Does wearing just one piece of a uniform equal being out of uniform?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Dec 2013 21:19:35 -0500

I was at the gym with my soldier and he was wearing his army PT shirt with civilian shorts. When we were about to leave a SGT from another unit told him that he was violating regs. The PFC tried to explain that he was not in uniform because he was only wearing the shirt. The SGT again said it is out of regs. I came to my soldiers defense and asked the SGT if there was a local regulation about PT wear. The SGT asked me if I was backtalking him. I said no SGT I was asking for clarification if he wanted us to look it up in AR 670-1 or if there was a local ordinance. He said look up AR 670-1, we know that our soldier was not doing anything wrong because we had looked this up before. What are your oppinions on this. I see many SGT vaguely citing regs and not knowing the exact wording of the reg itself.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2013 9:53 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Dec 2013 21:53:27 -0500

14–4. Occasions for wear
The PFU and the IPFU are authorized for wear on and off duty, on and off the installation, when authorized by the
commander. Soldiers may wear all or part of the PFU or IPFU with civilian attire off the installation, when authorized
by the commander.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2013 11:38 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Dec 2013 23:38:15 -0500

Is this supposed to be your commander or base commander?

Response by LTC Jason Bartlett made Dec 1 at 2013 11:51 PM

LTC Jason Bartlett — Sun, 01 Dec 2013 23:51:07 -0500

Most installations have local policy in the form of a Blue Book (standards book), check with the installation you are assigned to.

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Dec 2 at 2013 12:19 AM

CW2 Joseph Evans — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 00:19:54 -0500

If he was "on duty", he should be "in uniform". So, during PT hours or during duty day, if wearing part of the uniform, he should be wearing all of the uniform.<br>Local exceptions for unit shirts. Portions of the PT uniform are never suitable for wear in any installation facility except medical and gyms.<br>So, 1900 at the gym, PT shirt and civilian shorts is probably ok. 0630, probably better to be in full PT uniform. Saturday at the park with the kids, probably fine to wear the jacket, going shopping at the commissary, wear something not everyone knows gets sweaty nasty 5 days a week.<br>Unfortunately this is one of those things that is a pet peeve for some, and a little consideration for a CSMs heart palpitations will go a long way in saving some poor Soldier a lot of grief regardless of what the regs say.<br>Right now, mix and match is ok by the Army Reg, to a point and the same with most post policies. Excessive abuse of this "freedom" will of course result in stricter policies.<br>As for NCOs saying its "in the regs", I hear a lot of BS coming out of Christians mouths saying "Its in the Bible", 80% of the time, the mouthpiece hasn't even read it, doesn't mean you're going to win the argument though.<br>

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Dec 2 at 2013 12:32 AM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 00:32:43 -0500

Was he out of uniform by wearing his IPFU shirt with civilian gym style shorts? That depends on the "intent" or like the CW2 said, the time of day but it also needs to mentioned whether are not he was on personal time. Other than that, I found this:

14–4. Occasions for wear

The PFU and the IPFU are authorized for wear on and off duty, on and off the installation, when authorized by the

commander. Soldiers may wear all or part of the PFU or IPFU with civilian attire off the installation, when authorized by the commander.

AR 670-1, 3 Feb 2005.

Well that's what the reg says.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2013 8:49 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 08:49:37 -0500

<p>Although there isn't wording for or against the mixture of PT gear with civilian clothes, it bugs the hell out of me when I see the two mixed. I'm sure that your Soldier has a civilian t-shirt to go along with his civilian shorts, just as they have pt shorts to go along with his shirt. Take pride in what you wear, take pride in the uniform. When I'm off duty the last thing you are going to see me wear is a military uniform.  </p><p> </p><p>SPC, I now have a question for you regarding this. If I saw you or your Soldier in the gym in mixed attire and said to go change into full civilian or full military clothing, what would you say?  I'm sure that you would argue that the regulation doesn't specify guideance on this. And I would come back with, "Did I not just give you a lawful order?" Just to save you the time to research this, a lawful order is "an order given to you by someone appointed over you by higher authority which you are legally bound to obey and that does not require you to break the law to obey." The NCO in the gym didn't do the research on the reg and you are correct that the reg doesn't state anything in regards to the mixture of PT and civilian attire, but I wouldn't have debated with you or your Soldier. It would be a simple go change your clothes and come back when you are in a complete PT uniform or all civilian attire. Oh, and just for the record, we are "on duty" 24/7. We are Soldiers all the time, not just 0900-1700. </p><p> </p>

