Posted on Nov 12, 2015
‘Elite’ military units: Army Rangers. I just read a soldier didn't have to go to Ranger School to be a Ranger. Is that true?
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This is from this article written by an Ex-Ranger. Some of the things he has written are confusing to me. Yesterday at our Veterans Day lunch I met a guy, wearing a leather vest with all of the Ranger tabs and the pins and buttons associated with the 75th Rangers. He said he was a LRRP, and got assigned to a Ranger unit, but never went to Ranger school. He said it was more like OJT. He didn't have Jump Wings. He did have the three medals a Vietnam veteran received, plus an Air Medal, but said he rarely flew in a helicopter, and when he did it was an H-13 scout helicopter.
For all of you Rangers out there, I'm asking if this guy could be for real or is an embellisher. He had a book written by a "friend" about his tour with the Rangers. It was inscribed to this guy and he showed us a page in the book, with, he says is his picture. lt was black and white, and faded. The guy he showed us was supposed to be him, didn't look anything like him. He talked a lot about his tour. He said their AO was in AnKhe. I got suspicious when he didn't answer some questions I asked about AnKhe. I hope I'm wrong. He seemed like a nice guy.
From the authors article:
Some who did serve in Ranger units never attended Ranger School and some who graduated from Ranger School, like me, never served in a Ranger unit. Ranger School graduation is not a prerequisite for serving in a Ranger unit, but it is a prerequisite for serving in a leadership position in a Ranger unit.
The Link:
http://johntreed.com/blogs/john-t-reed-s-blog-about-military-matters/65802307-elite-military-units-army-rangers
For all of you Rangers out there, I'm asking if this guy could be for real or is an embellisher. He had a book written by a "friend" about his tour with the Rangers. It was inscribed to this guy and he showed us a page in the book, with, he says is his picture. lt was black and white, and faded. The guy he showed us was supposed to be him, didn't look anything like him. He talked a lot about his tour. He said their AO was in AnKhe. I got suspicious when he didn't answer some questions I asked about AnKhe. I hope I'm wrong. He seemed like a nice guy.
From the authors article:
Some who did serve in Ranger units never attended Ranger School and some who graduated from Ranger School, like me, never served in a Ranger unit. Ranger School graduation is not a prerequisite for serving in a Ranger unit, but it is a prerequisite for serving in a leadership position in a Ranger unit.
The Link:
http://johntreed.com/blogs/john-t-reed-s-blog-about-military-matters/65802307-elite-military-units-army-rangers
Vietnam War
Camp Radcliff
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 38
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I think today, they must be Airborne to be in the Regiments and one does not have to go to Ranger School to be in one of the Regiments...at least in the lower ranks.
I know it was...is (?)...possible to go to attend Ranger School without being Airborne.
I know it was...is (?)...possible to go to attend Ranger School without being Airborne.
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MSG Brad Sand
SGT (Join to see)
Excellent question. The first thing is, are you talking about the fighting unit or are you talking about the school? If you are talking about the unit, then there is not much point in non-airborne Rangers. If you are speaking of the school, there are plenty of reason why one could use advanced Light Infantry training without the need of Airborne training.
No, the Rangers are not the Army's Seals any more than the Seals are the Navy's Delta Force...well that is actually a bad comparison? Rangers are elite Light Infantry. Rangers are not really designed to fight in team, squad or section sized elements, they can, but this not their design. One primary mission for the Rangers is to seize and hold airfields. The Rangers are the troops that go in when the military planners say, 'No, that is safe because no one can climb the cliffs of Point du Hoc...we do not need additional troops there.'
Excellent question. The first thing is, are you talking about the fighting unit or are you talking about the school? If you are talking about the unit, then there is not much point in non-airborne Rangers. If you are speaking of the school, there are plenty of reason why one could use advanced Light Infantry training without the need of Airborne training.
No, the Rangers are not the Army's Seals any more than the Seals are the Navy's Delta Force...well that is actually a bad comparison? Rangers are elite Light Infantry. Rangers are not really designed to fight in team, squad or section sized elements, they can, but this not their design. One primary mission for the Rangers is to seize and hold airfields. The Rangers are the troops that go in when the military planners say, 'No, that is safe because no one can climb the cliffs of Point du Hoc...we do not need additional troops there.'
