Double Standards for senior and junior ranks?

2014-02-07T21:19:21-05:00

Whats your opinion on military double standard? For example, Im a SPC(P) and if I was to fail a height/weight I would be flagged and barred, plus I'd lose my promotable status. If a SFC or MSG was to have the same scenario, would they face the same repercussions? Do you believe standards should be enforced Army wide regardless of rank?

Another example, theres a MSG I know that got a DUI after his SFAAT mission and his only being "forced retired". I would like to hear other peoples opinions on this.

Response by SFC Stephen P. made Feb 7 at 2014 9:58 PM

2014-02-07T21:58:33-05:00

I bet you a shiny nickle I could pull up a roster of at least 100 SFCs and MSGs with K or J flags.

If a SPC had 20 qualifying years of service, I suspect he would be forced to retire as well. We just don't see a whole lot of SPCs with 20 years TIS.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2014 10:00 PM

2014-02-07T22:00:41-05:00

SPC I always go by do what your rank can handle...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2014 10:33 PM

2014-02-07T22:33:05-05:00

Of course everybody believes there should be no double standards in regards to rank. Anybody who thinks otherwise should reread the Army Values. Having said that, will it ever change in the Army, society, or pretty much anywhere? Doubt it.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2014 10:41 PM

2014-02-07T22:41:47-05:00

If the SFC or MSG were promotable sure they would lose their status, the difference between a SFC/MSG and you is it takes a letter to HRC requesting to remove their status unlike with E5/E4Ps it takes a simple counseling statement and unit action. As in your other scenario of the MSG being forced to retire, is that not punishment enough? Do you thinks the MSG should be busted down and then kicked out?

Each installation handles punishing all who receive a DUI differently but most CGs reserve the right to punish the soldier through a General Officer Memorandum of Reprimand which can be filed in a soldiers permanent file and that serves as the punishment. Again, units do things different. Some follow that DUI up with an Administrative Reduction Board for NCOs or reduction 4187 for E4 and below.

Each soldier's infraction and the punishment given must be weighed differently because not every situation is exactly the same. There are numerous other personal and professional issues that are examined when recommending to the commander what punishment that soldier truly deserves, to include weighing in their service record.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2014 11:42 PM

2014-02-07T23:42:33-05:00

SPC Hidalgo,

While I DEFINITELY understand where you're coming from and know exactly who you're talking about, I will say this. Double standards exist, and will continue to exist.

Whether that reason is legitimate or not doesn't matter, because all decisions are made by the Commander on a case by case basis.

Based solely off "importance", when a SPC gets a DUI, he gets the hammer and out he goes...why? Because typically, the SPC KNOWS better. The SPC gets safety brief EVERY.SINGLE.WEEKEND. The Commander is 9 out of 10 focusing and speaking to that SPC or E-4 and below. When was the last time you hear your Commander say "Hey SFC, hey MSG, hey 1SG, don't do dumb sh*t, wrap it up, don't drink and drive"..it doesn't happen. Because that Senior NCO has more or less proven that he doesn't need to be "briefed" on what not to do on the weekend. So when that Senior DOES mess up, they're given a "Hey SFC/MSG/1SG, ya messed up. You knew better, you were supposed to set the example, but you failed. Love ya like a play cousin, but its time to go" Which, if you think about it, more than likely will come with a GOMAR, and that big DUI stamp on his/her DD214..so it actually hurts them more when they go looking for work. Think about..1SG with 18 years TIS with nothing to show for it once that DUI is on his DD214.

Also, the reason you will never see a senior get the same punishment as a Joe, is because the senior and the non senior ARE different. They don't want the Joe to lose respect for SFC XYZ just because he messed up..Look at it this way, if you and I are extra duty, and Im a SGT who got ED for the same reason you did. You would subconsciously disrespect me because in your (or Joes) mind, we are equal now..

Response by 1SG Calanski Brunson made Feb 8 at 2014 10:52 AM

2014-02-08T10:52:32-05:00

I just seen a 1SG have his diamond removed and be flagged for being overweight. It happens in the senior ranks just because you do not see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. That 1SG got off the program but he didn't get his job back; now he is retiring. He has served his country 20+ years and wanted to do more but now he has to hang it up.

Response by 1SG Michael Minton made Feb 8 at 2014 3:04 PM

2014-02-08T15:04:04-05:00

forced to retire is ending his career, same as a SPC with a bar to re-enlist, your career is over. he's just fortunate enough to have over 20 years in to have the option to retire or take a chance on being QMP'd. Nobody i single dui under the UCMJ, but they will end your career ambitions. so that pretty much forces him to retire since he has already met that qualification and the UCMJ does not present it. And i dont know where you were at, but senior ncos do get flagged if they are over weight or fails APFT, however, flags are local and removed once standards are met.

Response by 1SG Michael Minton made Feb 8 at 2014 3:23 PM

2014-02-08T15:23:34-05:00

there is no double standard, AR 600-9 spells out in black and white what MUST happen. It may not be advertised to the unit, but that dont mean actions havent been taken.