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Dec 2 at 2013 1:53 PM

SGT Ben Keen — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 13:53:58 -0500

Even though the AR says it is okay, I always told my Soldiers to error on the side of caution for this exact reason. Even while down range, unless my Soldiers were doing laundry, I told them it be better to maintain their uniform as a complete set. You just never know when someone might think just because he/she has a few stripes on their uniform that they now know every word in every AR. In the example given here, the SGT was out of line and I'm glad to see you stand up and ask for clarification. Great job and great learning experience for you as you get ready to be promoted.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2013 12:09 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 00:09:10 -0500

As SGT Martin quoted: "The PFU and the IPFU are authorized for wear on and off duty, on and off the installation, when authorized by the

commander. Soldiers may wear all or part of the PFU or IPFU with civilian attire off the installation, when authorized by the commander."

If I read this correctly, you MUST have AUTHORIZATION by the commander to wear your PTs off the installation... AND you MUST have AUTHORIZATION to mix PTs with civvies OFF POST... it never says you can mix them on post...

I have NEVER seen a policy letter by ANY of my chain of command, nor my garrison command group that authorized me to mix PTs with civvies, so according to the wording in the reg, I MAY NOT do so!!!

I remember being taught in basic training that the regulation should not be interpreted as a list of limitations, rather as a list of allowances... if it is not SPECIFICALLY allowed in the regulation, or by a command policy that supersedes the regulation, then it is NOT ALLOWED!!!

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2013 12:11 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 00:11:09 -0500

I agree about being professional so no one will get you into a situation where you feel the need to defend yourself, unless you are absolutely sure you are right and even then, pick your battles. As they say, "Is this the hill you want to die on?"

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2013 12:12 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 00:12:25 -0500

If there's neither a Regulation, nor a Command Policy Letter against it, then it's authorized. Simple as that.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2013 12:17 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 00:17:19 -0500

Now, as for Soldiers citing regs that may or may not exist, many fall into the trap of Unit SOPs... they have a standard at one unit, so when they move to a new unit, they just assume that the same standard applies... This, of course, is not always the case.

It is important for all of us as leaders (even the E-4 and below types) to distinguish between what IS regulation, what IS unit policy/procedure, and what we think they SHOULD be...

That being said, on the spot corrections are best done with tact and consideration. Whether you are questioning a PV2 on mixing PTs with civvies or telling the 4-star that his flag is upside down, you can discreetly approach them to address the issue. This can save both of you a lot of embarrassment - them for not being called out in front of their fellow Soldiers, and you for not making an @$$ of yourself if you are WRONG!!!

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2013 7:47 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 07:47:20 -0500

It is different throughout Army posts. For example, Joint Base Lewis McChord has a policy that states, OFF Post you may wear the APFT Shirt with civilians, but not on post.  I don't see the big deal. You are right in the fact that many like to spout off regs, but haven't actually read them beyond ArmyStudyGuide.com's board questions. Also, many of them continue to teach as they were "taught". We have to take it upon ourselves to be the leaders we want to become.

Response by SFC Stacy Harris made Dec 3 at 2013 11:20 AM

SFC Stacy Harris — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:20:19 -0500

Without knowing the full context of the situation, I'm going to make a reasonable assumption that due to the three people in this situation were military, that this occurred at an on-post gym. That said....

14–4. Occasions for wear

The PFU and the IPFU are authorized for wear on and off duty, on and off the installation, when authorized by the commander. Soldiers may wear all or part of the PFU or IPFU with civilian attire off the installation, when authorized by the commander.

