honestly though, I never looked it up. I figured If the Commandant and Deputy said that was the rule, it was good enough for me. Then again, there are "no head gear/salute" areas in some Unit footprints. This may be one of those Command discretion things.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2013 4:49 PM

2013-12-05T16:49:43-05:00

I have heard that you may remove your cover if you are surrounded on three sides by walls and you have cover overhead...

additionally, there are designated "no hat", "no salute", etc. zones where headgear is not required (e.g. the flight line).

I have no regulation or policy letter to back that up, though...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2013 4:53 PM

2013-12-05T16:53:24-05:00

CSM, I believe its a fact, I don't know for sure but I think so.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2013 4:55 PM

2013-12-05T16:55:55-05:00

I believe is up to the leadership.

Response by 1SG Johnny Carter made Dec 5 at 2013 4:57 PM

2013-12-05T16:57:20-05:00

If outside and the area is marked no head gear then no head gear, but if it isn't marked you wear head gear Or be prepared to be put on CSM's grass cutting detail! LOL So i have been told.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2013 5:44 PM

2013-12-05T17:44:17-05:00

If we're not surrounded by 3 walls, we are outdoors and should wear headgear. But if I'm the only one wearing headgear, I take mine off for uniformity's sake.

Response by SSG Laureano Pabon made Dec 5 at 2013 6:05 PM

2013-12-05T18:05:11-05:00

This is rather ok to ask.

Only one thing.

I want go back in time, back to June-July 1976

when polaroid was used to take pictures.

The location: Ft. Sill Oklahoma

Activity: Arrived from a 10 mile road march, firing range.

Notes: Basic Training.

Observe: Look at every solider around me, I'm the one with the M-16

What do you see? Look at every ones head, now our drill SGTS were all aware and were around. In this were cleaning our TA-50 and weapons out side.

Army then VS the question and AR stated Army Now.

Interesting you think?

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2013 6:12 PM

2013-12-05T18:12:19-05:00

I'm not up-to-date on the Army reg's - but I remember in the Marines if you were outside you had to be wearing your 'cover' - the only time you wore it indoors was if you were 'under arms' (Armed). As to the Air Force, if you were under cover outside it seemed to be allowed. I know that a lot of the personnel I came into contact with would keep their head gear on when they came indoors; that was a violation. I kept my beret on indoors when I was on-duty and 'armed'. So, for a majority of my career with the Air Force I had my beret on - not to often was I un-armed.

Response by SFC Josh Watson made Dec 5 at 2013 7:13 PM

2013-12-05T19:13:49-05:00

Where did this three wall building idea even come from? I can't imagine the military is full of three walled buildings. They can't be that common at all to base a regulation off of it.

Response by SFC Rene' Sanchez made Dec 6 at 2013 3:46 AM

2013-12-06T03:46:12-05:00

CSM, the response to that question is fiction.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Dec 7 at 2013 4:33 PM

2013-12-07T16:33:15-05:00

I though if you were undercover, it's supposed to be a secret.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2014 7:20 AM

2014-01-08T07:20:39-05:00

Sadly the CSM is right, far too many people in the Army fail to educate themselves and or question unwritten rules and merely act like lemmings.

Plain an simple in my rule book, if you live or work there it is considered indoors, that includes tents in the field. Other than that you had better have a cover on.

Even as an MP with the right to wear indoors when under arms I tend to still take mine off because I'm pretty sure the gun belt and pistol lets people know I am armed.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2014 9:52 AM

2014-01-08T09:52:17-05:00

CSM, I've always been told that three walls and an overhead constitutes as cover, anything less and you need to have head gear.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2014 10:19 AM

2014-01-08T10:19:17-05:00

I remember being a dumb private and believing this rumor. I educated myself though; one time I was corrected for not wearing it outdoors and me, being the smart ass I am, quoted this as if it were told to me by God myself. The NCO turned around and told me to bring him the printed regulation, or the page and section of 670-1 that said that. If I couldn't find it, I was to write a 5,000 word essay on why it was important to research my own answers, and how that applied to being a leader.

Needless to say after that 5,000 word essay...I understood and I never take people's opinions at face value.

Adding to the fire, of the discussion....