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SGT (Join to see)
MSG Brad Sand, I was talking about him in combat in Vietnam in 1970-1971. Here's his picture.
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Yes SGT (Join to see) one of my sons who was a junior enlisted infantry soldier went through the RIP was assigned to 3/75 Ranger Battalion. NCO's and Commissioned Officers within the Ranger Battalions are required to be Ranger School graduates; but, junior enlisted soldiers are not required. They need to complete the RIP program in order to be assigned to a Ranger Battalion.
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COL Sam Russell
That is correct. Junior enlisted soldiers in the 75th Ranger Regiment or one of its three battalions don't get the opportunity to attend Ranger school until they have been through the Ranger Indoctrination Program or RIP. Where the original post says he had "all of the Ranger tabs and the pins and buttons associated with the 75th Rangers," I assume he means ranger scrolls, not tabs. There is only one ranger tab--"black and gold in a half moon shape" as the cadence goes--but the patch for a ranger unit is a black and red scroll, unless from WWII when the ranger patch was a blue diamond with a gold outline. Above is a board of Vietnam era ranger scrolls, with the coveted ranger tab in the upper center. Incidentally, I am ranger qualified, that is I have graduated from the Ranger course and been awarded a ranger tab, but have never been assigned to a ranger unit. I had a number of fellow squad/platoon members in my ranger class that were attending the course from their assignment in a ranger unit. We called them Bat' Boys because they were from a ranger battalion. In other words, they were assigned to a ranger unit and wore a ranger scroll without being ranger school qualified. All were junior enlisted. If the unit is deployed, as ranger units often are, they do not have the manpower to leave at home any of their junior soldiers who are not ranger school qualified but are otherwise fully deployable and combat ready. Thus there are instances when a soldier had been assigned to a ranger unit, earned a ranger scroll as a combat patch, but never attended ranger school and was not authorized a ranger tab. That happens today, that happened in Somalia, and I'm sure it happened in Vietnam. Doesn't mean the vet in question wasn't embellishing, but it also doesn't mean he was.
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SGT (Join to see)
LTC Stephen F., COL Sam Russell, Thank you both for your replies. I'm still in the dark if this guy was real or fake.
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Air Medal [Army] (1968-2006)[edit]
During the Vietnam War, the US Army awarded the Air Medal to Warrant Officer or Commissioned pilots and enlisted aircrew for actual flight time (awards were also made to infantry troops who flew on combat assault missions). This became a bureaucratic nightmare to correctly log because of the short flight time of typical helicopter flights. Later, an equivalent "flight hours" conversion was created and an award standard was set by individual commands. This eventually was standardized in theater to one award per every 24 "flight hours" logged.[7] A simplified set time was awarded depending on the type of mission, regardless of the actual flight time.[7] Administrative or VIP flights counted for 1/4 hour, regular duties (such as Visual Reconnaissance or Resupply) counted for 1/2 hour, and hazardous duties (combat assaults or extractions) counted for 1 hour. Pilots and aircrew could log over 1,000 "flight hours" a year and earn a 40 or higher numeral on their Air Medal ribbon. This was changed on 11 December 2006 to six months of meritorious service instead the number of flight hours.