AR 670-1 no where authorizes anyone to mix IPFU uniforms ON the installation.

Wear of military and civilian items.

(1) The wear of a combination of civilian and military clothing is prohibited, unless prescribed in this regulation or other authorization documents approved by HQDA.

So, even those post-level "blue books" have no authority to change the uniform guidelines unless they get HQDA approval.

Other key notes that AR 670-1 states...

In accordance with chapter 45, section 771, title 10, United States Code (10 USC 771), no person except a member of the U.S. Army may wear the uniform, or a distinctive part of the uniform of the U.S. Army unless otherwise authorized by law. Additionally, no person except a member of the U.S. Army may wear a uniform, any part of which is similar to a distinctive part of the U.S. Army uniform.

So, all those army wives wearing their husbands' uniforms are wrong.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2013 4:35 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 16:35:02 -0500

Your authority has to come from somewhere, Sergeant. If you see a violation of a regulation or policy letter, you have every right to correct that Soldier. If neither of those things are being violated, then it's just you going on a power trip. That is NOT leadership. It's taking advantage of both your rank and their ignorance of where your authority starts and stops. Just as our NCOs did to us when we were PVTs and didn't know better. Only I do know better now. You've been in long enough that you should too.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2013 4:40 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 16:40:28 -0500

WOW! Some of you need to get over yourselves. Your personal opinion doesn't mean JACK! So don't try to use your stripes to force it on others just because you can, this makes you a TOOL as apposed to a LEADER. Personally I don't see why anyone would want to wear any part of any uniform outside of work anyway. I cant wait to take off my uniform and put on some comfortable clothes.

Response by SPC Gary Basom made Dec 3 at 2013 5:19 PM

SPC Gary Basom — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 17:19:23 -0500

Wearing a pair of blue jeans and a military shirt (blouse) is being out of uniform.If you wear a uniform item, I think it must be a complete ensemble of that uniform. I believe you are even out of uniform if you do not wear your rank insignia. Now I think unit SOP states that if there is an activity that requires a mixed uniform item such as PT shirt, uniform pants and boots, or sneakers it is authorized. The Army or Navy regs or Marine regs will state what is authorized.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Dec 3 at 2013 10:35 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 22:35:46 -0500

I have a pair of flame retardant (FR) ACU pants that I took to a Taylor to modify into shorts. Now I have something that looks like I purchased from a store such as Clothing and Sales. Does anyone think that is out of line? If you do it does not make me a terrible NCO. That might be someone personal belief or ethics which are not to be confused with what is regulated.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2013 8:06 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Dec 2013 08:06:07 -0500

I'm cheap. I always wear my Army running shorts when running. I don't wear the IPFU shirts because then I would be in uniform, have to tuck it in, shave, etc. However, those shorts (and the pants) are awesome for civilian use, and I use the heck out of them. I even stocked up while deployed so that I would have a lot on the side. The regulation is clear: we can mix and match PT gear. I'm happy to do so. <div><br></div><div>Now, were I RA, and were I on a post which specifically banned such mixing and matching, then so be it. I would suck it up, and buy two or three pairs of running shorts at a stupid expensive price. </div>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2014 4:40 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Feb 2014 16:40:17 -0500

You have to look at different things though. It might not be in an Army Regulation but I am sure it is stated somewhere. The last couple of units I have been in have what is called the Blue Book. It is a book of additional standard that Soldiers in that Unit must follow. Remember a Leader can always add to but not take away. Here at JBLM we have the 7th ID blue book. It states in there you can not mix civilian and military attire. It also states that you cant take off your blouse while driving in a POV or wear a ball cap.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2014 5:13 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Feb 2014 17:13:13 -0500

I sometime wear the PT shorts (with the liner cut out of course because it sucks) with civilian exercise gear. Basically because most civilian shorts come down to my shins and because if...IF...you can find them on sale at Dick's they cost $30. that being said, it's up to the post commander to authorize mix and match when wearing the IPFU. General rule of thumb, when in doubt, if you are wearing part of the IPFU wear it all, including the dang reflective belt.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2014 5:42 PM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Feb 2014 17:42:13 -0500

Too many uniform police. As other responders have mentioned, policies vary from post to post. Either one policy for all or just let it go.