Can soldier's walk and smoke/talk on cellphones/eat/drink? This answer always kills me.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2014 5:16 PM

2014-10-29T17:16:57-04:00

CSM,
I just came across this as I was researching the question. There is a building here with an open courtyard, surrounded by a covered walkway. I was corrected by a friend of mine that I should have my headgear on, as the courtyard is considered "outdoors". I put my headgear on and wanted to come read the regs in detail to get an understanding myself, as I always believed that a roof over your head constituted "cover", and headgear wasn't necessary. Now I know that the only definition that matters is indoors vs outdoors in the regulation, and a courtyard in its entirety is considered outdoors and headgear must be worn. Good to see this discussion on here, even if I'm a year late to the party.

Response by SFC Roberto Garza Jr. made Dec 30 at 2014 9:11 AM

2014-12-30T09:11:49-05:00

CSM, you bring up a great question for the young soldiers and NCO'S, FICTION, it's clearly stated in the regulation .

Response by MAJ Raúl Rovira made Feb 14 at 2015 6:04 PM

2015-02-14T18:04:16-05:00

CSM Mike Maynard,

This is a great question. It is amazing how many urban legends and twisted regs by barracks lawyers are out there.

Recently I witnessed an NCO on PTs who stated to me (on ACU) that he does not have to salute because he is "under cover". We are outside waiting for the gym to open. The roof is about 10 feet high and extends maybe 3 feet.

He dug the hole deeper by saying that "its in the regulation, I'm under cover, I dont have to salute". Due to time limitation we went our separate ways that day. He was polite and professional on his responses, just inaccurate. On the next PT day at 0530 I closed the conversation with him and explain to him about outdoors and indoors. All professional, the same way I would expect any NCO or private to correct me.

What is unfortunate about the situation is to have this NCO state its on the regulation (without stating which one) when in fact there is nothing on any the regulation.

The NCO stated that he talked about it with other NCOs and when it doubt he should just salute. I took it positively because he tried to re-check his azimuth. But I can tell that he still does not agree and was holding on to his secret AR.

In the end, its another solder, now NCO, who believed an urban legend for many years.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2015 1:22 AM

2015-02-15T01:22:14-05:00

If there is a sign that says "no hat no salute area" then that is as it should be. Otherwise wear head gear.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2015 3:08 AM

2015-02-15T03:08:31-05:00

Fiction. It's legend that has always been out there and for a period of time I thought it to be true because those above me spread it. This goes back almost 20 years ago when I was a Private. Here is a fact or fiction for you CSM. If under arms and indoors, do you have to take your cover off?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2015 3:23 AM

2015-02-15T03:23:40-05:00

One of my favorites is the old "you can have one hand in your pocket while instructing." I have yet to see that in black and white.

Response by SGT Sean O'Hara made Sep 25 at 2015 11:22 PM

2015-09-25T23:22:47-04:00

Unless given specific orders to remove headgear, it must be worn at all times.

Response by SGT Jose Perdelia-Torres made Feb 11 at 2016 9:58 PM

2016-02-11T21:58:19-05:00

So from what I read, you have to wear a cover if you are outside, right? I got into it with a Staff Sergeant who doesn't wear his cover when under a cover (building overhang) here at the Penn State University. Of course he got all high and mighty when I called him out on it and another Staff Sergeant cited Ar 670-1 saying that he could do what he wanted because of the AR allowing that privilege. Either way the overhang was very tiny and virtually non-existing and the said Staff Sergeant wasn't even underneath it.

Sad Rallypoint that our future officers are being taught by turdbags that can't even wear their flipping covers!

If I am wrong tell me, because I am confused. I just learned not to even question things anymore, you always get a smart-alec answer.

Response by CW4 Scott Hyde made Jun 19 at 2016 4:30 PM

2016-06-19T16:30:35-04:00

You must be under cover at all times. Your hat is a cover, the roof is a cover, your fart sack is a cover, and so on. We spend too much time getting bent out of shape over dumb stuff and spending more time trying to get around the rules. Stop making simple things hard.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2016 4:37 PM

2016-06-19T16:37:55-04:00

Isn't it nice that this is what we have to worry about?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2016 4:57 PM

2016-06-19T16:57:42-04:00

There is no such thing as cover mentioned in 670-1 when outside. Your head gear is to be worn when outside.