So right there I am a little cautious about his accuracy about the Air Medal. As for the LRRP:
In February 1969, all US Army LRRP units were folded into the newly formed 75th Infantry Regiment (Ranger), a predecessor of the 75th Ranger Regiment, bringing back operational Ranger units for the first time since the Korean War. The Army had disbanded Ranger units after Korea, but kept Ranger School, on the premise that spreading Ranger School graduates throughout the Army would improve overall performance. The initial Ranger companies formed in 1969 were: "A" V Corps Rangers, Fort Hood, Texas; "B" VII Corps Rangers, Fort Lewis, Washington; "C" I Field Forces, Vietnam; "D" II Field Forces, Vietnam; "E" 9th Infantry Division, Vietnam; F 25th Infantry Division, Vietnam; "G" 23rd Infantry Division, Vietnam; "H" 1st Cavalry Division, Vietnam; "I" 1st Infantry Division, Vietnam; "K" 4th Infantry Division, Vietnam; "L" 101st Airborne Division, Vietnam; "M" 199th Light Infantry Brigade, Vietnam; "N" 173rd Airborne Brigade, Vietnam; "O" 3rd Brigade, 82nd Airborne Division, Vietnam; "P" 1st Brigade, 5th Infantry Division (Mechanized), Vietnam; "D/151" Indiana National Guard; and "F/425 " Michigan National Guard.[19][1]
BUT....If he did not attend the Ranger School, then he certainly could have been assigned to a Ranger unit, but he CERTAINLY should not be wearing that tab...even if it is on just a leather vest.
During the Vietnam War, the US Army awarded the Air Medal to Warrant Officer or Commissioned pilots and enlisted aircrew for actual flight time (awards were also made to infantry troops who flew on combat assault missions). This became a bureaucratic nightmare to correctly log because of the short flight time of typical helicopter flights. Later, an equivalent "flight hours" conversion was created and an award standard was set by individual commands. This eventually was standardized in theater to one award per every 24 "flight hours" logged.[7] A simplified set time was awarded depending on the type of mission, regardless of the actual flight time.[7] Administrative or VIP flights counted for 1/4 hour, regular duties (such as Visual Reconnaissance or Resupply) counted for 1/2 hour, and hazardous duties (combat assaults or extractions) counted for 1 hour. Pilots and aircrew could log over 1,000 "flight hours" a year and earn a 40 or higher numeral on their Air Medal ribbon. This was changed on 11 December 2006 to six months of meritorious service instead the number of flight hours.
So right there I am a little cautious about his accuracy about the Air Medal. As for the LRRP:
In February 1969, all US Army LRRP units were folded into the newly formed 75th Infantry Regiment (Ranger), a predecessor of the 75th Ranger Regiment, bringing back operational Ranger units for the first time since the Korean War. The Army had disbanded Ranger units after Korea, but kept Ranger School, on the premise that spreading Ranger School graduates throughout the Army would improve overall performance. The initial Ranger companies formed in 1969 were: "A" V Corps Rangers, Fort Hood, Texas; "B" VII Corps Rangers, Fort Lewis, Washington; "C" I Field Forces, Vietnam; "D" II Field Forces, Vietnam; "E" 9th Infantry Division, Vietnam; F 25th Infantry Division, Vietnam; "G" 23rd Infantry Division, Vietnam; "H" 1st Cavalry Division, Vietnam; "I" 1st Infantry Division, Vietnam; "K" 4th Infantry Division, Vietnam; "L" 101st Airborne Division, Vietnam; "M" 199th Light Infantry Brigade, Vietnam; "N" 173rd Airborne Brigade, Vietnam; "O" 3rd Brigade, 82nd Airborne Division, Vietnam; "P" 1st Brigade, 5th Infantry Division (Mechanized), Vietnam; "D/151" Indiana National Guard; and "F/425 " Michigan National Guard.[19][1]
BUT....If he did not attend the Ranger School, then he certainly could have been assigned to a Ranger unit, but he CERTAINLY should not be wearing that tab...even if it is on just a leather vest.
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MSG (Join to see)
SSG Warren Swan - In regards to wearing ACU's:
According to AR 670-1: 4–3. Occasions for wear
a. All-purpose wear. Some versions of the combat uniform are not intended for wear as an all-purpose uniform. The
combat uniform is designed to be worn under body armor.
b. Approved wear.
(1) The combat uniform is prescribed for year-round wear for all Soldiers, unless otherwise directed by the
commander. Soldiers may wear the combat uniform off-post, unless prohibited by the commander.
(2) Soldiers may wear the combat uniform for commercial travel per paragraph 3–7b through c.
c. Restrictions on wear.
(1) Personnel may not wear the combat uniform in off-post establishments that primarily sell alcohol for consumption
on the premises. If the off-post establishment sells alcohol and food for consumption on the premises, Soldiers
may not wear the combat uniform if their activities in the establishment center on the drinking of alcohol.