Response by SSG Zachery Mitchell made Feb 20 at 2014 9:09 AM

SSG Zachery Mitchell — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 09:09:01 -0500

<p>AR 670-1 states the following: </p><p><br></p><b><font face="Arial" size="2"><font face="Arial" size="2"><p align="LEFT">14–4. Occasions for wear</p><p align="LEFT"><br></p></font></font></b><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><p align="LEFT">The PFU and the IPFU are authorized for wear on and off duty, on and off the installation, when authorized by the commander. Soldiers may wear all or part of the PFU or IPFU with civilian attire off the installation, when authorized by the commander.</p><p align="LEFT"><br></p><p align="LEFT">Unless your unit or your installation have a written policy letter stating that it is not authorized your Soldier was not in the wrong. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wearing a PT Shirt with civilian shorts while working out at the gym. He should be telling the Soldier good job for taking the initiative to work out on his own during his free time instead of worrying about what shirt he is wearing. There are too many NCO enforcing the "standard" that don't even know what the standard is. </p><p align="LEFT"><br></p><p align="LEFT">I would print this excerpt from 670-1 and carry it with me so that way if it happens in the future you can show the SGT in black and white what the regulation says. You could even go one step further and ask your commander if he authorizes it so that you can ensure you are in the right. </p></font><p><br></p></font><p><br></p>

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2014 5:54 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Apr 2014 17:54:55 -0400

<span style="color: rgb(77, 77, 77); font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248);">670-1</span><div style="color: rgb(77, 77, 77); font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248);">paragraph 3-9</div><div style="color: rgb(77, 77, 77); font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248);"><br></div><div style="color: rgb(77, 77, 77); font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(248, 248, 248);"><div>g. Uniform items authorized for wear with civilian clothing by males are restricted to the gold cuff links, studs, tie</div><div>bar, mourning band, footwear, socks, gloves, undergarments, black bow-tie, wool scarf, all-weather coat, fleece caps,</div><div>and physical training uniforms.</div><div>h. Uniform items authorized for wear with civilian clothing by females are restricted to the white shirt without</div><div>insignia of grade, footwear, gloves, handbag, clutch purse, wool scarf, all-weather coat, fleece caps, and physical</div><div>training uniforms.</div></div>

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 25 at 2014 11:53 AM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 Apr 2014 11:53:10 -0400

I know this response won't be popular - but why not just let the guy workout and get on with life. It's not that serious and I often am annoyed with the "I know more than you" and "I want to assert my power" leadership. :)

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Apr 25 at 2014 12:00 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Fri, 25 Apr 2014 12:00:58 -0400

I have worn non serviceable PT shorts with a civilian shirt at a gym on post but I think that is different.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Apr 25 at 2014 12:05 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Fri, 25 Apr 2014 12:05:45 -0400

I am an MP. I will wear my head gear inside of a building when underarms. Sometimes this butt hurts people but they will get over it. One I am going to carry the part form AR 670-1 in my pocket that says I can wear headgear inside of a building.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 25 at 2014 11:23 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 Apr 2014 23:23:47 -0400

That sucks cause I wear tan shirts all around my house, yard, and running to the store. Pt shirts too.lol. People don't think I'm in the army anyways lol. I do it on base though

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2014 11:41 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 26 Apr 2014 11:41:10 -0400

I would do just about anything to never wear the PT or any part of the PT uniform ever again. Least functional, least user friendly athletic apperal I have ever worn.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2014 2:43 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 12 Sep 2014 14:43:48 -0400

I had an E-7 chew me out for wearing a tan T shirt with a pair of basket ball shorts while at the px. He tried to tell me I was violating AR 670-1, I polity responded SGT please read AR 670-1 para 3-9 bullets F and G. This section will tell you what is authorized for wear in/mixed with civilians.