Response by SGT Tony Clifford made Jun 19 at 2016 5:21 PM

2016-06-19T17:21:05-04:00

I would play it safe as the idea of outdoor is always open to interpretation. If the command implies that it is alright to consider overhead cover as indoors than I assume that you're safe to act accordingly.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2016 5:35 PM

2016-06-19T17:35:02-04:00

The most common scenario I've seen is filling up gas at the shoppette. The Soldier will not wear headgear stating they're under cover. On the spot corrections will fix this.
Two exceptions is we don't normally wear headgear when conducting PRT in ACUs and I don't let my subordinates wear PCs while in kit. If you're in kit, you wear your ACH. No issue dropping the helmet for a short period of time. You want to wear your PC, you drop kit.
Something I was taught long ago. In the 90s 2/75 would wear IBA with ballistic helmet and when it was time to drop helmet, they'd downgrade to boonie/PC with their LBE/LCE. Later into the 00s, when we put on kit the beret went away; and we'd never wear beret with camo on our face. So I still enforce the basic that when you put on kit, the PC goes away.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2016 7:52 PM

2016-06-19T19:52:45-04:00

They have areas with signs that explicitly state "uncovered area", and it's typically appropriate to take off your cover in designated smoking areas in billeting areas.

Response by SFC John Hill made Jun 19 at 2016 9:31 PM

2016-06-19T21:31:23-04:00

There are designated "no head gear" areas (i.e. flight line, Post specified locations), these are exceptions to policy. Sort of like the designated "no salute" zones.

Response by Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 23 at 2018 9:41 AM

2018-06-23T09:41:04-04:00

For the marine corps it’s if u have a roof over your head not a tree or something like that you can take your cover off

Response by SPC Anthony Brown made Jun 12 at 2019 7:18 PM

2019-06-12T19:18:25-04:00

Has AR 670-1 changed or does The Army Band at Fort Myer, VA have some sort of exemption to the head gear rule while outside? I just watched a video of the US Army Band performing outside and under a open tent for the Old Gaurd Twilight Tattoo show. Not a single member of the US Army band had head gear on. I came across this conversation while trying to research this as a veteran now.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2024 6:49 PM

2024-08-18T18:49:55-04:00

I wanted to say yes. But lately I have even seen people wear them in parking garages so I don't know. If other people have theirs on, I just put mine on.

Response by SFC Kelly Fuerhoff made Aug 19 at 2024 11:19 AM

2024-08-19T11:19:34-04:00

AR 670-1:

l. Soldiers will wear headgear with the Army uniform, except under the following circumstances:
(1) Headgear is not required if it would interfere with the safe operation of military vehicles. Wearing military headgear is not required while in or on a privately owned vehicle (to include a motorcycle, bicycle, or convertible automobile), a commercial vehicle, or on public conveyance (such as a subway, train, plane, or bus).
(2) Soldiers will not wear headgear indoors, unless under arms in an official capacity, or when directed by the commander, such as for indoor ceremonial activities.
(3) Male and female Soldiers are not required to wear headgear to evening social events (after retreat) when wearing the Army service and dress uniforms or the mess and evening mess uniforms.
(4) Soldiers will carry their headgear, when it is not worn, in their hands while wearing service, dress, mess, and evening mess uniforms. Soldiers are authorized storage of the headgear, when it is not worn, in the Class C uniform cargo pockets, if applicable. Soldiers must fold the headgear neatly so as not to present a bulky appearance. They may also elect to store it at the small of the back, with the bill tucked in the belt, provided there is no bulky appearance and the headgear remains hidden from view. Soldiers will not attach headgear to the uniform or hang it from the belt.

That's what's in the reg. Also if it says "no salute, no cover area' you don't have to salute or wear a cover. I believe that they have made that for all CDCs that the outside of CDC and parking lots are no salute, no cover areas. They did at JBLM before I left. But they didn't advertise it too well. There was a sign I finally noticed at the front door.

Aw f* this is an old post...but things have changed since 2013.

Response by 1SG(P) Dean Mcbride (MPER) (SPHR) made Aug 19 at 2024 11:21 PM

2024-08-19T23:21:54-04:00

CSM Mike Maynard Great post on the question of "What stuff have you been told or heard"? This forum is a thesis of and epitomizes the "What have you been told" question! I have seen enough incorrect quotes of regulations that it make me cringe to read anything!