(2) The combat uniform is not normally considered appropriate for social or official functions off the installation,
such as memorial services, funerals, weddings, inaugurals, patriotic ceremonies, and similar functions.
(3) Commanders may further restrict wear of the combat uniform per paragraph 2–6c.
d. Organizational and equipment. The commander may prescribe organizational and individual equipment items in
accordance with CTA 50–900 when the combat uniform is prescribed for parades, reviews, and ceremonies.
This does not specify yay or nay for retirees.
As for the DUI: You can still wear the DUI associated with your very last unit you were active in if you were to wear the beret. If you wear it in civilians, then it should be placed on the lapel or breast pocket.
in regards to RETIRED patch when in uniform:
23–3. Retired personnel
a. See AR 670–1 for general wear of the Army uniform by retired personnel.
b. Retired personnel not on active duty are not authorized to wear SSI, except as follows:
(1) Personnel performing instructor duties at an educational institution conducting courses of instruction approved
by the Armed Forces will wear the SSI of the command that is responsible for the course of instruction. Senior and
junior ROTC instructors will wear the Cadet Command SSI on their left shoulder (see AR 145–1 and 145–2 for wear
of the uniform by senior and junior ROTC instructors, respectively).
(2) Retired personnel are authorized to wear the SSI for U.S. Army retirees on the left shoulder of the green service
uniform. The insignia consists of a white cloth disc with a blue border, and an inner white disc with a red border, which bears a blue and white adaptation of the coat of arms of the United States. The outer disk that surrounds the coat
of arms contains the inscription “UNITED STATES ARMY” in red letters at the top, and the word “RETIRED” in
blue letters at the bottom (see fig 23–1). On the blue service and dress uniforms, retired personnel will wear the retired
service ID badge (see para 22–17d(13) and fig 22–79).
Figure 23–1. Shoulder sleeve insignia, retirees
(3) Retired personnel may wear the SSI–FWTS on the right shoulder of the green service uniform if they were
authorized wear of the SSI–FWTS while on active duty (see para 21–17). On the blue service and dress uniforms,
retired personnel may wear the combat service
So, based on what I can find, there is not an exact hook and loop patch for the RETIRED patch, but their is a sew on for the old greens and a pin disk for the ASUs.
As for how the MPs used to wear their dress pants bloused in the boots, that has gone the way of to DoDo bird. Have to straight leg it with dress shoes.
According to AR 670-1: 4–3. Occasions for wear
a. All-purpose wear. Some versions of the combat uniform are not intended for wear as an all-purpose uniform. The
combat uniform is designed to be worn under body armor.
b. Approved wear.
(1) The combat uniform is prescribed for year-round wear for all Soldiers, unless otherwise directed by the
commander. Soldiers may wear the combat uniform off-post, unless prohibited by the commander.
(2) Soldiers may wear the combat uniform for commercial travel per paragraph 3–7b through c.
c. Restrictions on wear.
(1) Personnel may not wear the combat uniform in off-post establishments that primarily sell alcohol for consumption
on the premises. If the off-post establishment sells alcohol and food for consumption on the premises, Soldiers
may not wear the combat uniform if their activities in the establishment center on the drinking of alcohol.
(2) The combat uniform is not normally considered appropriate for social or official functions off the installation,
such as memorial services, funerals, weddings, inaugurals, patriotic ceremonies, and similar functions.
(3) Commanders may further restrict wear of the combat uniform per paragraph 2–6c.
d. Organizational and equipment. The commander may prescribe organizational and individual equipment items in
accordance with CTA 50–900 when the combat uniform is prescribed for parades, reviews, and ceremonies.
This does not specify yay or nay for retirees.
As for the DUI: You can still wear the DUI associated with your very last unit you were active in if you were to wear the beret. If you wear it in civilians, then it should be placed on the lapel or breast pocket.
in regards to RETIRED patch when in uniform:
23–3. Retired personnel
a. See AR 670–1 for general wear of the Army uniform by retired personnel.
b. Retired personnel not on active duty are not authorized to wear SSI, except as follows:
(1) Personnel performing instructor duties at an educational institution conducting courses of instruction approved
by the Armed Forces will wear the SSI of the command that is responsible for the course of instruction. Senior and
junior ROTC instructors will wear the Cadet Command SSI on their left shoulder (see AR 145–1 and 145–2 for wear
of the uniform by senior and junior ROTC instructors, respectively).