Response by SSG Charles Coats made Feb 8 at 2014 3:56 PM

2014-02-08T15:56:02-05:00

SPC (P) Hildago,

I am familiar with the senario which you're speaking of; I have seen many senior enlisted/officers who are OBVIOUSLY overweight and to the point where their appearance should have demanded attention from the commander. With that being said, there is also the "sanctuary rule" some have mentioned here, and also the service members record and years of service.

I think one of the sticking points for junior soldiers is to continually see those who are clearly not within the guidelines but still make rank and suffer no reprisals. I also think the adage: "Different spanks for different ranks" applies more to NCO's vs. Officers than among the enlisted ranks themselves.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2014 4:09 PM

2014-02-08T16:09:45-05:00

Has anyone mentioned re-education? IF it's a first offense, shouldn't one be afforded the chance to redeem themselves. This goes for all ranks. Obviously, there has to be a punishment but it should include rehab and a chance to change.

Response by SSG Charles Coats made Feb 9 at 2014 8:07 AM

2014-02-09T08:07:48-05:00

SPC (P) Hildago,

While this may be an extreme example (but is certainly not an outlier) and is not related to PT/HT/WT, it serves to underscore the overall point you're trying to make:

http://www.armytimes.com/article/20120701/NEWS/207010309/Colonel-s-sentence-bigamy-case-draws-outrage

Response by SFC Randy Purham made Feb 9 at 2014 8:22 AM

2014-02-09T08:22:49-05:00

I concur with 1SG Rink's response. However, I would consider that person's service to the military in consideration and other factors, such as the overall situation and the state-of-mind of the individual. Now, in terms of it being a double standard across the board, YES. There is, in fact there's a triple standard, because Officers fall into a different realm of punishments than enlisted do. There should be an overarching categories of punishments for infractions that are fitting across the board and instead of it being up to units on how they handle it - which leaves room for continued behavior in follow on assignments - would streamline the perception of favoritism and "getting off the hook". Situations like DUIs, SHARP/EO, and Drugs should remain to intolerable and unacceptable acts in which the person has conscientiously decided to error in and should be punished IAW UCMJ guidelines - regardless of service tenure. APFT, HT/WT and other administrative infractions of that nature should be unified - once again, regardless of rank/time served.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 14 at 2014 1:25 AM

2014-03-14T01:25:43-04:00

am sure you have heard of RHIP but that is not a good example of leadership to be out of shape and being cavalier about it. I cannot imagine a Senior NCO being marginal. If they are true leaders they lead by example. I was very athletic and personally felt expectations should be higher for us NCOs and not think that RHIP is a good role model.

So my answer is that they should be tip top and I bet I could beat most older NCOs in fitness.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Mar 16 at 2014 4:43 PM

2014-03-16T16:43:06-04:00

How to put this gently....

The average SPC will have two to four years experience. Maybe one or two deployments, minimal schooling, minimal education, minimal experience...

That SFC or MSG will likely have triple to quadruple your experience, schooling, education and training. To put it bluntly, they are worth more to the Army than five of you. The loss of a senior NCO eliminates countless years of investment. A SPC has thousands of youngsters ready to take his place at a moments notice. In short, expendable and interchangeable.

To use a sports analogy, it's like comparing your bat boy to your all star...

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2015 12:18 AM

2015-02-27T00:18:28-05:00

I know of several officers that have been flagged for failing a PT test. Is it perfect? No, but it depends on the unit.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Mar 2 at 2015 9:42 AM

2015-03-02T09:42:00-05:00

They would and should. I believe the standards should be enforced, but there also needs to be a level of common sense applied as well.

The example of the MSG with the DUI, he was forced to retire...what more would you want to happen? Is it your opinion that getting a DUI should have caused the Army to discount his 20 plus years of service? Sergeant, some people think I'm hard, but I do not have anything on you?

Response by SSG Charles Holleran made Feb 2 at 2016 7:15 PM

2016-02-02T19:15:37-05:00

I think that those at the highr ranks and positions should be held to the standards no matter what.

Response by MSG Frank Kapaun made May 13 at 2018 9:59 AM

2018-05-13T09:59:11-04:00

It was my observation that officers, especially O4s and above were allowed to get away with some sketchy shit. The CSM/SGM rank was also a protected class and allowed to get away with damn near anything.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made May 13 at 2018 11:46 AM

2018-05-13T11:46:05-04:00

They are- I have seen it, where MSG's took retirement rather than get barred. Of course you do understand that the older you get the easy it is have a profile, right?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 22 at 2018 7:07 PM

2018-06-22T19:07:21-04:00

The standards apply to ALL ranks and they will be flagged if not.
Regarding that MSG's DUI, I am quite sure he is getting article 15 in addition to GOMAR; pretty much impossible to retire. He may be busted all the way down to private but you can't see that.
Just what you saw isn't the same as what he actually gets.