Response by PV2 Abbott Shaull made Dec 16 at 2014 12:02 AM

PV2 Abbott Shaull — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 00:02:17 -0500

It is similar to Police Officer on the beat, many of them don't know all the laws, or are entire ignorant of Laws, like many Citizens are, once you try to inform them of the various Law code. It seems to irritate them something fierce. It like they can't seem to admit it when someone calls them out on something. We are all human, and we all make mistakes.

Many NCOs and Officers can cite regulation, like many people can throw Bible verses, and in both cases, they are vague or missing the much larger, clear picture of the Regulation or story. Same thing when people try cite the Constitution and our Founding Father intentions. Yet, it all has been twisted, I am sorry, but really arguing over the incomplete PT uniform. The only time this should be issue is during unit PT, otherwise use some common sense with it. The only reason we have PT uniform is to have everyone look the close to the same during PT as the Military can feasible do so.

Sounds like some Sergeant was nitpicking and looking for promotion.

Response by MAJ(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2015 1:44 AM

MAJ(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Jan 2015 01:44:53 -0500

We are making this harder than it needs to be. The best way to mitigate any confrontation is always be 100% in the "right." Too many individuals looking to skirt regulation guidlines based on their interpretation.

The real question is: why even chance it? Did your Soldier have no other shirt? Do you know your post's policies regarding uniform wear in on-post gyms?

My recommendation for a situation so trivial is to back up the other NCO. Since you posted the question, clearly you're not 100%.

Ii applaud your efforts to support your Soldier. However, in this instance, your actions could be interpreted as undermining an NCO senior to the situation. Next time, walk up to the situation and say, "roger, we will correct it."

Trying to better interpret a regulation or command policy with another NCO is an action you handle one-on-one; certainly not in front of subordinates.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Apr 12 at 2015 2:06 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 14:06:10 -0400

First, "back talking" is for children and teenagers. We are professionals, we do not use phrases or words like that with our subordinates. Using such phrases or words shows a lack of a proper military vocabulary. I can't take leaders seriously when they speak like that with Soldiers. Second, unless I know where the regulation is exactly and I can almost repeat it I am going to keep on walking. Obviously some rules and regulations are easy like boot strings hanging out of the boots or untucked shirts.

Response by TSgt Thomas Monaghan made Apr 12 at 2015 2:11 PM

TSgt Thomas Monaghan — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 14:11:33 -0400

INot if your retired lol

Response by SGT John Wesley made Apr 12 at 2015 4:01 PM

SGT John Wesley — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 16:01:46 -0400

Just seems a bit petty, but regs are regs... I would of told the soldier to just take off the shirt... That is one of the things that irks me about regs. It's a friggin t-shirt people! Stateside always sucked for spit shine, dog and pony crap. Sorry but let's focus on REAL issues...

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2015 4:26 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 16:26:17 -0400

Don't get it twisted there is a difference between a lawful order, and a order a NCO is giving because the feel like they are hyped up like superman! If the reg states you can mix and match! Well damnit you can mix and max! You are wrong if because you don't like what the regulations saying to tell a jr member to go change. By you doing that you are killing good order and discipline all because your an NCO and you want to prove a point that you have the authority to bark orders! As a NCO with that kind of character ou will fail down your path of success!

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Nov 18 at 2015 8:29 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Wed, 18 Nov 2015 20:29:12 -0500

If it looks wrong, it probably is wrong. One does not go parading on post with a mixture of civilian and military clothes.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 10 at 2015 1:01 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:01:41 -0500

Seen that happen before and it's happened to me. Local/ Base Policy or your Commanders discretion. Or stand at parade rest and Roger that.

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Oct 15 at 2017 6:26 AM

SSgt Boyd Herrst — Sun, 15 Oct 2017 06:26:55 -0400

Give it benefit of doubt, follow along, see what Reg says. I would say avoid the hassle and bring along another shirt . That easy..