(2) Retired personnel are authorized to wear the SSI for U.S. Army retirees on the left shoulder of the green service
uniform. The insignia consists of a white cloth disc with a blue border, and an inner white disc with a red border, which bears a blue and white adaptation of the coat of arms of the United States. The outer disk that surrounds the coat
of arms contains the inscription “UNITED STATES ARMY” in red letters at the top, and the word “RETIRED” in
blue letters at the bottom (see fig 23–1). On the blue service and dress uniforms, retired personnel will wear the retired
service ID badge (see para 22–17d(13) and fig 22–79).
Figure 23–1. Shoulder sleeve insignia, retirees
(3) Retired personnel may wear the SSI–FWTS on the right shoulder of the green service uniform if they were
authorized wear of the SSI–FWTS while on active duty (see para 21–17). On the blue service and dress uniforms,
retired personnel may wear the combat service
So, based on what I can find, there is not an exact hook and loop patch for the RETIRED patch, but their is a sew on for the old greens and a pin disk for the ASUs.
As for how the MPs used to wear their dress pants bloused in the boots, that has gone the way of to DoDo bird. Have to straight leg it with dress shoes.
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MSG (Join to see)
SSG Warren Swan - And, apologies for taking so long to get your answer. had to stab people in between looking up the regs in AR and DA PAM 670-1
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SSG Warren Swan
MSG (Join to see) - No worries Staff. Thanks for checking for me. It's still clear as mud, but I can work with it.
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MSG (Join to see)
SSG Warren Swan - How I have seen many a former and retired military folk here and other places, if they wear the duty uniform....as long as they look right and not a soggy scheisse sammich then its all good. In regards to the dress uniform, again, as long as they still follow the regs then it is all gravy.....even if they don't wear the retired badge. And if they don't, I will always be ready to give them "friendly" advice on how to fix themselves.
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I never was a Ranger, but it sounds fishy to me. If you have his name and info send it to Stolen Valor and they will check him out and see if he is legit or not.
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SGT (Join to see)
SPC Tony Fewell, Yeah, I sent an email to a buddy who brought him to lunch. Waiting to hear back.
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COL Jon Thompson
SGT (Join to see) - People who served in Ranger Companies in the Korean War are authorized to wear the tab. This is what got COL David Hackworth in trouble because he was not technically in a Ranger Company but thought he was authorized to wear the tab. This came out after he called out the Chief of Naval Operations for wearing an unauthorized ribbon. The CNO committed suicide and COL Hackworth got some of the blame for that.
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1SG David Lopez
SSG Scott, how could you say anything negative about this guy, and you have NO CLUE about Ranger History. Vietman Veteran Rangers are RANGERS. They also had a Recondo/mini-Ranger Course in Vietnam, how would you know if he did not attend. Also, just the fact that he served in a Ranger/LRRP Unit, qualifies him as a Ranger legitimately. To serve in a Ranger Unit during a combat tour definately earns a man to be forever known as a Ranger. Another fact that I'm sure you are learning is that there are many Rangers that are not Airborne qualified. People should not put down others unless they have the facts.
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SSG Audwin Scott
1SG David Lopez - If you will notice I said " It seems like a scam to me" I also noted that I am not a Ranger, so never once did I come out and state that he wasn't a Ranger. I can't speak on it because for one I am not or never will be a Ranger. The post was made so SGT Bodine to get an understanding just like the rest of us that don't know.
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SSG Audwin Scott
MSG (Join to see) - Thank you for addressing it. I didn't know and I appreciate the knowledge of now knowing.
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Just for the record I did some background work on Ray Allen. He is a real as them come. He was a LRRP and then a K company Ranger when they became the 75th. From what I found out only the senior leadership went to Ranger School. But soldiers that served in VN knew him by name. So he is the real deal. A lot of times it is hard to explain the transition of the LRRPs to the 75th.
The patch he is wearing is a custom unit patch the 4th ID LRRPs had. They are the only ones that used it and the only ones that knew about it. I didn't know of it. So for someone to have that patch it would pretty much mean he was there when they made it. It isn't something you buy online. It is a custom patch that the guys who were there only have.
The patch he is wearing is a custom unit patch the 4th ID LRRPs had. They are the only ones that used it and the only ones that knew about it. I didn't know of it. So for someone to have that patch it would pretty much mean he was there when they made it. It isn't something you buy online. It is a custom patch that the guys who were there only have.
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SGT (Join to see)
Once again CPT (Join to see), I really appreciate the help. I'll feel honored the next time we meet for lunch. I'll tell him about my suspicions, and I was so wrong, and I'm sorry for doubting him. Thanks. I'm glad I can put this behind me.
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Ok. In this picture, he is at a reunion. He has Tee on with a "No Tab" logo. In this one, he is in Vietnam. At the restaurant his vest was full of scrolls and patches, and his vest had Ranger tabs and his cap says he is a Ranger. So, is he embellishing or not?
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1SG David Lopez
SGT Bodine, if the shoe fits, wear it. I apologize if I assumed more from your post and conversations; but there is quite a lot of assumptions on this posting.
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SGT (Join to see)
1SG David Lopez, What do you mean if the shoe fits? I apologized to RP. I put the question out for someone who knows more than me about the Ranger program in the Nam days. My question was answered, and it's a moot question now. I have my right to suspect anyone of embellishing. I never questioned whether he was in the Military. You'd be surprised at how many embellishers I've flushed out. Anytime anyone wants to look at my war record, bring it on.
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1SG David Lopez
I did not see your apology; frankly I was disgusted with what I did read. Honestly, I did not read all postings. So be it.
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SGT (Join to see)
Thank You LT Eric Rosa; others should not jump to conclusins. Your words, not mine. So be it! White Flag, truce?
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I worked around divers and jumpers while getting a secondary MOS. But, I would never dream of identifying myself as "RECON." Can't think the basic requirement to graduate Ranger School would be waived in lieu of OJT... regardless of the time period. Sometimes, we just want to believe our fellow man is telling the truth.
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I am in no way an expert on any Special Forces but I think that guy is full of crap and he is probably old enough, Vietnam Veteran era, that people won't really question him.
From everything I heard any type of SOF unit you have to qualify in not only 1 school but multiple schools in many cases.
Again I am no expert but from what I know you don't become a Ranger through OJT.
From everything I heard any type of SOF unit you have to qualify in not only 1 school but multiple schools in many cases.
Again I am no expert but from what I know you don't become a Ranger through OJT.
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CPT (Join to see)
Just for the record he is legit. He was a LRRP for the 4th ID and then he was a scout in K co, 75th RGR. I asked about him and some that were there in VN as a LRRPs knew him by name.
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SGT Dave Peace
I can understand why you might be skeptical of this guy but I can verify that virtually all of the LRP/LRRPs serving in Vietnam prior to Jan ’69 became scrolled Rangers overnight… via OJT. Same mission, just new designation. I cannot speak for the 4th ID LRRPs or many of the other LRRP detachments/platoons that operated during the Vietnam war but I can say that for F Co. (LRP) 51st INF… airborne qualification was a prerequisite for serving. (This wasn’t the case for some of the LRRP detachments). If you include MACV Recondo School (In-Country) then your estimation of more than one school would be correct in most cases. Don’t assume that this guy being old enough to be a Vietnam vet gives him a pass on being questioned about his service claims. We vet our guys pretty hard… but in his case, he is legit.
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CPT (Join to see)
I posted about him. He is the real deal. I asked about him and they knew him by name. He is a BAMF to be honest.
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CPT (Join to see)
Bad Ass Mother F#####. To be a LRRP and/or Ranger in NAM took a special type of person. These guys just didn't go on patrol they would go out into the enemy's back yard and fight their way out. I have read various books about these tales. It I pretty hard to find a LRRP.
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